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This has been bugging me

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Mar. 19 2012, 9:08 am

Quote: Invader_Wishfire @ Mar. 19 2012, 3:29 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Mar. 18 2012, 12:23 pm

Quote: Invader_Wishfire @ Mar. 18 2012, 6:23 am

>

> Wrong again. I'm the one who has provided evidence, in the form of dialog. You, one the other hand, have provided only claims. Provide evidence, or concede.

You claimed that she [the android mother] would "SELF TERMANATE" once it became known she was an android.

I claimed she would only "SHUT DOWN" in that kind of case.Your dialog proved me right, so man up and admit it.

And I did provide evidence that shutting down is temporay and not the same as self termenation...........or maybe you just dont remember the episodes in question.

Here are just a few episodes in which we see shutting down is not the same as termanation.

DataLore, The Schizoid Man, The Measure of a Man, Contagion, Brothers, Star Trek Nemisis.

So you're in agreement with me. Took long enough.


Trying to save face again I see........How am I agreement with you?


You claimed that if the mother android became aware she was an android she would self termanate.


Self termanate = death by the defintion of the word.


I claimed she wouldv only shut down.


Shutting down has never equaled death for these typoes of androids, its always been temporay.


You claimed the dialog backed you up, but ultimatelay it failed you and proved my point.


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Invader_Wishfire

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POSTS: 27518

Report this Mar. 20 2012, 1:10 am

And now you're changing your argument. You initially said that she would shut down temporarily. You still haven't provided evidence to support this claim, and nothing in the dialog I provided suggests anything that supports your claim.


If such a shut-down would only be temporary, why would Soong ask Data not to tell Juliana the truth? He obviously didn't want her to learn the truth, as he didn't want her to shut down. Why be worried about it if it's only temporary? Indeed, why add such a subroutine in the first place?

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Mar. 21 2012, 9:57 am

Quote: Invader_Wishfire @ Mar. 20 2012, 1:10 am

>And now you're changing your argument. You initially said that she would shut down temporarily. You still haven't provided evidence to support this claim, and nothing in the dialog I provided suggests anything that supports your claim.

>
I changed no argument.I said that , for Soong type androids, the term "shutting down" has always been depicted as a temporay result.While the term "termanate" for the same androids has been depicted as dieing and by its very defintion implise a finel result.


And I provided plenty of evidence to prove that.But heres some dialog from the episode in question that supports my point.


 DATA
And you never told her the truth?

SOONG
Why? There was no reason for her
to know. I wanted her to be
happy. I wanted us to be happy. 


 As to wether "shutting down" and "termanating" are 2 different things.................................................................



DATA
If she recovers and learns that
she is an android --

SOONG
She doesn't have to know. I
designed her to shut down in the
event the truth was discovered.
When you re-insert the chip,
she'll wake up and remember
nothing. All you have to do is
make up some excuse about what
happened to her.

DATA
Then... you do not believe she
should know the truth.

SOONG
The truth is that in every way
that matters, she is Juliana
Soong.
I've programmed her to terminate
after a long life. Let her live
out the rest of her days, and die
believing she was human. Don't
rob her of that, son. Please.


If such a shut-down would only be temporary, why would Soong ask Data not to tell Juliana the truth?He obviously didn't want her to learn the truth, as he didn't want her to shut down. Why be worried about it if it's only temporary? Indeed, why add such a subroutine in the first place?


Soong [hologram] told Data why, so she could go on living her life berlieving she was a human.Have you forgotton that data considered telling her the truth so that he would no longer be alone in the universe???If she was going to "termanate" when learning the truth, why would he even consider telling her?


Here are some quotes from the dialog.


DATA
It seems that I must make a
decision: to tell Doctor Tainer
that she is an android -- or
withhold that knowledge from her.
And I do not know what to do.

BEVERLY
Why was Doctor Soong so adamant
that she not be told?

DATA
He seemed certain that if she
knew, it would preclude the
possibility of her being happy.


PICARD
And -- what do you think?

DATA
I am not certain.
I can understand why my father
felt as he did -- but his wishes
are not necessarily paramount. I
am concerned with what would be
best for -- my mother.

BEVERLY
Wouldn't she be better off knowing
the truth? Dealing with the
reality of her existence?

TROI
I don't think so. She's believed
she's human all her life. The
truth might be devastating to her.

PICARD
Data, there might come a time in
the future when she would find out
anyway -- another accident, for
example. Perhaps it would be
easier for her to learn the truth
from you.

BEVERLY
I can tell you that if I were in
her place... I'd rather have my
son tell me than some stranger...

DATA
I find that I am having difficulty
separating what would be best for
her... from what would be best for
me.

TROI
What do you mean?

DATA
If she knew she were an android,
she and I would have something to
share. I would no longer be alone
in the universe.

TROI
I know how much that would mean to
you... but at the same time,
telling her would rob her of the
one thing you've wanted all your
life -- to be human


 


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Invader_Wishfire

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POSTS: 27518

Report this Mar. 22 2012, 6:14 pm

You said, "even if she found out she was an android she wouldnt self terminate,...she would only shut down temporaly." Those are your own words.


And you still haven't provided evidence of such. In fact, the only thing you've provided evidence of is disparity between what Soong said and what Data said that Soong said.


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stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Mar. 23 2012, 9:32 am

Quote: Invader_Wishfire @ Mar. 22 2012, 6:14 pm

>

>You said, "even if she found out she was an android she wouldnt self terminate,...she would only shut down temporaly." Those are your own words.

>And you still haven't provided evidence of such. In fact, the only thing you've provided evidence of is disparity between what Soong said and what Data said that Soong said.

>


Dude, its ok to admit you were in error.


I have INDEED provided evidence that "shutting down" for a Soong type creation has always been depicted as "temporaly".


And even Soong dialog in this episode indicates and shutting down and termanation are 2 different things.Here it is again.


SOONG
She doesn't have to know. I
designed her to shut down in the
event the truth was discovered.


SOONG
I've programmed her to terminate
after a long life.


No less Soong pleaded with Data not to tell her, not because she would die but because he wanted her to die believing she was human, to die happy, not because she would either shut down again, or termenate.


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Invader_Wishfire

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Report this Mar. 23 2012, 2:28 pm

You have not shown that the terms "terminate" and "shut down" are used in different contexts. You've only stated what you think they mean.


You have also not " provided evidence that 'shutting down' for a Soong type creation has always been depicted as 'temporaly'," as you haven't even stryed away from this one episode.


What's the matter? Don't have any?


The only thing you've showed is, as I've already said, disparity between Data's words and Soong's words.


 

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Mar. 23 2012, 2:54 pm

Quote:

You have not shown that the terms "terminate" and "shut down" are used in different contexts.


I certinly did, and your denial isint going to help your argumenty.


Soong said he designed her to shut down if the truth was learned.........but that she could be reactivated and that it wasnt nessesary to tell her the truth.........but didnt say it was dangerouse for her to know it.


This means its a temporay result


He also said he programed her to termanate after a long life,,........which is a natural way to die if she was human.


Which means its the mimic of death for the old.A final result of living.


This proves that shutting down and termanate are used in different context.Not to mention that we have seen several times that shutting down is not a final result.


You've only stated what you think they mean.


You have also not " provided evidence that 'shutting down' for a Soong type creation has always been depicted as 'temporaly'," as you haven't even stryed away from this one episode.


What's the matter? Don't have any?


\Dude, stop denying facts.I have cited a number of episodes by name already, in which we see Data shutting down, or being shut down by an other person.


Whats a matter???????/Is it that you dont recall the episodes or that you cant muster a counter argument?


Again, here are some of the episodes............


DataLore, The Schizoid Man, The Measure of a Man, Contagion, Brothers, Star Trek Nemisis.


In each of these episodes/1 film ,we see that shutting down is temporay.


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Invader_Wishfire

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POSTS: 27518

Report this Mar. 24 2012, 4:24 am

Talk about denial. Soong never said that she could be reactivated in any other circumstance. That is an absolute fabrication.

And, no, you've provided any evidence of "shutting down" as being only temporary. The term most commonly used is "deactivate," which has been used with both permanent and temporary connations.

You're welcome to keep trying, but I a,m starting to doubt if that'll be worth it.

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stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Mar. 24 2012, 9:42 am

Quote: Invader_Wishfire @ Mar. 24 2012, 4:24 am

>Talk about denial. Soong never said that she could be reactivated in any other circumstance. That is an absolute fabrication. And, no, you've provided any evidence of "shutting down" as being only temporary. The term most commonly used is "deactivate," which has been used with both permanent and temporary connations. You're welcome to keep trying, but I a,m starting to doubt if that'll be worth it.


I'm not the one in denial.


Soong stated that she could be ractivated and that it wasnt nesseary to tell her the truth, that they had a choise in what they told her.Which is proof thast Soong viewed shutting down as a temporay state.


No less Data considered telling her the truth, he wouldnt if there was a chance she would "die" from knowing.


Soong also indicated thst termanation was a final state.


And while "deactivate," may well be used more often, its not the only term used.The episode list I provided did indeed contain proof of my claims, but it seems your unwilling to watch them or even research them.


Heres some dialog from TNG's "Contagion" from after Datas systems were infected with the Iconian virus/program.It clearly portrays a shut down as temporay.


Worf picks Data up waits for the bridge of the Enterprise D to appear and steps trew


RIKER
Worf! What happened? Where's
the captain?

WORF
We must take Data to Engineering.

Geordi's examins Data.

GEORDI
I don't know how to help him.
But comparing recorded norms for
Data to the current readings, it's
clear that all his functions are
going crazy. If we had an expert
-- Maddox, or somebody.........

GEORDI
....................He's gone.

Geordi reaches out and closes Data's eyes believeing hes dead.
Then abruptly the android's
eyes reopen and he sits up.

GEORDI
Data!

RIKER
What the hell?

DATA
Ah, I have access.

Suddenly things begin to fall into place for Geordi.

GEORDI
The self-correcting mechanism --

It's constantly kicking in to make
minute adjustments in the
positronic brain.

RIKER
He cleared the Iconian program
from his own system. How?

Geordi, this is critical. How?

GEORDI
Let me think for a second. There
was an incompatible program
running through Data's system, so
the mechanism started searching
for a way to keep him alive. The
solution must have been a shutdown
and a total wipe of all affected
memory.



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Invader_Wishfire

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POSTS: 27518

Report this Mar. 24 2012, 6:07 pm

You most certainly are in denial.

Soong never said that she could be active and know the truth at the same time. He said that she would shut down if she knew the truth. In this case, it was never said or shown that she shut down because she found out that she was an android. While hinted at, the episode left it open to interpretation. Secondly, learning that she's an android and shutting down doesn't mean that someone can't go in and alter her memory so that she goes back to not knowing, and then reactive her. Either way, my initial argument holds true.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Mar. 24 2012, 8:58 pm

Quote: Invader_Wishfire @ Mar. 24 2012, 6:07 pm

>You most certainly are in denial.


Again, I'm not the one in denial.Based on the tyone and the context of the dialog its obvious Soong saw the 2 terms differently.Shutting down is not perminant, termanating is.


Soong never said that she could be active and know the truth at the same time.


He told Data she didnt have to know the turth.But he said nothing about her dieing if she did



DATA                                                                                                                                                        If she recovers and learns that
she is an android --

SOONG
She doesn't have to know.


He said that she would shut down if she knew the truth.


No he did not exactly.He said he she would shut down if the truth was dicovered, not if she, herself, learned it.


SOONG
I designed her to shut down in the
event the truth was discovered.


In this case, it was never said or shown that she shut down because she found out that she was an android.


Sorry but no, we did indeed see that she swhut down when her arm was damaged in the fall.The program in question, shut her down when her arm fell off and it was obvious that she was an android.


While hinted at, the episode left it open to interpretation.


Even if its opin to interpertation, it makes your original claim in error since your claim an absolute state of fact and not just your opinion.


Secondly, learning that she's an android and shutting down doesn't mean that someone can't go in and alter her memory so that she goes back to not knowing, and then reactive her..


This is true, but Soong pleaded with Data not to tell her because he was sure she wouldnt be happy knowing, not because she couldnt remain active while knowing.


Either way, your initial argument fails..


I remind you of your original claim.Nothing you provided comes close to evern suggesting that shutting down is viewed the equal of dieing.


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PetShopBoysMontyPythonSta
rTrekLover1997

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POSTS: 109

Report this Apr. 12 2012, 7:56 am

This bugs me too....well i guess those androids were not as complex in TOS and therefore they all (or most of them) short circuited.  Data i guess is the only one worth keeping around *shrug* otherwise i got nothin'


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