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Justices signal possible trouble for Obamacare mandate

God in an Alcove

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POSTS: 43

Report this Feb. 09 2013, 4:05 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 08 2013, 9:01 am

Quote: God in an Alcove @ Feb. 08 2013, 3:22 am

>

>Contraceptives and abortions are not against Christian values. Contraception simply did not exist at the time, and abortion, which is an issue which was more prevalent during the time of Christ, is never mentioned. The value of the life of an unborn child was specifically given a secondary role in the OT, and it was simply never mentioned during the NT; abortive measures were readily available during the time of Christ, yet He never even broached the subject. Those who oppose such measures follow the words of individuals who lived and died centuries after Jesus lived and died.
Do you speak for all Christians?  I know I don't.  Just because you don't think they're against some Christian's values doesn't mean that applies to all Christians.

Many Christians don't have problem with contraceptives, but most view abortion as murder.  Yes, there are someone that don't like contraceptives at all and some Christians say abortion is okay.

It's like some Christians think that drinking wine is a sin and some don't.

 

But.... the major point is that the goverment is saying that it can override religion, which is blatantly anti-Constitutional


But at the same time, you make statements like "Why does [Obama] continue to attack Christians?" I'm not seeing an attack, yet you word it as if you speak for all Christians.


 

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46304

Report this Feb. 09 2013, 9:22 am

Quote: God in an Alcove @ Feb. 09 2013, 4:01 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 08 2013, 8:54 am

>

>

>]Don't confuse medical insurance with a job - they're two different things.

>

I'm not. I was asking a specific question. What does someone, whether they dislike their benefits, perks, or payrate, do, if the only other option is unemployment?

They have choices.  They can keep their job and pay for things not covered by their medical insurance.  They can purchase additional medical insurance.  They can get another job (including starting their own company) and get different insurance.  This is the USA where we have the freedom to choose - not be dictated to.


When I was in the military and making less than poverty level income, my wife and I couldn't even get basic medical care from the government (Remember - the government is supposed to provide "free" medical care to military members and their families,) so I went off-base and got the medical help we needed - at my expense.


 


And for those of you that don't study history - remember that medical insurance became a "standard" benefit because the government was limiting incomes and companies had to find a way to compensate employees for their services.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46304

Report this Feb. 09 2013, 9:31 am

Quote: God in an Alcove @ Feb. 09 2013, 4:05 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 08 2013, 9:01 am

Quote: God in an Alcove @ Feb. 08 2013, 3:22 am

>

>

>Contraceptives and abortions are not against Christian values. Contraception simply did not exist at the time, and abortion, which is an issue which was more prevalent during the time of Christ, is never mentioned. The value of the life of an unborn child was specifically given a secondary role in the OT, and it was simply never mentioned during the NT; abortive measures were readily available during the time of Christ, yet He never even broached the subject. Those who oppose such measures follow the words of individuals who lived and died centuries after Jesus lived and died.
Do you speak for all Christians?  I know I don't.  Just because you don't think they're against some Christian's values doesn't mean that applies to all Christians.

Many Christians don't have problem with contraceptives, but most view abortion as murder.  Yes, there are someone that don't like contraceptives at all and some Christians say abortion is okay.

It's like some Christians think that drinking wine is a sin and some don't.

 

But.... the major point is that the goverment is saying that it can override religion, which is blatantly anti-Constitutional

But at the same time, you make statements like "Why does [Obama] continue to attack Christians?" I'm not seeing an attack, yet you word it as if you speak for all Christians.

 

I didn't say "all" Christians.  Obama says he's a Christian, so I doubt he's attacking himself.  But, if you take a look at the common beliefs of the majority of Christians, like abortion is murder, he's attacking them.


But let's just say that Obama was only attacking Catholics - would that be any less anti-Constitutional?  Of course not!



Remember - Christianity is a group of mulitiple denominations with conflicting views.  I've even heard of some "Christians" who disagree that Jesus is Christ (don't ask me the logic in that one...)  Even Obama believes in "collective salvation" - something nobody can find in the Bible.

Sehlat123

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 496

Report this Feb. 09 2013, 10:12 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 08 2013, 9:01 am

Quote: God in an Alcove @ Feb. 08 2013, 3:22 am

>

>Contraceptives and abortions are not against Christian values. Contraception simply did not exist at the time, and abortion, which is an issue which was more prevalent during the time of Christ, is never mentioned. The value of the life of an unborn child was specifically given a secondary role in the OT, and it was simply never mentioned during the NT; abortive measures were readily available during the time of Christ, yet He never even broached the subject. Those who oppose such measures follow the words of individuals who lived and died centuries after Jesus lived and died.
Do you speak for all Christians?  I know I don't.  Just because you don't think they're against some Christian's values doesn't mean that applies to all Christians.

Many Christians don't have problem with contraceptives, but most view abortion as murder.  Yes, there are someone that don't like contraceptives at all and some Christians say abortion is okay.

It's like some Christians think that drinking wine is a sin and some don't.

 

But.... the major point is that the goverment is saying that it can override religion, which is blatantly anti-Constitutional


Yes, that's true. I don't have a problem with contraceptives.I have a problem with them being funded by taxpayers. Why do we need to pay for something that we aren't using? If you need something, buy it. Don't make everyone else in the country pay for it!


Abortion IS murder. David said life begins in the womb. Even when the child is small and not yet born, it is still alive. It has working organs, has a heartbeat, etc. And you're killing it.


We always say everything is "for the children." We make a huge fuss about the kids killed in shootings, and some want to ban guns because of it. But then we kill thousands of kids every day, and people actually support it! Does that make sense to you?


"Borg. Sounds Swedish."

darmokattanagra

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 386

Report this Feb. 09 2013, 10:17 am

Again, for all the so-called Christians:


"No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." - Matthew 6:24


Please stop pretending your objection to abortion has anything to do with your faith/religion.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46304

Report this Feb. 09 2013, 10:44 am

Quote: Sehlat123 @ Feb. 09 2013, 10:12 am

>Yes, that's true. I don't have a problem with contraceptives.I have a problem with them being funded by taxpayers. Why do we need to pay for something that we aren't using? If you need something, buy it. Don't make everyone else in the country pay for it!
Exactly - that's the essential argument here.  Some people keep saying "I need" and then demanding that someone else pay for it.  Anyone notice how that list of needs keeps getting longer and longer and how much more our taxes (at least those of us paying taxes) are going to meet those "needs?"

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46304

Report this Feb. 09 2013, 10:47 am

Quote: Sehlat123 @ Feb. 09 2013, 10:12 am

>Abortion IS murder. David said life begins in the womb. Even when the child is small and not yet born, it is still alive. It has working organs, has a heartbeat, etc. And you're killing it.

>We always say everything is "for the children." We make a huge fuss about the kids killed in shootings, and some want to ban guns because of it. But then we kill thousands of kids every day, and people actually support it! Does that make sense to you?
That reminds me of a image someone recently sent me:


http://treeofmamre.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/assault-weapons.jpg?w=640

darmokattanagra

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 386

Report this Feb. 09 2013, 12:02 pm

Every man who has masturbated has killed a child.


Every woman who has menstruated without conceiving has killed a child.

Sehlat123

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 496

Report this Feb. 09 2013, 12:04 pm

Quote: darmokattanagra @ Feb. 09 2013, 10:17 am

>

>Again, for all the so-called Christians:

>"No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." - Matthew 6:24

>Please stop pretending your objection to abortion has anything to do with your faith/religion.

>


Oh, stop it. As we said before, that verse doesn't condemn us to poverty. It means put God before lust of wealth.


How about some more verses?


Luke 1:15: "For he shall be great before the Lord and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."



This states he was alive in the womb. If he had not been alive in the womb, than why would it say that?



Psalms 22:10: "I was cast upon thee from the womb. From my mother's womb thou art my God,"



How could he be his God if he wasn't alive?


Everything is political for you, huh? Why do people object to abortion? Because the republicans told us to? No! It's because it is murder. The Bible says so. And somehow some christians deny that? Here's another verse for you:


"Therefore, anyone who sets aside the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven"


 


"Borg. Sounds Swedish."

darmokattanagra

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 386

Report this Feb. 09 2013, 12:25 pm

Everything is political for you, huh? Why do people object to abortion? Because the republicans told us to? No! It's because it is murder. The Bible says so.


No, because you don't want to pay for it. It's not about your faith/religion, it's about your money.


Again, you put your love of money before your love of God.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46304

Report this Feb. 09 2013, 1:15 pm

Quote: Sehlat123 @ Feb. 09 2013, 12:04 pm

>Oh, stop it. As we said before, that verse doesn't condemn us to poverty. It means put God before lust of wealth.
Well... we know that anti-Christian group ... they purposefully take scripture out of context in any way they can in order to destoy us and make us their slaves.  (That's one of Satan's favorite tricks.)


The Bible tells us that we're at war and our enemies use lies as their primary tool.

darmokattanagra

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 386

Report this Feb. 09 2013, 2:09 pm

Well... we know that anti-Christian group ... they purposefully take scripture out of context in any way they can in order to destoy us and make us their slaves.


19 Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.


20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.


21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.


22 The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light.


23 But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!


24 No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.


25 Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes?


26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?


27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?


28 And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin.


29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.


30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith?


31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’


32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.


33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.


34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.


 


 


Putting it in context doesn't help your argument.

Lone Palm

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POSTS: 207

Report this Feb. 10 2013, 2:48 pm

As I've already said, Obamacare does nothing but force people who don't have insurance to buy from private companies or pay a fine. It's not about government control, it's about corporate control. - darmokattanagra


Controlling the corporations?   Yea..... to a point.  But it's about controlling the people.  This is just another step towards the end goal.  Remember - they have stated many times the end goal is to get rid of all private medical insurance companies -BamBam


The government is not controlling business, it's the other way around...What do millionaires like Obama and Pelosi have to gain from implementing single-payer or other "socialist" policies? -Darmokattanagra


@darmoattanagra. It's about competing self-interests. The corporations use politicians to grant them monopolies, backed by government force. The politicians use corporations to gain political power for themselves and grow government under their personal draconian rule. If the politicians did not offer the service of political favoritism, the corporations wouldn't be able to buy favoritism and influence legislative policy in the manners currently done. But the politicians and the politically favored corporations conspire to eliminate competition until only two players remain - the politicians and the corporations. As the only two players left, they turn on one another. The politicians are in a much better position, backed by the force of government, to eliminate any remaining privatization under the guise of nationalization. Once private property is destroyed, the politicians can redistribute the wealth for their benefit.



Lone Palm

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POSTS: 207

Report this Feb. 10 2013, 2:57 pm

Again, I'll quote Ron Paul: "Contrary to the claims of the proponents of the health care bill, large insurance and pharmaceutical companies were enthusiastic supporters of many provisions of this legislation because they knew in the end their bottom lines would be enriched by Obamacare." -darmokattanagra


Ron Paul is also describing the game of corporatism whereby corporations compete for political favoritism. If negatively viewed by the public, a corporation will privately fund a bill, but publically refute it for marketing purposes. Corporations know that a majority fo uneducated people, who don't critically read legislative bills or pay attention to their authors, can be polarized into a given position and therefore be persuaded one way or another. So, let's say I hate Wal-Mart and oppose it at face value. Wal-Mart has a lobbyist write a legislative bill that grants Wal-Mart subsidies. Wal-Mart, knowing that I hate the company, decides to publically oppose the bill, which I haven't read, to provoke me into favoring the bill, which ultimately grants Wal-Mart what it desires. This tactic frequently happens. Bankers and polticians used this tactic to create the Federal Reserve in 1913.  

Lone Palm

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 207

Report this Feb. 10 2013, 3:36 pm

Well firstly, your initial statement implied that "government controlled medical care" was "determining who lived and died"; in actuality, the patient (or in the case of children, the parents) makes the decision, the medical practitioners are powerless to do anything without that consent. -Vorta_the_point


The medical practitioners have the power to influence parental decision by virtue of their medical authority and assumed expertise. However, doctros have competing self-interests. Doctors have their own expenses. They might have acquired an expensive medical machine, which needs to be paid for, and as a result, offer their expensive machine when a cheaper alternative could be more effective.


Forgive me, but I'm not sure I see your logic; you appear to be arguing that putting them through the suffering of withdrawal of life support is inhumane and immoral, yet the whole rationale behind putting them on the pathway is because the suffering of prolonging their lives would be greater than this alternative.... As mentioned in the article, the decision to withdraw nutrition is not taken lightly; it's only implemented when the projected suffering the patient will incur from it isless than what they would suffer if their life were prolonged somewhat. - Vorta_the_point


Individuals have different pain thresholds, and therefore suffering is highly subjective. I, for example, find Abrams' movie to be so intolerably insufferable that it sometimes outweighs my disgust of the Federal Reserve, fractional reserve banking, and fiat currency. While I believe in voluntary associations, euthanasia creates a moral hazard for the doctor. I believe a moral doctor, who is dedicated to his oath, would exclude himself from the practice of euthanasia, recognizing that it does not mandate his inclusion. I would avoid any doctor who believed otherwise. Resorting to voluntary associations and private property laws, doctors would be able to perform euthanasia with voluntary consent in the free market, but would be subject to competitive forces, such as personal convictions. 



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