Star Trek

Sorry, but it makes it absolulty nothing.Its a different ship, from a different universe/timeline/hisdtory.

Theres no way to logically make a honest comparison.

or, the dates used on DS9 are wrong.........but that can swing both way

Weak theory there. "Purgatory's Shadow" is midway through the season.  The stardate wouldn't be in the 800's yet if we follow the trend of every other season.  That would make every stardate wrong in the entire season afterwards.  

Its not a weak theory at all, certinly not as weak as the comparison you tried to make.

The one solid fact is that someone screwed up, the writers, and the stardate system isint with out its flaws,inconsistancies snd plain old mistakes.

Don't know where that magical math comes from.  You're pretending to know how stardates work here. just going by the best estimates.

I'm not pretending to know anything for sure....just going by best estimates.

50485.2 best estimate translates into June 27,  2373

50564.2 best estimate translates into  July 25,  2373 

Looking at a clander for that year, puts the 2 dates at 2 days shy of 5 weeks.

Don't forget the battle damage from First Contact.  They would need enough time for the Defiant to be operational again for episode "Purgatory's Shadow"

ther ship being in operation in tht episode is irrelevent.We we're talking about if it was fully functinal at the Borg attack.

Assuming you knew how stardates worked.  They may have sent the Defiant limping into battle for the sake of saving Earth.  That's why the Defiant may not have performed as well in battle as it could have in First Contact.

ssuming I'm right about the time, then the ship should have been fully repaired in time for the Borg attack.

It's a fact that it's theoretically possible unless you can prove that it's logically impossible.

anything is possible

That's a stretch. 

No, your argument has been a stretch, and its because it has nothing in the way of solid evidence, just your interpretation of what was seen.

If we can't judge something by how it looks then what are we supposed to use? 

Solid evidence.Something that tells us we can expect the same level of advsancedment between universes, which we already know we cant. 

Use that comparison if you don't like the "yesterday's enterprise" one. 

Oh, dont get me wrong, the Defient class beats a Galaxy class, my only point was that your comparison didnt make that argument.

i wont take sides on this.

I said "universer/timeline/history becvause in this case, the terms are pretty interchangable....and in those 22 years a great many differences are possible.Millions could have lived and died that never did in the original flow of time.

It's still similar from its clasification name, appearance, crew.

None of which is relevent to whats in debate.

There are probably a few minor differences. 

and there are probably a million major differences.Since neither of us can say which is actully the case, all your comparisons hold no water.

We werent told enough about the specs of that battleship, it is probably superior to the prime Enterprise-D , but its just as likely its infierer.With out any solod evidence to use, your comparing the Defiant to this battle ship is a total waste of time because your argumernt doesnt have a soliod leg to stand on

Yup it's pretty weak

if its week then you have failed to demenstrate how.

Bottom liner, I can cite quite a few mistakes,changes,inconsistacies, that have poped up over the years.Not to mention other types of mistakes.Theres no way you can point to either one and logically claim that one is the mistake and not the other.Sure, its easier to accept Picards diaslog as the mistake, but just because its easier doesnt mean its the right answer.

Fail.  You said 5 weeks passed between the Virus and Borg Attack.

Your right, I did make a mistake , best estimate puts it at 28 days between events, thats eactly 4 weeks.

In episode "Inquisition", Bashir tells Sloan he was in a prison camp for 37 days (though he tells O'Brian 4 weeks in episode "By Inferno's Light").  Bashir was still wearing the older style uniform then.  We saw the crew of the Defiant wearing the newer style uniforms.  That means that the events of First Contact must have taken place within the last 5 weeks prior to episode "In Purgatory's Shadow". 

which further confuses the issue.

I also dont see much evidence in the uniform change.In the past, we have seen that not every ship/base makes changes at the same time.Maybe the ship Bashier was tsaken from was still useing the older uniforms and he used his old uniform to blend in.

We saw Sisko do something similar when he returned to HQ twise.

If the events of First Contact occured within the previous 2 weeks prior to "In Purgatory's Shadow" it would still be recovering from the memory core being wiped in episode "For the Uniform".   My claim was "The Defiant may not have been at optimal condition in First Contact either since it happened around the time Eddington wiped its memory core.".  It's a reasonable claim, like it or not.

Your right, I stand informed.I salute you in this case.

there is nothing solid, it's a tv show.

I ment as solid as we can get for a work of fiction.That would mean something stated that casnt be debated or that depends on the point of view of the viewer.

In this case that wold mean dialogue, visuals are too interpative.

based on what? 

Based on the fact that its not the same ship, that it comes from a timeline that may have millions upon millions of differences that we cant even begin to imasgine.

And I did indeedd give an argument.I pointed out the ship was from a different reality.Thats all that was needed.

The characters wouldnt really be aware of if they are in a different timeline, or a different pre-esisting universe.And like I said before, in this case the terms are pretty interchangable since once history was chasnged, the universe was no longer the same as it was before.

I think it is relevant since it shows the writer's intent to keep most things that are familiar to the series constant between timelines so the audience is not too lost. 

I'm really sorry if this sounds rude, but plain and simple fact is that its not relevent.Not even the writers intentions are relevent.Anything the writers may have written in the script, said in interviews, revealed in their "behind the scenes" books, NONE of that is relevent in this type of debate.

Only what is directly,and clearly stated in the series is of relevence.

Guinan identifies that Enterprise-D as the same from the prime universe. 

No, she identified it as the same and all being WRONG....which isint really possible.

Wesley was born 4 years after the Enterprise-C went to the future yet 4 years of altered history did not prevent him from being conceived.  It should have.

correction....It COULD have.

The different timeline stuff is just semantics to the overall point.

again, your argument on that doesnt have a solid leg to stasnd on.Its soley based on how you precieved the events.Its not semantics, its just a very poor example to use.

But the crew of the defiant in the First Contact movie were wearing the new uniforms.  That ship was from DS9.  DS9 crew members started wearing the new uniforms in Episode "Rapture", four episodes prior to "In Purgatory's Shadow".  That suggests that it's very likely not a case of a quick uniform change.  It was the writer's intent to show he was taken before the uniforms were changed, not after.

again ,writer intent is worthless.

Those episodes suggest nothing of the sort.So the Defient crew had the new uniforms, so most of the ships/crews we saw had the new uniforms, that doesnt mean every ship,every base, every outpost were all doing the same.

Like I said, we have seen slow uniform turn overs before.Its quite likely that was still the case

Not what I asked.  You said the Defiant would defeat a galaxy class starship in a battle and I asked what that was based on. 

Excuse me, I misunderstood you.

I would say thats based on how and what we saw of both ships capabilities within the prime universe, particulary much of what we saw in the Dominion war.

Thats an assumption that cant be proven.Theres a good chance that every devergent timerline has a similar signiture but off by 1 point.

Just like the Enterprise-D could have just happened to be in the same position in both timelines once history got changed.

I dont see your point here.The postion of the ship was never in debate.

You’re still talking about that? :-o I made a similar comparison with the Defiant vs Voyager that you didn’t object to:

must of missed that, been tired lately.Sorry.

 “We saw the Defiant take on a starfleet ship in episode "Paradise Lost" and win. I think the battle between Voyager and the Defiant would look something like that.”

that ship was the Lakota right?

 Anyway, as a recurring theme of the thread the overall point went over your head.  Here’s what the point is:  Based on every battle I’ve seen the Enterprise-D in, I predict that the Enterprise-D in the prime universe would not look much different than what was shown in “yesterday’s enterprise”.  In comparison with the defiant battling in “way of the warrior”, the Defiant is superior in battle.

Your point didnt go over my head, its just the comparison useing yesterdas Enterprise D doesnt help the theroy.

Sure it does, they only started wearing the new uniforms 4 episodes earlier to when we saw the real bashir.  That fits fine with the amount of time that had past in the previous 4 episodes as far as Odo and dr. mora examining  baby changling for over a week as stated in dialogue and kira’s pregnancy due in 3 weeks as stated in “darkness and the light” and then having the baby in the next episode.  With enough examining of the episodes, it can probably be proven that the DS9 crew was wearing the old style uniforms 37 days prior to the episode “purgatory’s shadow” anyway.  It’s just too obvious to dismiss.

No, its not suggestive at all.like I said, its possible Bashier traveled on a ship that wasnt in the new uniforms yet.He likely would have worn the old style, like Sisko did when he would go to HQ on earth.

BTW, since you mentioned it, the episode with the chasngaling baby, do you feel that was the real Bashier or the shape shifter?

The Emporer’s ship nearly defeated the Defiant in episode “Shattered Mirror”

Different universe again, why mention it?

All the main bridge officers were killed aboard the USS Valiant (defiant class) against a cardassian battle cruiser leaving the ship adrift. 

I dont recall them saying the ship was adrift, but I would say that was due more to the crew not expecting to see basttle.

Then later the Valiant was easily defeated by a Jem’Hadar battleship.  What makes you so sure the Enterprise-D would not defeat the Defiant too then?

We've seen Galaxy class ships have problems fighting JemHadar fighterts [the small ones] I wouldnt excpect it to take a JH battleship either.

I dont see how your comparisons are related to the debate at hand.

The ISS Defiant was based specifically on the plans for the prime one. So assuming those plans were followed to the letter (which we can only speculate about), it should have the same capabilities as the USS Defiant.

And if I recall correctly, Watters did say that the Valiant was left adrift after fighting the Cardassians. They had to race to get the ship working again before the Cardassians.

Based on that clip..............I' would say that a Galaxy class casn be refited to taske on a Defient class, but the Enterprise D was destroied before such a refit was possible.

The enterprise D , as it was, wouldnt be able to take the Defient.

As for the Lakota..........she held her own but to me the evidence suggest she woulds have lost had the defient also chosen to imploy quantum torpedoes, which the Defient also had.

The Defient only had 2 dead 7 injured after the battle with the Lakota.

The Lakota had almost 24 dead/injured, seems to me the Lakota suffered more damage in the fight.

thats kool bud.

Debatable, but I dont want to have that debaste.

The Enterprise-D can fire multiple phasers and photons at once as seen in "best of both worlds".  All they would have to do is punch a whole in the defiants shields and beam a security team on the defiant then arrest the 50 or so people onboard.

the Defient can do the same with its weapons, and getting trew the defients sheilds is no easy task as the fight with the Lakata shows.

Which ship would Worf be on anyway?

I prefer him on the Defient.

normally you might have a case..........but that year was the year starfleet started making large upgrades because of the dominion.

It wasnt till the end of DS9 season 3/start of season 4 that such major upgrades/refits were being done.

Sorry, its not likele the D recieved such a refit before it was destroyed.And even with the refit its not certin the D would win.

But with out it, Enterprise-D looses.

If worse came to worse, how would the defiant defend itself if they decided to evacuate to the saucer section, seperate, and then collide into the defiant with the Enterprise-D's drive section?

I doubt Sisko, in a "to the death" battle, would allow any apposing ships the use of theie engines.He would hasve disabled them before that point.

anything is possdible, but its just not likely and we saw no evidence of it.

If starfleet was already re-fitting its ships to that degree, OBrien and Worf wouldnt have been so shocked at the csapasbilities of the Lakota.

Also we can see that the Enterprise-D did have a refit in the future time period during episode "all good things"

Which is irrelevent since that did not come to pass.

Just like the Enterprise wouldn't allow its engines to be disabled if it was their intention to collide with the Defiant.

The Enterprise has had its engins disabled at times.  

Not that such a measure is needed.  The Enterprise-D has more manpower, size advantage, more phasers emitters.

Ship ad crew size isint a solid advantage., and more phasers emitters isint going to help if the Defient knocks out the phaser relays [techno babble]

I hope this has been fun for you, its been keeping my mind of troubles, so thanks

ok, in that kind of case I'd give the D a better chance.

Voyager was launched before the Enterprise D was destroyed.

So, theres no reason it has to be from the future.

Enterprise is bigger, has a more experienced crew, but as Janeway said, Voyager is "quick and smart", with the added manuverability, along with the goodies they brought back with them from the Delta quadrant, could well give them the edge in a firefight.

However, if it came to a boarding party situation, the Enterprise crew vastly outnumbers that of Voyager.