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Regeneration

Broadstorm

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Report this Apr. 09 2012, 8:46 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Apr. 09 2012, 8:03 am

Quote: Broadstorm @ Apr. 09 2012, 12:26 am

>

>I agree that public knowledge would likely have caused a degree of panic (I would think the closest comparison would be a cold war with a threat looming for decades.), but giving officers of a certain rank & up classified knowledge as they have done with other things would have provided opportunities to learn more in situations when certain things are encountered.

whos to say that wasnt done?

maybe they felt only Admirals from the security brance were the best to knmow.

It has been a while since I have watched either Raven or Dark Frontier, but the ones mentioned by Annika's parents as having been debating the mission to study the Borg.  There was the Exobiology Council, and I believe one other mentioned. 

Which still doesnt mean either group had great knowlidge.Consider this senerio.

The Hansons have been collecting info and reports about the Borg for years.They approce the Coucil asking to go on the mission.The Council, not ever hearing of them before, believes the Hansons to be on a while goose chase.

But someone at 31 gets the idea that if they alow the Hansons to go, they might get lucking sand find proof, so they convince/manipulate the council to let the Hansons go.

There was even a scene with Annika playing with a small model of a cube. 

A mlodel I'm sure her parents made.

I realize that Picard trusted her, and I'm not suggesting anything like a background check, but if they were so close, then why didn't it ever come up in conversation that her world was obliterated by the Borg.

Relationships are odd.I have a friend/co-worker who has been married for over 25 years.But only recently learned his wife was a survivor of the sinking of the Andrea Doria

There would likely have been at least one trip to the Elaurian homeworld to investigate what had happened in the decades since the Elaurians were rescued, I and Guinan did seem to have some knowledge of how the Borg operate when she said they don't do anything piecemeal.

why would you assume that ewhen theres no evidence to support it?

To beging with, we have no idea where their homeworld was located.It may have been deep in the Delta Q.If so, no ship would have been sent out thast far.

Also, neither ship that carried the survivor were fedaration ships.And of the 2 only 47 survived.As far as we knmow, thats asll the Elaurians to maske it to the fedaration, or the only left in the universe.

I dont find it hard to believe that a group of under 50 people decided it was best to not talk much about the Bvorg.

 


While it is plausible that some things are admirals or higher, the point would be to have people in the field like captains who are more likely to encounter things.


Whatever knowledge they had would have been a problem for an effort to cover up the truth.


I realize the Hansens probably made the model but would have needed some information to base it on, which for Section 31 to have covered it up to the point of their being only the vaguest references to cybernetic zombies from an incident that happened a long time ago.  They also seemed to have a pretty good idea of how to go about observing the Borg.


I know it was never established where the Elaurian homeworld was, but considering dialogue from Q Who, I doubt it was as far away as the Delta Quadrant.  Picard said Guinan's people had been out that far, and she recommended that they turn back immediately as if she was aware of the Borg presence in the area.

stovokor2000-A

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Report this Apr. 09 2012, 9:31 pm

Quote: Broadstorm @ Apr. 09 2012, 8:46 pm

>While it is plausible that some things are admirals or higher, the point would be to have people in the field like captains who are more likely to encounter things.


in your opinion,Maybe they felt that ship casptains couldnt be trusted to keep the info a secret.


Whatever knowledge they had would have been a problem for an effort to cover up the truth.


I dont think so.31 was proven quit skilled at covering things up.


I realize the Hansens probably made the model but would have needed some information to base it on,


which they got on the mission not from 31


They also seemed to have a pretty good idea of how to go about observing the Borg.


they were experts in this kind of work.


I know it was never established where the Elaurian homeworld was, but considering dialogue from Q Who, I doubt it was as far away as the Delta Quadrant. 


what dialog gave you that idea??Nothing in the dialog comes close to suggesting where their homeworld was.


The only thing merntioned was that the Elaurians had been to sector j-25 in the past, nothing more.


Picard said Guinan's people had been out that far, and she recommended that they turn back immediately as if she was aware of the Borg presence in the area.


and???None of that means her homeworld was near by.


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Broadstorm

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Report this Apr. 09 2012, 11:33 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Apr. 09 2012, 9:31 pm

Quote: Broadstorm @ Apr. 09 2012, 8:46 pm

>

>While it is plausible that some things are admirals or higher, the point would be to have people in the field like captains who are more likely to encounter things.

in your opinion,Maybe they felt that ship casptains couldnt be trusted to keep the info a secret.

Whatever knowledge they had would have been a problem for an effort to cover up the truth.

I dont think so.31 was proven quit skilled at covering things up.

I realize the Hansens probably made the model but would have needed some information to base it on,

which they got on the mission not from 31

They also seemed to have a pretty good idea of how to go about observing the Borg.

they were experts in this kind of work.

I know it was never established where the Elaurian homeworld was, but considering dialogue from Q Who, I doubt it was as far away as the Delta Quadrant. 

what dialog gave you that idea??Nothing in the dialog comes close to suggesting where their homeworld was.

The only thing merntioned was that the Elaurians had been to sector j-25 in the past, nothing more.

Picard said Guinan's people had been out that far, and she recommended that they turn back immediately as if she was aware of the Borg presence in the area.

and???None of that means her homeworld was near by.


Okay, so StarFleet captains can't be trusted with anything conidential... That would make an interesting poll.


The dialog I am referring to (and yes, I actually realize the difference between conjecture & established fact) has to do with the "out this far" comment.  Saying "out this far" to someone from 10 times farther away would seem like a rather odd comment.  I know that does not conclusively establish that Elaurian space is within or even near Federation space, but it would at least fit with that comment.  Also, Odo identified an Elaurian, and knew about their species.  Again, I realize that this is not conclusive, but how likely would he have been to know them so well if there were so few left & they were from the Delta Quadrant?


I am just pointing out possibilities here.  I am not saying that these are established facts, but they are worthy of consideration.  I did not completely rule out the Section 31 possibility, just considered that this may simply be just one more of the hundreds of continuity violations. Is that really so implausible that it is unworthy of consideration?


As for how well the Federation would be served by placing such severe limits on opportunities by preventing even captains from knowing to be on the look out for something that posed a threat to the Federation would make them more like The Syndicate from The X Files, which was really not looking out for all of Humanity, only themselves despite their claims to the opposite.

stovokor2000-A

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Report this Apr. 10 2012, 1:31 am

Quote: Broadstorm @ Apr. 09 2012, 11:33 pm

>Okay, so StarFleet captains can't be trusted with anything conidential... That would make an interesting poll.


your twisting my words.I said nothing about "any" info, just this particular subject.


The dialog I am referring to (and yes, I actually realize the difference between conjecture & established fact) has to do with the "out this far" comment.  Saying "out this far" to someone from 10 times farther away would seem like a rather odd comment. 


I dont agree it would be a odd comment..To me it seems saying "out this far" to someone from 10 times farther away is a round a bout way of saying "you must have come trew here on your way to the alpha q".


Also, Odo identified an Elaurian, and knew about their species.  Again, I realize that this is not conclusive, but how likely would he have been to know them so well if there were so few left & they were from the Delta Quadrant?


Odo may have identified him  from his records for all we know.And either way I dfont see how it can have any bearing on how many are left and where they are from.


I am just pointing out possibilities here.  I am not saying that these are established facts, but they are worthy of consideration.  I did not completely rule out the Section 31 possibility, just considered that this may simply be just one more of the hundreds of continuity violations. Is that really so implausible that it is unworthy of consideration?


not at all, all I'm doing is narrowing the feild of opeions here bud.Just for fun.


As for how well the Federation would be served by placing such severe limits on opportunities by preventing even captains from knowing to be on the look out for something that posed a threat to the Federation would make them more like The Syndicate from The X Files, which was really not looking out for all of Humanity, only themselves despite their claims to the opposite.


with that I agree


 


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Broadstorm

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Report this Apr. 10 2012, 2:52 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Apr. 10 2012, 1:31 am

Quote: Broadstorm @ Apr. 09 2012, 11:33 pm

>

>Okay, so StarFleet captains can't be trusted with anything conidential... That would make an interesting poll.

your twisting my words.I said nothing about "any" info, just this particular subject.

The dialog I am referring to (and yes, I actually realize the difference between conjecture & established fact) has to do with the "out this far" comment.  Saying "out this far" to someone from 10 times farther away would seem like a rather odd comment. 

I dont agree it would be a odd comment..To me it seems saying "out this far" to someone from 10 times farther away is a round a bout way of saying "you must have come trew here on your way to the alpha q".

Also, Odo identified an Elaurian, and knew about their species.  Again, I realize that this is not conclusive, but how likely would he have been to know them so well if there were so few left & they were from the Delta Quadrant?

Odo may have identified him  from his records for all we know.And either way I dfont see how it can have any bearing on how many are left and where they are from.

I am just pointing out possibilities here.  I am not saying that these are established facts, but they are worthy of consideration.  I did not completely rule out the Section 31 possibility, just considered that this may simply be just one more of the hundreds of continuity violations. Is that really so implausible that it is unworthy of consideration?

not at all, all I'm doing is narrowing the feild of opeions here bud.Just for fun.

As for how well the Federation would be served by placing such severe limits on opportunities by preventing even captains from knowing to be on the look out for something that posed a threat to the Federation would make them more like The Syndicate from The X Files, which was really not looking out for all of Humanity, only themselves despite their claims to the opposite.

with that I agree

 


It was not my intention to twist your words.  I was simply trying to make a point.  StarFleet captains must be relied upon with confidential information.  I know there are other things that are admirals & up only, but cutting off pretty much the entire mobile fleet from such information would have been counterproductive beyond words.  It would be better to deal with the potential risk of people getting upset over rumors while StarFleet prepared for a threat that could wipe out entire worlds, then to keep that information from those who would be called upon to deal with it to be grossly outmatched when the looming threat becomes reality.


I'll reiterate that I realize my perception of the "out this far" comment is by no means conclusive.  Just as our not knowing the location of the Elaurian homeworld does not necessarily imply that it is much farther away. Of course, Guinan's recommendation to turn back immediately came before any mention of the Borg, but her rather minimal reaction to them seemed to suggest that she was expecting them there.  Guinan visiting Earth hundreds of years prior to TNG also seems to imply that it was not that far away.


I realize also that Odo probably didn't pick the Elaurian out by simply seeing him as they look just like Humans, but his knowledge of their reputation as listeners suggests that their may be more of them somewhere nearby.  Again, I'll reiterate that I am not saying it is conclusive, only worthy of consideration of a possibility.  Guinan said her people were scattered across the galaxy, so unless there were other refugee ships that just happened to reach the same area from as far away as the Delta Quadrant (not impossible, I know) what are the chances of Odo knowing about them when there are only about 50 of them in the region filled with more entire societies?

stovokor2000-A

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Report this Apr. 10 2012, 9:08 am

Quote: Broadstorm @ Apr. 10 2012, 2:52 am

>It was not my intention to twist your words.  I was simply trying to make a point.  StarFleet captains must be relied upon with confidential information.  I know there are other things that are admirals & up only, but cutting off pretty much the entire mobile fleet from such information would have been counterproductive beyond words.  It would be better to deal with the potential risk of people getting upset over rumors while StarFleet prepared for a threat that could wipe out entire worlds, then to keep that information from those who would be called upon to deal with it to be grossly outmatched when the looming threat becomes reality.


I understasnd your point, but I am aslso trying to make a point.


And its that section 31 is not starfleet.section 31 is an autonomous intelligence and defense organization that have opperated in [pretty much] secret for as long at there has been a fedaration.


They wouldnt be able to do that if they started shareing info with every captain in the fleet.I agree, it can be counterproductive at times.


 Guinan visiting Earth hundreds of years prior to TNG also seems to imply that it was not that far away.


again I dont agree.To me it implies nothing.


I realize also that Odo probably didn't pick the Elaurian out by simply seeing him as they look just like Humans, but his knowledge of their reputation as listeners suggests that their may be more of them somewhere nearby.


Sorry but again I dont agree. I dont mean this as an insult, but your drawing conclusions from  a few random situations that to me seem unsupported.


Sure, its possible, but with little to nothing to suport the idea I dont see a continuity error.


Again, I'll reiterate that I am not saying it is conclusive, only worthy of consideration of a possibility.  Guinan said her people were scattered across the galaxy, so unless there were other refugee ships that just happened to reach the same area from as far away as the Delta Quadrant (not impossible, I know) what are the chances of Odo knowing about them when there are only about 50 of them in the region filled with more entire societies?


well, theres the good chance that the 50 or so survivors started having lots of kids.


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Camorite

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Report this Apr. 10 2012, 5:59 pm

Quote: Mitchz95 @ Apr. 09 2012, 7:58 pm

Here's what I think came of Borg info throughout Trek history:

 

2153: "Regeneration" takes place. Starfleet deduces that aggressive, cybernetic zombies might pose a threat in a couple hundred years.

2293: Maiden voyage of the Enterprise-B in "Star Trek: Generations" prologue. Starfleet presumably learns from the El-Aurians that their homeworld was destroyed by aggressive, cybernetic zombies. A connection is made to the aggressive, cybernetic aliens from 2153. Presumably they keep invesigating it.

2350s: The Hanson family hears rumors of aggressive, cybernetic zombies called the Borg. They launch a civilian research project under the Federation Council on Exobiology to seek them out and study them on the USS Raven. They end up stuck in the Delta Quadrant (listed as Missing in Action by the FCE) and later assimilated.

2365: "Q Who" takes place. The Enterprise-D makes a disasterous first contact with aggressive, cybernetic aliens (whether they are zombies is unconfirmed) called the Borg. After escaping, Starfleet determines the Borg to be the same aggressive, cybernetic zombies who wrought havok in 2153 and destroyed El-Auria in the 2290s.

2366: "The Best of Both Worlds" takes place. By now, people like Shelby have studied the Borg based on info taken from all three official encounters.

 

In conclusion, I don't think S31 covered anything up. I just think that unti the 2300s, the Borg weren't known enough to be considered a threat.



Interesting, but at the time to discount that S31 was not in involved in some was is fool hearty given what we know about the organization both from DS9 and Enterprise (that is if you agree that Collins was part of the pre-federation S31).

"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

Camorite

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Report this Apr. 10 2012, 6:06 pm

Quote: Broadstorm @ Apr. 09 2012, 8:29 pm

Quote: Camorite @ Apr. 09 2012, 4:49 am

>Broad storm, you obviously are one of those people that refuse to listen to reason.

Wrong again.  I acknowledge the possibility that your conjecture has merit.  I just see it as that, conjecture.  You have a theory, but it is someone who concludes that theory is the only possible reason that refuses to listen to reason.



I don't think so. This has nothing to do with my theories, but the fact that we disagree that the rescue of el-aurian refugies in generations fits into established canon, which I have proven it does, regardless of how you look at it. I am starting to think that this is less about canon and more about the fact that you don't like the movie.

"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

Broadstorm

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Report this Apr. 10 2012, 6:39 pm

Quote: Camorite @ Apr. 10 2012, 6:06 pm

Quote: Broadstorm @ Apr. 09 2012, 8:29 pm

Quote: Camorite @ Apr. 09 2012, 4:49 am

>

>Broad storm, you obviously are one of those people that refuse to listen to reason.

Wrong again.  I acknowledge the possibility that your conjecture has merit.  I just see it as that, conjecture.  You have a theory, but it is someone who concludes that theory is the only possible reason that refuses to listen to reason.

I don't think so. This has nothing to do with my theories, but the fact that we disagree that the rescue of el-aurian refugies in generations fits into established canon, which I have proven it does, regardless of how you look at it. I am starting to think that this is less about canon and more about the fact that you don't like the movie.


My opinion of the movie doesn't enter into it.  There are episodes that I like that cause contradictions, and episodes I don't like that manage to not mess things up. 


You accuse me of refusing to listen to other people even though I did not completely reject the Section 31 explanation, although it would require that Section 31 be much more like The Syndicate from The X Files to work.  You're the one trying to pass off conjecture as canon.  Even if the producers were to go back & make your explanation canon, it would only be to retcon fix the contradiction.  I hope that someday you can see the irony of that.

Mitchz95

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Report this Apr. 10 2012, 8:38 pm

Quote: Camorite @ Apr. 10 2012, 5:59 pm

>Interesting, but at the time to discount that S31 was not in involved in some was is fool hearty given what we know about the organization both from DS9 and Enterprise (that is if you agree that Collins was part of the pre-federation S31).


What exactly would S31 want to do about the Borg incident? Almost nothing was known about them at the time, and I'd wager that they weren't considered any more alien than, say, the Wisps in "The Crossing".


And what does Collins have to do with anything? All we know about her is that she was in Starfleet Security, which is independant from S31 (as far as we know, anyway). She could have easily been duped along with everyone else. Did you mean to reference Harris from "Affliction/Divergence"?


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

Camorite

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Report this Apr. 10 2012, 8:48 pm

Braodstorm everything that I have stated is based on solid and verifiable canon evidence. On top of that not once have I stated that any of my theories are based on any thing but solid canon evidence. Again this entire debate has been about your claim that generations contradicted established canon, which I have shown is not the case.

As for the S31 thing, what part of super secret organization that will do what it takes to protect the federation do you not understand? I will admit that I never watched the x-files so I can only guess what the syndicate did in that series, but based on what little I did watch it sounds like S31 and the syndicate had similar missions to one another, (again I can only guess at this)

"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

ClayTheScribe

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Report this Apr. 10 2012, 8:48 pm

Me thinks Mitchz95 has all the right answers and reason.


"Impossible is a term humans use far too often." - Seven of Nine

Camorite

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Report this Apr. 10 2012, 9:02 pm

Quote: Mitchz95 @ Apr. 10 2012, 8:38 pm

Quote: Camorite @ Apr. 10 2012, 5:59 pm

>Interesting, but at the time to discount that S31 was not in involved in some was is fool hearty given what we know about the organization both from DS9 and Enterprise (that is if you agree that Collins was part of the pre-federation S31).

What exactly would S31 want to do about the Borg incident? Almost nothing was known about them at the time, and I'd wager that they weren't considered any more alien than, say, the Wisps in "The Crossing".

And what does Collins have to do with anything? All we know about her is that she was in Starfleet Security, which is independant from S31 (as far as we know, anyway). She could have easily been duped along with everyone else. Did you mean to reference Harris from "Affliction/Divergence"?



First, the Borg forced genetic and mechanical alterations to a research team and an alien crew, not to mention that they nearly did the same to Enterprise. They are also responsible for the destruction of the el-aurian home world. If that does not, at the very least, constitute at least a stick-it note by S31, then what is the point for them to be around at all.

Lastly, you may want to look up commander Collins before you make another comment about HIM, just so that you don't embarrass yourself anymore.

"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

Broadstorm

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Report this Apr. 11 2012, 12:41 am

Quote: Camorite @ Apr. 10 2012, 8:48 pm

>Braodstorm everything that I have stated is based on solid and verifiable canon evidence. On top of that not once have I stated that any of my theories are based on any thing but solid canon evidence. Again this entire debate has been about your claim that generations contradicted established canon, which I have shown is not the case. As for the S31 thing, what part of super secret organization that will do what it takes to protect the federation do you not understand? I will admit that I never watched the x-files so I can only guess what the syndicate did in that series, but based on what little I did watch it sounds like S31 and the syndicate had similar missions to one another, (again I can only guess at this)


The Syndicate in The X Files had a deal with the aliens that were going to invade.  They were using it to buy time to develop a defense.  However, that defense was only intended to save them, not the rest of Humanity.  Eventually, they realized that they had been screwed over.  Had they been interested in saving Humanity, they would have brought more scientists in on it.  They sometimes claimed that they were keeping things covered up to prevent global panic, but they were really just out to protect themselves.  There is a certain logic in trying to prevent a panic, but if they are going to keep it from those who will be called upon to defend against the threat, then it is a bad idea.


As you said, your conjecture is BASED ON canon, but it is not canon, and even if it became canon, it would just be a retcon to fix the contradiction which would need to be contradiction in order to need to be fixed.  Regardless of what you think of the degree of nitpicking, Star Trek is full of contradictions, some minor ones that don't really affect the story like messing up rank pins & some not so minor like Angel One mentioning the Romulans gathering near the Federation side of the Neutral Zone & The Neutral Zone establishing that the Romulans haven't been heard from in decades.  The there are the inferred contradictions like Khan recognizing Chekov which is not really a problem as there was nothing that established that Chekov arrived after Space Seed even though Keonig did so it is really just a matter of Chekov was there, but just not shown.

Mitchz95

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Report this Apr. 11 2012, 8:47 am

First, the Borg forced genetic and mechanical alterations to a research team and an alien crew, not to mention that they nearly did the same to Enterprise. They are also responsible for the destruction of the el-aurian home world. If that does not, at the very least, constitute at least a stick-it note by S31, then what is the point for them to be around at all.


I believe many races are responsible for the destruction of other people's planets. I'd be surprised if the Klingons hadn't done that at least once prior to the 2200s.


As for the genetic/mechanical alternations...unusual, but I don't S31 would do much more than keep an eye out for related incidents that could directly affect Starfleet and UE. All the destruction of El-Auria would do is tell them that the aliens are still active somewhere.


Lastly, you may want to look up commander Collins before you make another comment about HIM, just so that you don't embarrass yourself anymore.


You mean this Collins from ENT? http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Collins_%28Commander%29


The only male "Collins" in ST is an Ensign on the Enterprise-D.


And there's no need to be insulting.


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

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