ATTENTION: The Boards will be closed permanently on May 28th, 2014. Posting will be disabled on April 28th, 2014. More Info

Regeneration

Mitchz95

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1830

Report this Apr. 08 2012, 6:55 am

I don't think S31 covered anything up. I just think info on the cybernetic aliens (did the El-Aurians know they were called the Borg?) was classified by Starfleet, and Picard just didn't know about it at J-25.


In "The Best of Both Worlds", Shelby is described as an "expert on the Borg", despite only having knowledge of that one encounter. I think it's safe to say that she knows some of what she knows from reports on the incidents in "Regeneration" and "Generations".


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

Camorite

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 5510

Report this Apr. 08 2012, 8:12 am

OK broad storm you make a few interesting points, but I do feel obligated to comment on a few of your comments.

First, just because the hansens petitioned the exobiology council does not mean that they fully knew about the Borg, only that they were a potential threat that would be just starting to show up in the galaxy.

Second, the assumption that S31 is involved is only logical as they would be the most likely to put the pieces together after the el-arians showed up. This of course is based on their mandate to protect and defend the federation at all cost.

Third, the hansens were rouge xenobiologists, meaning that they were unlikely to talk about their mission to anyone. As for their daughter, well she traveling with them, and be unlikely to tell anyone about what her parents were up to, especially after they left the alpha quadrant.

Lastly, it wouldn't matter if all those reporters were on board the B or not when they rescued the refugies, as they would have been too traumatized to get anything from. The proof of this is from so ran alone, who had to be sedated, in the presence of two of the reporters. After seeing that it is highly doubtful that any of the reporters would have taken stories of cybernetic monsters seriously.

If you have any doubts about this I think I made myself more then clear with my Borg timeline that I posted at the bottom of page 1.

"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

Camorite

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 5510

Report this Apr. 08 2012, 8:20 am

Quote: Mitchz95 @ Apr. 08 2012, 6:55 am

I don't think S31 covered anything up. I just think info on the cybernetic aliens (did the El-Aurians know they were called the Borg?) was classified by Starfleet, and Picard just didn't know about it at J-25.

In "The Best of Both Worlds", Shelby is described as an "expert on the Borg", despite only having knowledge of that one encounter. I think it's safe to say that she knows some of what she knows from reports on the incidents in "Regeneration" and "Generations".



S31's very mandate is the protection of the federation at any cost, so they are most likely the ones that put what the el-aurians told them and archers reports from "regeneration" together. On the other hand if it was someone outside S31 that figured it out then it would not have taken long for S31 to have swooped in and taken over.

As for Shelby, well I can only assume that the original reports from archer's encounter with the Borg, and the debreifings from the refugies would have had to have been declassified by S31 (or whoever else had them) after picards encounter in "q-who".

"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

Camorite

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 5510

Report this Apr. 08 2012, 8:21 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

^^ Nice.



Thanks yanks, it was something that I can up with a while ago, but haven't posted in a while.

"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

Reedworftripparis

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4166

Report this Apr. 08 2012, 4:22 pm

I admit I didn't read everything posted here...but didn't the Borg not mention they were the Borg in the episode as well?


"Reed Alert, that's not bad"...Malcolm Reed

Camorite

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 5510

Report this Apr. 08 2012, 5:58 pm

No they did not. That is why the el-aurians were so important.

"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

Broadstorm

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 828

Report this Apr. 08 2012, 6:32 pm

Quote: Camorite @ Apr. 08 2012, 8:12 am

>OK broad storm you make a few interesting points, but I do feel obligated to comment on a few of your comments. First, just because the hansens petitioned the exobiology council does not mean that they fully knew about the Borg, only that they were a potential threat that would be just starting to show up in the galaxy. Second, the assumption that S31 is involved is only logical as they would be the most likely to put the pieces together after the el-arians showed up. This of course is based on their mandate to protect and defend the federation at all cost. Third, the hansens were rouge xenobiologists, meaning that they were unlikely to talk about their mission to anyone. As for their daughter, well she traveling with them, and be unlikely to tell anyone about what her parents were up to, especially after they left the alpha quadrant. Lastly, it wouldn't matter if all those reporters were on board the B or not when they rescued the refugies, as they would have been too traumatized to get anything from. The proof of this is from so ran alone, who had to be sedated, in the presence of two of the reporters. After seeing that it is highly doubtful that any of the reporters would have taken stories of cybernetic monsters seriously. If you have any doubts about this I think I made myself more then clear with my Borg timeline that I posted at the bottom of page 1.


Okay, now let me TRY... AGAIN to clear something up for you.  You provoked this argument because I mentioned Generations instead of Dark Frontier.  I never said or implied that Dark Frontier didn't show that someone in the UFP knew about the Borg prior to the incident at J25, only that Generations did.  Just beacuse I mentioned one thing doesn't mean I'm clueless about something else.  Your "Umm, did you even see "dark frontier", "And your point is?", "If you have any doubts about this I think I made myself more then clear with" and "Hopefully this helps to clear up some confusion on this matter." are unwarranted.  Yes, Dark Frontier elaborated on certain points to explain how 7 of 9 came to be on Voyager, but it was Generations that first contradicted the idea that the UFP was oblivious to the Borg prior to J25.

Camorite

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 5510

Report this Apr. 08 2012, 8:15 pm

Quote: Broadstorm @ Apr. 08 2012, 6:32 pm

Quote: Camorite @ Apr. 08 2012, 8:12 am

>OK broad storm you make a few interesting points, but I do feel obligated to comment on a few of your comments. First, just because the hansens petitioned the exobiology council does not mean that they fully knew about the Borg, only that they were a potential threat that would be just starting to show up in the galaxy. Second, the assumption that S31 is involved is only logical as they would be the most likely to put the pieces together after the el-arians showed up. This of course is based on their mandate to protect and defend the federation at all cost. Third, the hansens were rouge xenobiologists, meaning that they were unlikely to talk about their mission to anyone. As for their daughter, well she traveling with them, and be unlikely to tell anyone about what her parents were up to, especially after they left the alpha quadrant. Lastly, it wouldn't matter if all those reporters were on board the B or not when they rescued the refugies, as they would have been too traumatized to get anything from. The proof of this is from so ran alone, who had to be sedated, in the presence of two of the reporters. After seeing that it is highly doubtful that any of the reporters would have taken stories of cybernetic monsters seriously. If you have any doubts about this I think I made myself more then clear with my Borg timeline that I posted at the bottom of page 1.

Okay, now let me TRY... AGAIN to clear something up for you.  You provoked this argument because I mentioned Generations instead of Dark Frontier.  I never said or implied that Dark Frontier didn't show that someone in the UFP knew about the Borg prior to the incident at J25, only that Generations did.  Just beacuse I mentioned one thing doesn't mean I'm clueless about something else.  Your "Umm, did you even see "dark frontier", "And your point is?", "If you have any doubts about this I think I made myself more then clear with" and "Hopefully this helps to clear up some confusion on this matter." are unwarranted.  Yes, Dark Frontier elaborated on certain points to explain how 7 of 9 came to be on Voyager, but it was Generations that first contradicted the idea that the UFP was oblivious to the Borg prior to J25.



And yet you are still the one that has not seen that I have explained several times how generations DID NOT go outside of continuity.

"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

Broadstorm

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 828

Report this Apr. 08 2012, 9:36 pm

Quote: Camorite @ Apr. 08 2012, 8:15 pm

Quote: Broadstorm @ Apr. 08 2012, 6:32 pm

Quote: Camorite @ Apr. 08 2012, 8:12 am

>

>OK broad storm you make a few interesting points, but I do feel obligated to comment on a few of your comments. First, just because the hansens petitioned the exobiology council does not mean that they fully knew about the Borg, only that they were a potential threat that would be just starting to show up in the galaxy. Second, the assumption that S31 is involved is only logical as they would be the most likely to put the pieces together after the el-arians showed up. This of course is based on their mandate to protect and defend the federation at all cost. Third, the hansens were rouge xenobiologists, meaning that they were unlikely to talk about their mission to anyone. As for their daughter, well she traveling with them, and be unlikely to tell anyone about what her parents were up to, especially after they left the alpha quadrant. Lastly, it wouldn't matter if all those reporters were on board the B or not when they rescued the refugies, as they would have been too traumatized to get anything from. The proof of this is from so ran alone, who had to be sedated, in the presence of two of the reporters. After seeing that it is highly doubtful that any of the reporters would have taken stories of cybernetic monsters seriously. If you have any doubts about this I think I made myself more then clear with my Borg timeline that I posted at the bottom of page 1.

Okay, now let me TRY... AGAIN to clear something up for you.  You provoked this argument because I mentioned Generations instead of Dark Frontier.  I never said or implied that Dark Frontier didn't show that someone in the UFP knew about the Borg prior to the incident at J25, only that Generations did.  Just beacuse I mentioned one thing doesn't mean I'm clueless about something else.  Your "Umm, did you even see "dark frontier", "And your point is?", "If you have any doubts about this I think I made myself more then clear with" and "Hopefully this helps to clear up some confusion on this matter." are unwarranted.  Yes, Dark Frontier elaborated on certain points to explain how 7 of 9 came to be on Voyager, but it was Generations that first contradicted the idea that the UFP was oblivious to the Borg prior to J25.

And yet you are still the one that has not seen that I have explained several times how generations DID NOT go outside of continuity.


And again you resort to being insulting.  Obviously, we have different interpretations here.  Q Who presented the Borg as a first contact situation.  Generations establishes that the UFP should have had some knowledge of the Borg decades earlier.  It is not as if Generations didn't contradict anything else already established.  In Relics, Scotty say he bet it was Kirk who had come looking for him, but Generations established that Scotty was there when Kirk was presumed killed.  I realize it is possible that Section 31 might have might have been so severely misguided as to believe that severely limiting the number of people working on the problem would somehow be better than having more working on it.  I simply don't accept your speculation as conclusive.


How many clues did they potentially sacrifice by not giving StarFleet some basic knowledge of the Borg?  How would Section 31 contain the information when those other agencies knew about the Borg?  Why didn't Guinan ever tell Picard earlier in their friendship?  Why would Picard have brought Guinan to the Enterprise without even bothering to ask what had happened to her species?  Am I understand from your points that Picard knew enough about the Elaurians to know that they had been to the region of space around J25, but didn't bother to ask his close personal friend what had happened to her homeworld?  Why would Section 31 have waited for an incident that happened 7000 lightyears away AFTER something that happened within Federation territory, to Federation outposts along the neutral zone?

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Apr. 08 2012, 11:35 pm

Quote: Broadstorm @ Apr. 08 2012, 9:36 pm

Quote: Camorite @ Apr. 08 2012, 8:15 pm

>How many clues did they potentially sacrifice by not giving StarFleet some basic knowledge of the Borg?

thats a good question, but it wouldnt be imposible to believe that 31 felt panic might come from greater public knowlidge.

How would Section 31 contain the information when those other agencies knew about the Borg? 

what other agencies???As far as we knmow, no largew group had solid intel.

 

Why didn't Guinan ever tell Picard earlier in their friendship?  Why would Picard have brought Guinan to the Enterprise without even bothering to ask what had happened to her species? Am I understand from your points that Picard knew enough about the Elaurians to know that they had been to the region of space around J25, but didn't bother to ask his close personal friend what had happened to her homeworld?

They had a odd frendiship, but I dont see a need for her to ever tell him, or for Picard to ask.He trusted her.Some even shared between the 2 made them very close.

 

 Why would Section 31 have waited for an incident that happened 7000 lightyears away AFTER something that happened within Federation territory, to Federation outposts along the neutral zone?

At the time, no one knew who was responceable for what happened near the NZ.


Photobucket

Broadstorm

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 828

Report this Apr. 09 2012, 12:26 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Apr. 08 2012, 11:35 pm

Quote: Broadstorm @ Apr. 08 2012, 9:36 pm

Quote: Camorite @ Apr. 08 2012, 8:15 pm

>

>How many clues did they potentially sacrifice by not giving StarFleet some basic knowledge of the Borg?

thats a good question, but it wouldnt be imposible to believe that 31 felt panic might come from greater public knowlidge.

How would Section 31 contain the information when those other agencies knew about the Borg? 

what other agencies???As far as we knmow, no largew group had solid intel.

 

Why didn't Guinan ever tell Picard earlier in their friendship?  Why would Picard have brought Guinan to the Enterprise without even bothering to ask what had happened to her species? Am I understand from your points that Picard knew enough about the Elaurians to know that they had been to the region of space around J25, but didn't bother to ask his close personal friend what had happened to her homeworld?

They had a odd frendiship, but I dont see a need for her to ever tell him, or for Picard to ask.He trusted her.Some even shared between the 2 made them very close.

 

 Why would Section 31 have waited for an incident that happened 7000 lightyears away AFTER something that happened within Federation territory, to Federation outposts along the neutral zone?

At the time, no one knew who was responceable for what happened near the NZ.


I agree that public knowledge would likely have caused a degree of panic (I would think the closest comparison would be a cold war with a threat looming for decades.), but giving officers of a certain rank & up classified knowledge as they have done with other things would have provided opportunities to learn more in situations when certain things are encountered.


It has been a while since I have watched either Raven or Dark Frontier, but the ones mentioned by Annika's parents as having been debating the mission to study the Borg.  There was the Exobiology Council, and I believe one other mentioned.  There was even a scene with Annika playing with a small model of a cube. 


I realize that Picard trusted her, and I'm not suggesting anything like a background check, but if they were so close, then why didn't it ever come up in conversation that her world was obliterated by the Borg.


There would likely have been at least one trip to the Elaurian homeworld to investigate what had happened in the decades since the Elaurians were rescued, and Guinan did seem to have some knowledge of how the Borg operate when she said they don't do anything piecemeal.

Camorite

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 5510

Report this Apr. 09 2012, 4:49 am

Broad storm, you obviously are one of those people that refuse to listen to reason. (Not an insult, just an observation). Not that I expect you to listen to them, but for the benefit of everyone else here are some rebutals to point you have made.

First, the kirk Scotty thing. This is nitpicking at its finest. There are many reasons why Scotty would have said what he did. The most likely is that he was a little disoriented after being king that buffer for 70 years.

Second the guiana subject. There are several point I can make on this one. The first is that we already know that guinan didn't tell picard everything. The proof of this is seen in times arrow when she didn't tell picard or riker information that could have helped them. Granted she was trying to protect the timeline but it is still a valid point.
Second, why would picard intentionally bring up what could be a sore subject for her, or do you think that the destruction of a persons home world or culture would not be a sore subject.

Finally on the S31 subject, obviously as there was proof that the Borg was already in the alpha/beta quadrants why would they go 7000 light years to find them?

Btw, I am sorry if you consider my points somehow insulting, but my intention was not to insult, only inform.

"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Apr. 09 2012, 8:03 am

Quote: Broadstorm @ Apr. 09 2012, 12:26 am

>I agree that public knowledge would likely have caused a degree of panic (I would think the closest comparison would be a cold war with a threat looming for decades.), but giving officers of a certain rank & up classified knowledge as they have done with other things would have provided opportunities to learn more in situations when certain things are encountered.


whos to say that wasnt done?


maybe they felt only Admirals from the security brance were the best to knmow.


It has been a while since I have watched either Raven or Dark Frontier, but the ones mentioned by Annika's parents as having been debating the mission to study the Borg.  There was the Exobiology Council, and I believe one other mentioned. 


Which still doesnt mean either group had great knowlidge.Consider this senerio.


The Hansons have been collecting info and reports about the Borg for years.They approce the Coucil asking to go on the mission.The Council, not ever hearing of them before, believes the Hansons to be on a while goose chase.


But someone at 31 gets the idea that if they alow the Hansons to go, they might get lucking sand find proof, so they convince/manipulate the council to let the Hansons go.


There was even a scene with Annika playing with a small model of a cube. 


A mlodel I'm sure her parents made.


I realize that Picard trusted her, and I'm not suggesting anything like a background check, but if they were so close, then why didn't it ever come up in conversation that her world was obliterated by the Borg.


Relationships are odd.I have a friend/co-worker who has been married for over 25 years.But only recently learned his wife was a survivor of the sinking of the Andrea Doria


There would likely have been at least one trip to the Elaurian homeworld to investigate what had happened in the decades since the Elaurians were rescued, I and Guinan did seem to have some knowledge of how the Borg operate when she said they don't do anything piecemeal.


why would you assume that ewhen theres no evidence to support it?


To beging with, we have no idea where their homeworld was located.It may have been deep in the Delta Q.If so, no ship would have been sent out thast far.


Also, neither ship that carried the survivor were fedaration ships.And of the 2 only 47 survived.As far as we knmow, thats asll the Elaurians to maske it to the fedaration, or the only left in the universe.


I dont find it hard to believe that a group of under 50 people decided it was best to not talk much about the Bvorg.


 


Photobucket

Mitchz95

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1830

Report this Apr. 09 2012, 7:58 pm

Here's what I think came of Borg info throughout Trek history:


 


2153: "Regeneration" takes place. Starfleet deduces that aggressive, cybernetic zombies might pose a threat in a couple hundred years.


2293: Maiden voyage of the Enterprise-B in "Star Trek: Generations" prologue. Starfleet presumably learns from the El-Aurians that their homeworld was destroyed by aggressive, cybernetic zombies. A connection is made to the aggressive, cybernetic aliens from 2153. Presumably they keep invesigating it.


2350s: The Hanson family hears rumors of aggressive, cybernetic zombies called the Borg. They launch a civilian research project under the Federation Council on Exobiology to seek them out and study them on the USS Raven. They end up stuck in the Delta Quadrant (listed as Missing in Action by the FCE) and later assimilated.


2365: "Q Who" takes place. The Enterprise-D makes a disasterous first contact with aggressive, cybernetic aliens (whether they are zombies is unconfirmed) called the Borg. After escaping, Starfleet determines the Borg to be the same aggressive, cybernetic zombies who wrought havok in 2153 and destroyed El-Auria in the 2290s.


2366: "The Best of Both Worlds" takes place. By now, people like Shelby have studied the Borg based on info taken from all three official encounters.


 


In conclusion, I don't think S31 covered anything up. I just think that unti the 2300s, the Borg weren't known enough to be considered a threat.


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

Broadstorm

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 828

Report this Apr. 09 2012, 8:29 pm

Quote: Camorite @ Apr. 09 2012, 4:49 am

>Broad storm, you obviously are one of those people that refuse to listen to reason.


Wrong again.  I acknowledge the possibility that your conjecture has merit.  I just see it as that, conjecture.  You have a theory, but it is someone who concludes that theory is the only possible reason that refuses to listen to reason.

Recently logged in

Users browsing this forum: Vicsage, darmokattanagra, FleetAdmiral_BamBam

Forum Permissions

You cannot post new topics in this forum

You cannot reply to topics in this forum

You cannot delete posts in this forum