Star Trek

OK vorta I see what you are saying, but is the gravity they are experiencing the gravity from regulate space-time, or the space-time that they are inhabiting. Either way I stall don't believe that center points weapon can effect a ship equipped with a phasing cloak.

The gravity is from regular space-time, as the phased object / being is affected by unphased objects. If they can be affected by gravity then they can be affected by the Centrepoint weapon as it manipulates gravity on vast scales.

Also, if any changes that are done o the timeline through flow walking is fixed by the force, it is because it is a force based technique. But as all trek based time travel methods are not connected to the force then why would the force fix any changes made by those methods.

I don't think that follows; the changes being made themselves don't have anything to do with the Force, they're made by the flow-walker doing mundane things (in Tahiri's case, having the final kiss she never had with her dead lover). The process is described by the Aiin-Tii as using the Force to follow the 'flow' of time (the two being intertwined); if you make any changes to the timeline the flow is 'diverted', but once you leave, the Force makes the flow snap back to its original 'course'. I'm not sure therefore why the Force would not do the same for any other violation of the 'flow'; the only thing it seems ok with are predestination paradoxes.

I will also point out that you admitted that those changes that were fixed were minor changes, so there is no guarantee that large changes, like those made by the krenim weapon for instance, could be fixed by the force.

The size of the change was never stated to be a factor - Darth Caedus has no worries when he's with Tahiri that they'll affect the timeline at all for the reasoning regarding the Force's influence on the flow of time given above (although he makes her believe otherwise). Indeed, were this not the case, the plot of the Fate of Jedi series would have never existed as Caedus would simply have used flow-walking to reshape the galaxy as he saw fit by changing the timeline at will.

Is there really any doubt? The Borg would kick their collective tookases (or is that tooki?)

First off, in "the next phase" geordi tells ro that a true passing cloak would be u effected by the gravity of this things the ship was bidding in (ie planets, moons, ect). In fact their situation in that episode could have been a result of the radiation coming off of the device, mixed with the transporter effect. So in retrospect I see no reason that the gravity blast issued from center point would effect a ship equipped with a fully functional phasing cloak, while the device is activated.

I can't find a reference in The Next Phase to what you're describing; I've searched for the word "gravity"and variations thereof in the transcript but there don't seem to be any. Also, as Cochrane and Lucifer pointed out earlier, we know that they are affected by gravity in a normal fashion simply because we see them being affected by it and not floating around the ship weightless. If they're affected by gravity, they will be affected by Centrepoint.

Second, then by your own admittion flow walking is not true time travel, and as the aing-tii have no experience with true time travel their explanation would not apply to those other forms of time travel, and therefore you have nothing to back up you claim with.

I haven't said that it was not true time travel; it is, it is simply that any changes you make are undone and the timeline reset by the Force. The Aing-Tii's exlpanation of how it works is not simply the mechanics of the flow-walking power but an understanding of how the Force interacts with time in general.

Lastly, of course the size f the change was not mentioned to be a factor, as the aing-tii used it as a tool of the force, and jacen only used it for short trips to the past and future, while would anyone consider that the bigger the change the more likely the change to be permanent.

That's the thing though; Caedus specifically says that he doesn't have to worry about causing massive timeline alterations as the Force resets changes - were this not the case, the plot of the Legacy of the Force series would be nonsensical as Caedus could have simply flow-walked back and reshaped the universe as he saw fit (especially after each set-back he suffers) rather than have to follow his complex plot.

Additionally, the Aing-Tii most certainly would have mentioned to the people they teach flow-walking to that they have the potential of screwing up the timeline, especially given their views on living in harmony with the Force and not using it merely as a tool.

I'd suggest that in this case burden of proof should really fall to you to provide evidence that bigger timeline changes can be permanent; what I have mentioned above would seem to argue against this however.

I believe that the gravity experienced by Ro and Geordi was because of the transporter malfunction, and that a phased ship, such as the Enterprise in The Pegasus, would not be affected by gravity. Similarly, any ship out of phase would not affect gravity, and thus, it would not be possible to target (even if it were possible to hit).

About time travel... Flow walking may or may not be "actual time travel". I do not believe it is, and I think that it has more to do with the Force effect experienced by Lak Sivrak after his death. Anyway, in the Star Wars universe, there HAVE been incidents of true time travel. These have created permanent changes to the timeline, most as predestination, if not bootstrap paradoxes.

I can't find a reference in The Next Phase to what you're describing; I've searched for the word "gravity"and variations thereof in the transcript but there don't seem to be any. Also, as Cochrane and Lucifer pointed out earlier, we know that they are affected by gravity in a normal fashion simply because we see them being affected by it and not floating around the ship weightless. If they're affected by gravity, they will be affected by Centrepoint.

Vorta why don't you actually try watching the episode in question (or this clip from the episode. Geordi mentions planetary bodies, which means that the cloak would have to be outsidem of the gravitational fields that planetary body, whether it be an actual planet or a moon, gives off, otherwise the crew would be crushed to death.

I will also point out that it appears that cochrane agrees with me on this one (if i am wrong cochrane please let me know). Whether it was the radiation from the damaged interphase device, the transporter, or some combination of the two Geordi and Ro were phased in a different way then the enterprise was in "Pegasus" so that they would effected by the artificial gravity on both ships.

Additionally, the Aing-Tii most certainly would have mentioned to the people they teach flow-walking to that they have the potential of screwing up the timeline, especially given their views on living in harmony with the Force and not using it merely as a tool.

And what would be the point of doing that if all changes are not permanent. Again I will point out that the Aing-tii have no knowledge of other forms of time travel other then flow walking.

I'd suggest that in this case burden of proof should really fall to you to provide evidence that bigger timeline changes can be permanent; what I have mentioned above would seem to argue against this however.

It is a case of simple logic (or at least as simple as time travel paradox’s ever get). Let go with Tahiri’s change that she kissed Anikan before he died. There is no lasting ramafications to this event, as it did not allow anikan to survive the battle, nor did it force Tahiri to run out and join him in his last stand. In the end all it would lead to is less regret on Tahiri’s part.

Now lets go under the assumption that instead of wanting to kiss anikan for one last time Tahiri instead chose to stop those two darksiders from stealing their ship. Had she done this Anikan and the rest of the assult force would have escaped, Jacen would never have met Verger and started on his path to the dark side, or let them to Zonama Sekot, the dark nest incident would never have happened, Anikan might have played an important role in the final battles of the war, and Jacen would never have betraid the jedi (just to name a few events).

In the end it would be much easier for the force to change Tahiri’s kiss rather then her stopping the theft of the ship, as it would have less ramafiactions to the future.

About time travel... Flow walking may or may not be "actual time travel". I do not believe it is, and I think that it has more to do with the Force effect experienced by Lak Sivrak after his death. Anyway, in the Star Wars universe, there HAVE been incidents of true time travel. These have created permanent changes to the timeline, most as predestination, if not bootstrap paradoxes.

Can you explain some of these events, and though i am very familar withthe predestination paradox i cannot say the same about a bootstrap paradox.

Camorite:

Additionally, the Aing-Tii most certainly would have mentioned to the people they teach flow-walking to that they have the potential of screwing up the timeline, especially given their views on living in harmony with the Force and not using it merely as a tool.

And what would be the point of doing that if all changes are not permanent.

That's the point though; the fact that the Aiing-Tii don't teach this only makes sense if all changes are not permanent. If as you're arguing some changes are permanent then the Aing-Tii would most certainly have mentioned this for the reason given above.

Again I will point out that the Aing-tii have no knowledge of other forms of time travel other then flow walking.

That isn't really relevant however; they understand how time interacts with the Force and how the Force reacts to timeline changes.

...In the end it would be much easier for the force to change Tahiri’s kiss rather then her stopping the theft of the ship, as it would have less ramafiactions to the future.

That isn't how it's explained in the book though; Caedus tells Tahiri that they have to be careful of not causing major timeline changes that would upset the fabric of reality while the reader is presented with him thinking to himself that what he is telling her is a lie and that there was no danger of that happening due to the Force resetting any changes back to the original "flow" of time.

There is no evidence that the Force is unable to revert large timeline alterations; additionally, and this doesn't seem to have been addressed yet, the plot of the Legacy of the Force series would be nonsensical if flow-walking was able to permanently affect the timeline as Caedus could have simply flow-walked back and reshaped the universe as he saw fit (especially after each set-back he suffers) rather than having to follow his complex plot.

Cochrane and Camorite:

The molecular phase inverter is described as changing a subject's molecules so that normal matter and energy will pass through them; gravity is neither however and so should theoretically remain unaffected. This does not impact a phase cloaked ship's ability to hide inside a planet; the gravitational forces of a planet will not affect them adversely (especially with the shields and hull integrity of a starship) as long as they don't go right into the core, which is obviously not a necessity for hiding inside a planet.

There is nothing in the episode to indicate that the transporter has somehow altered the phase inversion process to make them susceptible to gravity nor why or how it could do that in the first place; when Geordi first realises they have been phased, he makes no mention at all of what would otherwise be a major anomaly.

Regarding flow-walking being "real" time travel, there doesn't seem to be anything to indicate that it is not - you don't just view the past, you can actually interact with it (and even leave a permanent imprint on it as long as you don't do anything to change the timeline), and there would be no reason for the Force to have to "revert" the flow of the timeline were the flow-walker not actually having an impact on the timeline in any way.

As Cochrane says, the only confirmed incidences of time travel in Star Wars have been predestination paradoxes and boot-strap paradoxes (an object or piece of information that exists without being created - for example, I am given the blueprints for a time-machine from my future self, then years later build the time-machine and use it to give the blueprints to my earlier past self; who invented the time machine?). In these cases there is no actual alteration of a timeline (the incidences are closed time loops), so the Force would not need to intervene as it does in flow-walking.

How can you leave a permanent imprint on the the past without changing the timeline? A predestination paradox DOES change the timeline. If, say, someone goes back in time and gives themselves the blueprint for the time machine, then that someone is in a new timeline than if they had never used  created the time machine. You change the timeline by not changing it! In the case of Mace Windu and the Carthasian "Orb of Passage", for example, the Force would have changed the timeline back to a state where no time travel had occured, simply by making the Orb of Passage never have existed, and  thus, the timeline would not have included time travel. Thus, the Force can only affect time travel caused by the Force.

On cloaking, the artificial gravity of the Pegasus was unaffected, despite the fact that it was INSIDE AN ASTEROID! I believe that this is because about half of it was phased into the asteroid. The Pegasus was not exactly ship-shape and Bristol fashion, and Riker and Pressman beamed in easily, so the shields were down. Matter is what creates gravity!

Cochrane:

A predestination paradox actually doesn't change the timeline - indeed this is one of its core traits, that any things that a time traveller does in the past are not changes but have always been present in that timeline, hence why it is named "predestination".

This is incidentally how a flow-walker can leave an imprint on the past, by doing something that does not alter the timeline and thus will not require the Force to correct - for example, Jacen Solo flow-walks back in time to a shuttle crash to see if anyone survived, and is seen by one of the survivors. Back in the present, they eventually bump into the survivor, who recounts seeing Jacen Solo during the shuttle crash, and it is a thus a predestination paradox - the Force did not have to alter the timeline back because the timeline always contained Jacen Solo travelling back and being seen. Conversely, when Tahiri flow-walks back to kiss her deceased lover the final kiss she promised him but they never got to have, it is a change in the timeline - in the original timeline Tahiri knows this never took place - and therefore her change is reverted by the Force.

Similarly the Orb of Passage is both a boot-strap paradox and a predestination paradox; the Orb has always existed in a closed time loop and Mace Windu was always supposed to travel back in time. As above, the time travelling does not alter the timeline and so does not need correction from the Force.

Regarding cloaking, the Pegasus asteroid is not massive enough that being inside it would create gravitational forces that would overwhelm a ship's defences; indeed, even with no shields and power, the parts of the ship that had not re-emerged in rock remained largely intact.