spydertrek GROUP: Members POSTS: 149  |
Report this
May. 01 2012, 9:31 am
In truth, the real answer is: We're all nerds. |
cochrane2063 GROUP: Members POSTS: 202  |
Report this
May. 01 2012, 8:31 pm
Quote: Vorta_the_point @ May. 01 2012, 6:21 am | >
>I don't believe the timeship can erase an entire planet - it can everything on the surface of a planet, but even Annorax stops short of saying it can erase an entire celestial body, putting "civilisations" as its upper limit.
>The problem with the Valley is that the planet's civilisation didn't have any impact on its creation; even if they really could have erased the entire planet, the battle between the Jedi and Sith that created the nexus would have simply taken place on a different world. In order to erase the Valley you would have to erase quite a large number of disparate factors to prevent that scenario occuring, none of which have terribly obvious incursion points.
>There's also the issue of whether the timeship would be able to pull this off without itself being destroyed by Darths Nihilus and /or Sidious.
>The telepath idea would work for finding the location, but it falls into similar problems as the other schemes - Star Trek has to first know of the existence of the Valley to start to search for it and would have to know who was present there in order to look for things they've made... and carry all this out before the Star Wars galaxy can ascend their first Jedi/Sith.
> |
Good point on the telepath and the time ship. However, if you go back in time (using the various ways that have been used in Trek) and use the Xindi weapon to destroy the planet during or immediately before the Jedi-Sith battle... then the Valley and the Force Nexus are destroyed. Do you really expect that no one in the ST universe is going to realize where every available resource of the SW galaxy is headed to protect? I haven't read the books about this Valley of the Jedi or whatever, but I doubt it's the one place worth protecting in the galaxy. If the forces of the SW galaxy are all there, then what about Coruscant, Corellia, etc.? I'd love to see those get assimilated. Just think about the manpower (alienpower? Borg power?) that would generate. Also, no one has mentioned this, but holographic and superior cloaking tech could be a huge tactical advantage.
"We keep doing each other favors."
"Isn't that how alliances are born?"
Jonathan Archer and Thy'lek Shran
|
Vorta_the_point GROUP: Members POSTS: 624 |
Report this
May. 03 2012, 3:55 pm
The Centrepoint Station and Galaxy Gun superweapons are able to target anywhere in the galaxy (with the former being able to wipe out whole fleets in a single shot and being a good contender for a weapon that could destroy V'Ger); in addition to their covering fire so to speak, I wouldn't think you'd literally need everything in the Star Wars galaxy converged on the Valley of the Jedi, only a selection of the most potent weapon systems / beings.
Cloaking technology can be countered by Crystal Gravfield Traps which detect the gravity fluctuations of an object (and thus counter cloaked vessels) and dedicated Force users' ability sensing presences.
Time travel however (like what you propose to destroy the Valley of the Jedi) does not have an obvious counter outside of interference from cosmic beings (though one assumes they would be too busy dedicating their energies full-time to negate interference from Star Trek's own cosmic beings to be able to do any of their own).
The only possibility that might hamper this is that in the Star Wars galaxy, it's theorised that time travel is actually prohibitted by the Force; the Aing-Tii, a race of Force users who developed the ability to "flow-walk" through time using the Force, believed that they were unable to permanently affect the past - while they could alter people's perception of events (they would gain some confused memories of a different event, kind of like a temporal mind trick), any actual changes they made would be undone by the Force restoring the original "flow" of time. There was speculation that one of their number might have overcome this limitation, but it was never conclusively proved whether he was a fraud or not. |
Camorite GROUP: Members POSTS: 5508  |
Report this
May. 03 2012, 5:22 pm
Vorta you are wrong on the cloaking. Phasing cloaks take the ship out of sinc with the space time of all other objects, thus allowing the ship or person to move trough other items. As this also works with energy, as seen when Ro shot Riker through the head with a romulon disruptor in "the next phase", the center point weapon would be useless against ships equipped with the device.
As for force users, as the people on the cloaked ship are out of phase with everything else it is highly unlikely that they could be senced. At most the Jedi/sith would feel a disturbance in the force, but nothing else.
Also the subject of flow walking, flow walking is not true time traveling, as the person can only remain outside their own time period for short periods off time. True tine travel is being able to go to another time for an indefinite period of time (anywhere from hours to days to years) and still not having to return until the traveler has either, in most cases, completed a task or are able to recreate the circumstances that took them out of their time in the firstplace.
"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12
|
|
cochrane2063 GROUP: Members POSTS: 202 |
Report this
May. 03 2012, 9:11 pm
Quote: Camorite @ May. 03 2012, 5:22 pm | >Vorta you are wrong on the cloaking. Phasing cloaks take the ship out of sinc with the space time of all other objects, thus allowing the ship or person to move trough other items. As this also works with energy, as seen when Ro shot Riker through the head with a romulon disruptor in "the next phase", the center point weapon would be useless against ships equipped with the device. As for force users, as the people on the cloaked ship are out of phase with everything else it is highly unlikely that they could be senced. At most the Jedi/sith would feel a disturbance in the force, but nothing else. Also the subject of flow walking, flow walking is not true time traveling, as the person can only remain outside their own time period for short periods off time. True tine travel is being able to go to another time for an indefinite period of time (anywhere from hours to days to years) and still not having to return until the traveler has either, in most cases, completed a task or are able to recreate the circumstances that took them out of their time in the firstplace. |
Maybe the flow-walking thing is like that one TOS episode where somehow traveling through time necessitated certain physiological changes. Anyway, the phase cloak was a failure, wasn't it? That's why the Romulan ship broke down and needed the Enterprise to rescue it. (I hated that episode, anyway. How were Ro and Geordi able to stand, and on what?) Speaking of which, they must have been affected by gravity. Otherwise they would just have been floating.
"We keep doing each other favors."
"Isn't that how alliances are born?"
Jonathan Archer and Thy'lek Shran
|
___Lucifer___ GROUP: Members POSTS: 1142 |
Report this
May. 03 2012, 9:36 pm
^^He's talking about the Pegasus, and it worked successfully. That's how the Enterprise D got out of the asteroid.
flow walking is not true time traveling
If you effect lasting changes in the timeline and are able accomplish a certain objective, it's still legitimate temporal interference. I'm not super familiar with flow walking but I know a No True Scotsman when I see it.
Speaking of which, they must have been affected by gravity.
This is true, and the Empire has Interdictor cruisers that can create gravity wells so intense they literally warp local space-time, rendering hyperdrives unable to drop into hyperspace.
|
|
Camorite GROUP: Members POSTS: 5508 |
Report this
May. 04 2012, 1:55 am
Quote: cochrane2063 @ May. 03 2012, 9:11 pm | Quote: Camorite @ May. 03 2012, 5:22 pm | >Vorta you are wrong on the cloaking. Phasing cloaks take the ship out of sinc with the space time of all other objects, thus allowing the ship or person to move trough other items. As this also works with energy, as seen when Ro shot Riker through the head with a romulon disruptor in "the next phase", the center point weapon would be useless against ships equipped with the device. As for force users, as the people on the cloaked ship are out of phase with everything else it is highly unlikely that they could be senced. At most the Jedi/sith would feel a disturbance in the force, but nothing else. Also the subject of flow walking, flow walking is not true time traveling, as the person can only remain outside their own time period for short periods off time. True tine travel is being able to go to another time for an indefinite period of time (anywhere from hours to days to years) and still not having to return until the traveler has either, in most cases, completed a task or are able to recreate the circumstances that took them out of their time in the firstplace. |
Maybe the flow-walking thing is like that one TOS episode where somehow traveling through time necessitated certain physiological changes. Anyway, the phase cloak was a failure, wasn't it? That's why the Romulan ship broke down and needed the Enterprise to rescue it. (I hated that episode, anyway. How were Ro and Geordi able to stand, and on what?) Speaking of which, they must have been affected by gravity. Otherwise they would just have been floating. |
As Lucifer already pointed out, the federation had a working phasing cloak. And back on the subject of flow walking, which tos episode was that? When I think of flow walking I actually think more of the ds9 episode where O'Brien is able to do short jumps into the future.
"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12
|
|
cochrane2063 GROUP: Members POSTS: 202 |
Report this
May. 04 2012, 2:53 pm
Quote: Camorite @ May. 04 2012, 1:55 am | Quote: cochrane2063 @ May. 03 2012, 9:11 pm | Quote: Camorite @ May. 03 2012, 5:22 pm | >
>Vorta you are wrong on the cloaking. Phasing cloaks take the ship out of sinc with the space time of all other objects, thus allowing the ship or person to move trough other items. As this also works with energy, as seen when Ro shot Riker through the head with a romulon disruptor in "the next phase", the center point weapon would be useless against ships equipped with the device. As for force users, as the people on the cloaked ship are out of phase with everything else it is highly unlikely that they could be senced. At most the Jedi/sith would feel a disturbance in the force, but nothing else. Also the subject of flow walking, flow walking is not true time traveling, as the person can only remain outside their own time period for short periods off time. True tine travel is being able to go to another time for an indefinite period of time (anywhere from hours to days to years) and still not having to return until the traveler has either, in most cases, completed a task or are able to recreate the circumstances that took them out of their time in the firstplace. |
Maybe the flow-walking thing is like that one TOS episode where somehow traveling through time necessitated certain physiological changes. Anyway, the phase cloak was a failure, wasn't it? That's why the Romulan ship broke down and needed the Enterprise to rescue it. (I hated that episode, anyway. How were Ro and Geordi able to stand, and on what?) Speaking of which, they must have been affected by gravity. Otherwise they would just have been floating.
|
As Lucifer already pointed out, the federation had a working phasing cloak. And back on the subject of flow walking, which tos episode was that? When I think of flow walking I actually think more of the ds9 episode where O'Brien is able to do short jumps into the future. |
The episode was TOS: All Our Yesterdays. I have absolutely no idea about what flow walking is, I'm just talking about it based on what has been said. Looking it up now...
"We keep doing each other favors."
"Isn't that how alliances are born?"
Jonathan Archer and Thy'lek Shran
|
|
cochrane2063 GROUP: Members POSTS: 202 |
Report this
May. 04 2012, 3:03 pm
Apparently, flow-walking can only let you see the past, not change it. It can allow you to see into the future as well, and I assume that the future (at least the parts that you have a direct impact on) is thus changeable. However, this could easily be countered by traveling back in time to before the Aing-Tii developed flow-walking. While they could see into this time-period, they would not be able to change the past.
"We keep doing each other favors."
"Isn't that how alliances are born?"
Jonathan Archer and Thy'lek Shran
|
|
cochrane2063 GROUP: Members POSTS: 202 |
Report this
May. 04 2012, 3:06 pm
On the other hand, an Interdictor might be able to make time travel impossible as well. Just how localized is that effect?
"We keep doing each other favors."
"Isn't that how alliances are born?"
Jonathan Archer and Thy'lek Shran
|
|
Camorite GROUP: Members POSTS: 5508 |
Report this
May. 05 2012, 5:59 am
Quote: cochrane2063 @ May. 04 2012, 3:03 pm | Apparently, flow-walking can only let you see the past, not change it. It can allow you to see into the future as well, and I assume that the future (at least the parts that you have a direct impact on) is thus changeable. However, this could easily be countered by traveling back in time to before the Aing-Tii developed flow-walking. While they could see into this time-period, they would not be able to change the past. |
Or just use the kenem weapon to erase the aing-tii from resistance. Btw, you can change minor things so long as it does not impact the future (jacen did this to lure taheri to the dark side in the last series).
"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12
|
|
Camorite GROUP: Members POSTS: 5508 |
Report this
May. 05 2012, 6:02 am
Quote: cochrane2063 @ May. 04 2012, 3:06 pm | On the other hand, an Interdictor might be able to make time travel impossible as well. Just how localized is that effect? |
Or it could help with time travel as it would substitute the sun for time warp.
"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12
|
|
cochrane2063 GROUP: Members POSTS: 202 |
Report this
May. 05 2012, 9:36 am
True enough, for the slingshot effect. But would a Borg time-traveling device, or the ones Daniels and Braxton use, be possible to use? I'm actually not sure.
"We keep doing each other favors."
"Isn't that how alliances are born?"
Jonathan Archer and Thy'lek Shran
|
|
Vorta_the_point GROUP: Members POSTS: 624 |
Report this
May. 05 2012, 1:24 pm
Regarding phase cloaking - if as Cochrane and Lucifer say a phased object or person is subject to gravity, then they would be vulnerable to the Centrepoint Station weapon as it is a colossal gravity manipulator. I'm not sure why phased beings would be invisible to the Force though; they are out of phase with certain physical phenomenon, not the entire universe (indeed, a small number of Jedi have the extremely rare ability to phase through objects which obviously does not cut them off from the Force).
Regarding flow-walking, the ability does not merely allow you to view the past but to interact physically with it - the key point is that the Force reverts any changes you make to the timeline back to the original 'flow' (albeit affecting a person's memories of the event), hence the suggestion that trying to change history via time travel or the Krenim weapon would simply not work as the Force will automatically undo any changes made. Camorite, the changes Tahiri thought she was making were actually not sticking; Darth Caedus makes her believe they are able to change the timeline to seduce her, and she freaks out at him when she realises he's tricked her. |
|
Camorite GROUP: Members POSTS: 5508 |
Report this
May. 05 2012, 2:39 pm
OK vorta I see what you are saying, but is the gravity they are experiencing the gravity from regulate space-time, or the space-time that they are inhabiting. Either way I stall don't believe that center points weapon can effect a ship equipped with a phasing cloak.
Also, if any changes that are done o the timeline through flow walking is fixed by the force, it is because it is a force based technique. But as all trek based time travel methods are not connected to the force then why would the force fix any changes made by those methods.
I will also point out that you admitted that those changes that were fixed were minor changes, so there is no guarantee that large changes, like those made by the krenim weapon for instance, could be fixed by the force.
"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12
|
