Star Trek

If people have the right to discriminate, then I have the right to disciminate against somebody who discriminates against gays.

If the Constitution does not other wise protect the rights of gays, it also does not specifically allow discrimination against gays.

Yes, caltrek, you have the right in a free market system to discriminate against anyone with beliefs offensive to yours, and of course this specifically applies to those that discriminate against homosexuals. In fact, this method is a form of peer pressure, a powerful regulatory measure under the free market that often gets trampled over and watered down by goverment intervention.

The Constitution does not protect the rights of gays in so far as it does not protect the rights of groups. The Constitution protects the rights of individuals. Groups do not have rights; indivduals have rights. Affording rights to groups amounts to favoritism. The problem is that government gets involved into matters that are beyond its Constitution decree.

Lostshaker,

I mostly agree. The rub comes in trying to sort out what it means to say "the rights of individuals" versus the "rights of goups".  If individuals belong to certain groups, when are you protecting their rights as individuals, and when are you protecting the "rights" of the group.

Not that I am disagreeing with you, just pointing out a complicating factor.

caltrek, the matter is simple. Groups have no rights, it could otherwise lead to a situation where an individual has two votes - one vote as an individual, and one vote as a member of a favored group. Groups are the result of individuals choosing to voluntarily associate. It stands to reason that the reverse is also true, that individuals within the group can organize to voluntarily exclude others, even those individuals within their circle. In any case, the group doesn't act, but individuals act within a group context.

And whenever an individual joins a group, the individual voluntarily accepts the rules of that group (this is of course based on the assumption of free assocation and not a government mandate).

Lostshaker:  So how does your reasoning apply to the Citizens United ruling?

It's like Obama telling churches who they must hire....  Or telling the Boy Scouts that they must include girls.

I know that a lot of people don't believe in absolutes, but they do exist.  Morality (right & wrong), in the opinion of religious people, is not man-made - it was created by God.  That means that when something is wrong, then we just can't deem it good and "accept" it.

But when it comes to organizations, like the Boy Scouts or a church, there are additional standards and homosexuality is against those standards.  Those standards are not hidden - they are well known and anyone that decides to join them agrees to abide by them.

If a religion is not allowed to abide by the standards set by God, then what's the point of a religion?

I don't mean to attack, just to point out that there are some misconceptions about this topic and your post caught my eye. Sorry! 

You aren't born a Christian, or a Pagan or an Atheist for that matter. Sexuality is not a choice, it's like being born with green eyes-it is just who you are, now tendancies and fetishes stem from psychological  and enviromental factors. A bi-sexual (a real one not a GGW one) is just born with a higher capasity to love. Genetics tell us that we are attracted to those who resemble ourselves, so if someone is wired differently how does that constitute as a "choice"?

 I also want to say that anyone in love with ST and the Federation-it's values, would have an obvious answer to the question.  I mean TOS had a black woman, among the other ethnicities incorperated into it's design. It was and always has had that deeper meaning,anyone who dreams of a future so progressed should have a ridiculously difficult time justifing how intolerance is accecptable- I'm almost in shock that the poll was on this site. It's funny I should happen upon this poll right now; I'm actually watching DS9: Far beyond the Stars! Weird. Anyways, this is more suited for a Star Wars discussion, seeing as how it's placed a LONG TIME AGO in a galaxy far far away and promotes the war like endevors of intolerance-My major argument for ST/SW. Just saying.... 

In truth, there are nothing wrong with gays. They are in fact nice people. A friend of mine is gay, and he's cool (and a trekkie). Frankly, most of the prejudices against gays come from religion. But, in this case, religion is wrong. In truth, if you are gay, there's nothing wrong with you. Sure, you're a little different, but difference is good. In fact, in Star Trek, equality and acceptance are constantly taught. That, I agree with. But in truth, diversity shouldn't be hated, it should be endorsed. And anti-gay activists preach not marital diversity, but marital homogeny, based on what it says in the Bible. As an atheist, I don't believe it. Not that I'm bashing Christianity or other religions, but what I'm saying is that people need to be accepted, and if those who work against acceptance are "bigoted and clsoe-minded", then I belive they are fools.

Much better said than my mess-  Do you think I'm too aggressive? 

I never would have thought, before reading the boards, that Trekkies could be so argumentative! But then again, I have little to no ST discussion with anyone in person, that I haven't been the super geek in (or explaining Star Trek for that matter) around here. Where's the love?

And, in contrast here I'm like pre-K in most conversations. I get so excited and passionate when I talk at you guys, Complete SPAZZ attacks! And then, I sound like an idiot.. I'M SO ALONE! lmao

Homosexuality is a religion?

What's interesting about the timing of this thread is that Anti-Bullying "spokesman" and "It Gets Better" founder Dan Savage just came out and gave a speech, bashing (bullying) the Bible and Christians....

Sad that this duplicity isn't shown for what it is...