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Klingon Empire

OneDamnMinuteAdmiral

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Report this Mar. 04 2012, 2:43 am

What are your thoughts on the Klingons being able to maintain a galactic power yet only be interested in the way of the warrior? Could a society that focuses primarily on conquest and war really be able to keep up the way they are portrayed in the shows? Yes I know that lots of technology comes from war but they are not exactly shown to be the foremost scientific minds in the galaxy so one would think they would have fallen behind the curve quite a long time ago. Will they have to eventually join the Federation just to compete? I guess what I'm wondering is how to they maintain their Empire when when they cling to such old ways of thinking?


Are you sure it isn't time for a colorful metaphor?

Broadstorm

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Report this Mar. 04 2012, 5:01 am

Even if you take into consideration the few times they mention some other side of Klingon society, it would collapse in on itself.  There are those who are not warriors, but the warrior mentality causes them to dismiss anyone who is not a warrior.  That, at the very least, implies that the scientists & engineers are often regarded as not being "true Klingons" because they don't go out on the front lines.  The warriors are not very particular about who they fight, as long as they get to fight.  With all the internal struggles, wars with other powers, etc, they are bound to run out of ships eventually.  Given their propensity for alcohol & loud boasting, conspiracies like the one with the high council covering up Duras' dishonor might not last very long.  "What does this say of an empire that holds honor so dear?"  There are plenty of power hungry dictator wannabes that are willing to make deals with sworn enemies to gain an upperhand internally.  They are easily swayed against their allies like in the Dominion War.  Even with it known that the Founders could infiltrate governments & cause trouble, the Klingons turned on their allies. 

TNG=culture

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Report this Mar. 04 2012, 5:38 am

Agreed, with such a primative way of thinking, its hard to belive they used enough of the brain to reach light speed. Just take a look at humans. 

jerry_guru

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Report this Mar. 04 2012, 8:10 am

I have not read material from the creators or writers of the various TV series to verify, but the 'Klingon' ethos seems to be based on Medieval Samurai/Daimyo clan wars in Japan during the Sengoku, the great civil wars. 'It is a good day to die' can easily come from Mori Motonari or one of his sons, or Musashi's Book of Five Rings. If you wish to see what Klingon Empire society might look like, read a Japanese history book about the 'Sengoku', Kamakura, and Muromachi eras. A Samurai warrior dying on behalf of his lord was considered the greatest honor a Samurai warrior could have. 


I am not defending this as such, but merely pointing out where the writers got their idea from. 


Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations

TNG=culture

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Report this Mar. 04 2012, 8:19 am

Quote: jerry_guru @ Mar. 04 2012, 8:10 am

>

>I have not read material from the creators or writers of the various TV series to verify, but the 'Klingon' ethos seems to be based on Medieval Samurai/Daimyo clan wars in Japan during the Sengoku, the great civil wars. 'It is a good day to die' can easily come from Mori Motonari or one of his sons, or Musashi's Book of Five Rings. If you wish to see what Klingon Empire society might look like, read a Japanese history book about the 'Sengoku', Kamakura, and Muromachi eras. A Samurai warrior dying on behalf of his lord was considered the greatest honor a Samurai warrior could have. 

>I am not defending this as such, but merely pointing out where the writers got their idea from. 

>


 


Now that makes perfect sense. Thanks!


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Reliant Redshirt

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Report this Mar. 04 2012, 8:22 am

in ancient Grece the Spartans were fixed on warfare, they were a major power of the time, they colapsed because they had little way of moving up social classes.


The Klingon Empire might be functional if they keep lower castes made of undesireables for the warriors doing the job noone wants to (that is not wielding a Batleh), or if they acknowledge some warrior divisions for non Batleh related services (such as modern day Naval Ordinance Lab in USA, where scientists with a short haircut make the things that will puncture the next wave of enemies. 

Kesfan74656

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Report this Mar. 04 2012, 8:31 am

While not directly appropos, I gues, but interesting to me, is the novel ''The Final Reflection'', by the late John M. Ford, who gives the reader a glimpse into his take on Klingon society a bit, as he creates a story about Captain Krenn, and shows his participation, as a youth, in the ''Year Games'', in which  he and his peers play out on a large combat venue roles that exist on what is a version of chess for their race. Humans, and other captured aliens, are introduced, at some points, given a line I recall reading, into the Games, as well. While not canon, it's a great book IMO, and, at least at the point it was written in the early/mid eighties, a rare peek behind the duranium curtain of the Empire.


''If I were captain, i'd open every crack in the universe, and peek inside, just like Captain Janeway does''-Kes, ''The Cloud''

jerry_guru

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Report this Mar. 04 2012, 9:47 am

Quote: Reliant Redshirt @ Mar. 04 2012, 8:22 am

>

>...The Klingon Empire might be functional if they keep lower castes made of undesireables for the warriors doing the job no...one wants to (that is not wielding a Batleh)...

>


In the pre-Tokugawa era, there was strict division between the Samurai and peasant caste, even more severe than medieval Europe. As I understand it, a Samurai had the legal right to kill anyone from the peasant caste for any reason (such as looking at him the wrong way), not that this was a wise thing to do (peasant = rice grower = clan wealth).


Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations

tribblenator999

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Report this Mar. 04 2012, 1:29 pm

a society like that could exist for only a limited time. Like the USSR for example.

Roddenberry's Disciple

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Report this Mar. 04 2012, 6:35 pm


The TOS Klingons seemed to posses much greater intelligence than their descendents in the other shows.  I can't imagine the Post-TOS Klingons being able to work a Mind Sifter/Scanner or laying down laws to a conquered people.  The TOS Klingons debated the Humans atleast.  The "New" (lol) Klingons seem to just show off their weapons and armor like bullies on the playground (not that the TOS Klingons weren't bullies).


However, on the other side, the TOS Klingons were MUCH less honorable, and they used decimation against innocent civilians (or atleast thought they did, in "Errand of Mercy").  Also, Kang was kind of an idiot to beam up to the Enterprise in "Day of the Dove", and they seemed to be really susceptible to the "dubious effects of alcohol" (Trouble with Tribbles). 


So, basically, I can see the TOS Klingons as a "true" Empire, since they conquered other races and seemed to be a bit more intelligent and less myopically into their own culture.  The "New" Klingons seem more like relics not adapting to the present (in our case, the future lol), and who can't even keep their own homeworld stable.  


Kor, Koloth, and Kang>Worf.



"Star Trek" was, is, and will always be "Star Trek" (as in the original series). "The Next Generation" is a spectacular show that I more or less consider equal to the original, and DS9 is pretty good (albeit far overrated by many). The first 8 movies are fine by me too!

OneDamnMinuteAdmiral

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Report this Mar. 04 2012, 7:04 pm

Quote: jerry_guru @ Mar. 04 2012, 8:10 am

>

>I have not read material from the creators or writers of the various TV series to verify, but the 'Klingon' ethos seems to be based on Medieval Samurai/Daimyo clan wars in Japan during the Sengoku, the great civil wars. 'It is a good day to die' can easily come from Mori Motonari or one of his sons, or Musashi's Book of Five Rings. If you wish to see what Klingon Empire society might look like, read a Japanese history book about the 'Sengoku', Kamakura, and Muromachi eras. A Samurai warrior dying on behalf of his lord was considered the greatest honor a Samurai warrior could have. 

>I am not defending this as such, but merely pointing out where the writers got their idea from. 

>


Using that as a template helps to support the point that they couldn't last since that kind of culture isn't around on our own planet anymore and we are not even in space yet.


Are you sure it isn't time for a colorful metaphor?

Broadstorm

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Report this Mar. 04 2012, 7:46 pm

Quote: Roddenberry's Disciple @ Mar. 04 2012, 6:35 pm

>

>The TOS Klingons seemed to posses much greater intelligence than their descendents in the other shows.  I can't imagine the Post-TOS Klingons being able to work a Mind Sifter/Scanner or laying down laws to a conquered people.  The TOS Klingons debated the Humans atleast.  The "New" (lol) Klingons seem to just show off their weapons and armor like bullies on the playground (not that the TOS Klingons weren't bullies).

>However, on the other side, the TOS Klingons were MUCH less honorable, and they used decimation against innocent civilians (or atleast thought they did, in "Errand of Mercy").  Also, Kang was kind of an idiot to beam up to the Enterprise in "Day of the Dove", and they seemed to be really susceptible to the "dubious effects of alcohol" (Trouble with Tribbles). 

>So, basically, I can see the TOS Klingons as a "true" Empire, since they conquered other races and seemed to be a bit more intelligent and less myopically into their own culture.  The "New" Klingons seem more like relics not adapting to the present (in our case, the future lol), and who can't even keep their own homeworld stable.  

>Kor, Koloth, and Kang>Worf.

>


I think the difference in intelligence comes down to exposure.  In TOS, even with the more simplified good vs evil of the period, rather than shades of gray in more modern scripts, the Klingons were just not expanded on very much with 5(?) episodes all subject to Shatner's harassing of the writers to make every damn episode heavily Kirk-centric .  After the decision was made to add a Klingon in TNG, and then to develop the race, there was a problem with "caricature" writing in the development of some races.


As for the differences in how honorable each period's Klingons are, I have my doubts.  TNG Klingons TALK about honor, but consider the high council's conspiracy to keep the truth about who the traitor was quiet while not only letting the son of a traitor (not just a victim of lineage, but an accessory after the fact) live, but continue to be a part of the high council, Martok's line about conquering other races rather than embracing them, and Worf's comments about many Klingons wanting to attack the Federation, not because of honor, but because they figured they could pull it off.  They say there is no honor in attacking weaker opponents, but that is how they conquer, then they boast about how honorably they fought while attacking those weaker opponents they say there is no honor in attacking.

EnsignBeavis

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Report this Mar. 04 2012, 8:23 pm

It was revealed in later series that Klingon society was more balanced in the past, which explains why they are technologically on par with less barbaric civilizations. The warrior caste has only held power for a few centuries, and even in the 24th century you hear reference to current day Klingon poets and scientists (Klingon Opera anyone?). 

Roddenberry's Disciple

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Report this Mar. 04 2012, 8:30 pm

Yes, but in their appearances, the TOS Klingons aren't monster characters.  They're US, which is what makes them so much more intimidating as an enemy.  When "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" was made, they simply went for a more physical intimidation rather than the deeper and more real intimidation that the Original Klingons presented.  I love much of what has gone on with Trek after TOS, but a lot of the "little things" have been lost about what made Trek great in the first place. 


Furthermore, The Klingons are NOT technically an Empire in their post-TOS appearances.  The Klingons in the films and the spin off shows do not consist of multiple ethnicities or rule over planets with indigenous populations.  The Klingons in TOS, however, DO consist of Humans varying ethnicities seemingly ruled by a single power ("The Klingon Homeworld"-Errand of Mercy) and race, as seen by Kahless appearing just like Commanders Kor and Kang (as dark skinned, North Asians).  The Foot soldiers are of varying races (albeit all Human-esque, nonetheless), showing a true "by the book" definition of an "Empire" in practice.  As the Kor, Kang, and Kahless race seems to be the "commanding" Klingon ethnicity (Koloth perhaps working his way up to a command position?).  


Klingons...what a race!


"Star Trek" was, is, and will always be "Star Trek" (as in the original series). "The Next Generation" is a spectacular show that I more or less consider equal to the original, and DS9 is pretty good (albeit far overrated by many). The first 8 movies are fine by me too!

Broadstorm

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Report this Mar. 04 2012, 8:32 pm

Quote: EnsignBeavis @ Mar. 04 2012, 8:23 pm

>

>It was revealed in later series that Klingon society was more balanced in the past, which explains why they are technologically on par with less barbaric civilizations. The warrior caste has only held power for a few centuries, and even in the 24th century you hear reference to current day Klingon poets and scientists (Klingon Opera anyone?). 

>


Yeah, the Klingon lawyer that represented Archer went into it some, but with TNG occurring 200 years later, and the "recent" turn to greater savagery taking hold to the degree that it did for that long would make it implausible for such a society to remain viable for so long.

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