ATTENTION: The Boards will be closed permanently on May 28th, 2014. Posting will be disabled on April 28th, 2014. More Info

Would you dedicate your political activity to creating a real future like STAR TREK?

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46296

Report this Feb. 24 2012, 9:51 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>With or without god things like the Adam and Eve story have been disproven(and defies logic). The great flood (a world wide flood)has been disproven and also defies logic. Now a guy living in the belly of a whale for three days has not actually been disproven but it is truly silly. Your statement only reinforces my point. You said just because we don't understand something or can't explain it doesnt mean it it never happened. Does that include things like the big bang or how single celled life forms first appeared on earth?(not that I compleaty accept the big bang as fact but accept it as the most likely explanation due to our currant understanding of the universe.) To simply say god did it is not only an intellectual dead end but an intellectual weakness.
Don't believe those that wish God to not exist to "prove" He doesn't.  Just because something isn't logical (based on our current knowledge) doesn't mean it's not true.  (Reminds me of people who said that we couldn't fly.)  None of those events have ever been disproved.  Just keep questioning (honestly.)


I can't believe that everything you see (and a whole lot more) came from nothing - completely illogical.


caltrek2

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2654

Report this Feb. 25 2012, 7:24 am

While good points have been made by both BamBam and resistance is futile in the last page or so, I would say that I tend to agree most with resistance (no pun intended but the double meaning is applicable).  


I don't object to the idea that many of our founding fathers did look toward a Christian understanding of the Bible for guidance in forming our democracy. Claims have been made that things have happened like banning children from bringing Bibles to school with them so that they cannot study them during break time. To the extent such claims are true, I would say that is not a good thing. Nor is it a bad thing to allow moments of silence in school during which some can pray if they wish.


What I do support is keeping government from endorsing any one religion over another. Even the founding fathers recognized that many who had come to the United States had escaped persecution in Europe, or at least in Great Britan, and so they did not want to favor one Christian sect over another. I think that is a wise policy.


I think any body who has truly read all of the Bible does not think that every rule that is written there should be put into governmentally enforced law. Look at some of the rather extreme injunctions in Leviticus. Those Biblical injunctions may have made sense to a particular sect at a particular time in the distant past, but we would be very truly foolish to make them a part of today's law.


Nor should we imagine that everything in the Bible supports the notion of the superiority of capitalism as an economic system. As pointed out in my citation above, the Bible indicates at certain points that a "righteous" man does not lend money at interest - and yet such "lending" is a cornerstone of modern day capitalist enterprises.


Much of the Bibile can be read to endorse a sort of communisim in which everybody voluntarily shares with the poor so that bread is given to the hungry and the poor are properly clothed. That is the basis of an economic system that seems to be posited as one that should exist regardless of what governmental system is in place. In that sense, the Bible neither endorses nor opposes socialism. We are merely told to render onto Caeser what is due Caeser - whatever that may mean.  


Whatever conclusions one can draw form the Bible, I do object to anyone who thinks that they are following the one true religion and that therefore their relgion should be the only and exclusive basis upon which government is founded. At some point, a little common sense should come into play. As indicated by others, our generation should think for itself in formulating and implementing government laws and policies. It should not follow one slavish and probably selective interpretation of the Bible, and just the Bible, as the sole basis for determining such laws and policies. 

Mitchz95

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1830

Report this Feb. 25 2012, 8:51 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>You see. There you go not thinking for yourself again. A world wide flood has in fact been disproven, just look at the facts objectively and try to reason it out. You know,as you suggest to our democrat friends,do the reaserch. The same goes for the Adam and Eve myth,try being objective. As for saying that something came from nothing, well,nobody claimed this. The big bang theory basically states that everything in existance(space,time,energy)was crunched down to a very tiny point and then inflation happened. You might ask "what was before this tiny point consisting of everything?" In case you asked this i will inform you that it like standing on the north pole and asking "in what direction is north?" Everything from nothing as if like magic is actually what creationists claim. This god fellow just snapped his fingers and everything just was-compleaty illogical. I will ask you a question that I asked as a child. Where did god come from? You may answer with something like he always was and always will be or some alpha and omega comment but is it not at least possible that the universe(for all intents and purposes)was always here and will always be here. I will never try to prove that god does not exist as the existance of god is unknowable however much of the bible can be and has been disproven. Think for yourself. It is critical to your individual liberty.

>


 


Perhaps I misunderstand you, but it sounds like you're defending Big Bang theory (everything came from a tiny singularity that's always existed) against Christianity (everything came from a God that's always existed). Aren't they both kind of the same thing, the big explosion aside?


And Christians do think for themselves. We examine possibilities just like you do. We're just willing to take leaps of faith sometimes.


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

TNG=culture

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 329

Report this Feb. 25 2012, 10:52 am

Matthew 6:6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly

And there is a time and place for everything. Not another 158 page debate of reilgion. Lets just say we are spiritual beings made from the sameelements as our star. Then i think we could even argue if the moon wasnt in the right place at the right time. We are still evolving. Yes the bible is our constitution, sorry influenced, and religion has come a long way in 2000 years.

Now what are some of the fundamental characteristics of Star trek TNG?


How simular are they to our constitution?

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46296

Report this Feb. 25 2012, 10:54 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>
Don't believe those those that wish God to not exist to "prove" He doesn't.  None of those events have ever been disproved.  Just keep questioning (honestly.)

I can't believe that everything you see (and a whole lot more) came from nothing - completely illogical.

You see. There you go not thinking for yourself again. A world wide flood has in fact been disproven, just look at the facts objectively and try to reason it out. You know,as you suggest to our democrat friends,do the reaserch. The same goes for the Adam and Eve myth,try being objective. As for saying that something came from nothing, well,nobody claimed this. The big bang theory basically states that everything in existance(space,time,energy)was crunched down to a very tiny point and then inflation happened. You might ask "what was before this tiny point consisting of everything?" In case you asked this i will inform you that it like standing on the north pole and asking "in what direction is north?" Everything from nothing as if like magic is actually what creationists claim. This god fellow just snapped his fingers and everything just was-compleaty illogical. I will ask you a question that I asked as a child. Where did god come from? You may answer with something like he always was and always will be or some alpha and omega comment but is it not at least possible that the universe(for all intents and purposes)was always here and will always be here. I will never try to prove that god does not exist as the existance of god is unknowable however much of the bible can be and has been disproven. Think for yourself. It is critical to your individual liberty.
You have more faith than I do in believing that everything came from nothing.


Think of it this way - can a simple life form, say an amoeba create something as simple as a pocketwatch?  Of course not!  But you're telling me that nothing can create something.. and not only something, but something extremely complicated as many, many life forms....


Remember watching TNG: "Wo Watches The Watchers"?  Remember when Picard was talking about Nuria who thought Picard was a god and how he responded?


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46296

Report this Feb. 25 2012, 10:56 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>Perhaps I misunderstand you, but it sounds like you're defending Big Bang theory (everything came from a tiny singularity that's always existed) against Christianity (everything came from a God that's always existed). Aren't they both kind of the same thing, the big explosion aside?

>And Christians do think for themselves. We examine possibilities just like you do. We're just willing to take leaps of faith sometimes.

>
We are now moving into the realm of philosophy(a good thing.) I guess they can be considered the same thing on the surface however it seems that time itself did not exist before the big bang so essentially the big bang markes the beginning of time. It hard to imagine that something can exist before time( I do admit that our understanding of time is limited and that people may say god may exists outside of time)so if there is a god than he to was created at the beginning of time( I.e the big bang.) I guess the fundamental differance is that the big bang can be accepted through observable science and does not require a leap of faith. As I said before I don't know if god exists or not. Maybe one day science will be able to answer this question.
And who says that God didn't create that big bang?


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46296

Report this Feb. 25 2012, 10:57 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>For now we learn nothing by saying god did it.
Except that we identify the Cause, just not necessarily the how.


Kind of like a magician - we know they did something, but we don't know how.


TNG=culture

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 329

Report this Feb. 25 2012, 11:02 am

Matthias Russell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7705

Report this Feb. 25 2012, 11:06 am

Perhaps someone on this site should form the "Trek Party" movement and create a charter. Everyone can go to the polls in uniform. Maybe 2 years from now, politicians will be speaking about getting the trek vote!

Hmm, maybe we could get a serious space program again.

TNG=culture

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 329

Report this Feb. 25 2012, 11:13 am

Matthias Russell typed:


Hmm, maybe we could get a serious space program again.

yes, the number one need, beyond the basic human needs.

dfgrbac

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 102

Report this Feb. 25 2012, 11:29 am

At last, the topic is drifting off religion.  Now it's science and philosophy.  I have a rather big response to the religion comments which I will post after doing this quick reply.


Anyway, I don't think the big bang (or whatever we want to call it) is the beginning of creation.  It may be so for "our universe".  But science seems to be on the verge of proving that ours is not the only one.  Time is the fourth dimension, but there seems to be many more beyond that.


Time and space are funny things, especially when you consider deeper ideas like quantum physics and string theory.  The recent NOVA program on PBS about "The Fabric of Space" was mind boggling.  Science continues to show that there is far more to reality than we can even think about.


The feeling I am getting is that there indeed probably are more universes than ours.  That goes against the concept of universe which is supposed to mean everything.  And these "other universes" probably coexist with ours.  In fact, (thinking about the big bang of ours) big bangs may be happening all the time (excuse the pun since time has little meaning on the big scheme of things).  Our universe came into being in a singularity and apparently will diffuse to  nothing eventually, and others may be doing the same things at different intervals.  Whatever reality really is, it goes on forever!  That's my thought.


Don Grbac

dfgrbac

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 102

Report this Feb. 25 2012, 11:38 am


Wow! It seems I stirred up a hornets nest here. But the discussion has drifted off subject quite a bit with religion. I'd really like to see some legitimate discussion of my original post, but I will make some comments in response to this divergence.


BamBam, the government is not removing God from our schools and history. The Founders intended their new nation to be secular providing religious freedom for everyone with no mandates. The references we see to God from government have all been added in the 200 years since the establishment of the Constitution. For example, the reference to God on our money was not there originally. So nobody is removing God from government places or things since the founding, Christian pressure groups have been adding references to God. You can see why the non-religious may get irritated.


When it comes to students carrying Bibles and praying in public schools, I agree that they should be able to do that. Public schools should make provisions for the religious. Each school should have a prayer room where students can go to pray if they want to with a segment of time out of the school day for that for each child. Other children could simply go to study hall. But prayers should be done in those periods and not during collective classes or other school activities. Respect should be taught all around. If a graduating honor student wants to make a speech including God, everyone should respect that and let him/her proceed.


Nativity scenes and crosses are inappropriate on government property – unless any and all other views are allowed to be presented alongside. This is the only fair way to do that.


I think it is fine for public schools to educate students about religion, but not for them to train students in a religion. It would be great if schools had culture and religion classes as part of their curriculum. One day Christian students could be asked to explain their beliefs, another day Muslims, another Jews, another Hindus, and so on. This would go a long way to developing a general culture of respect for all peoples – a view we see in STAR TREK.





Now, can we have a discussion on the original topic? What can we, will we do to create an actual future like STAR TREK? Or do you think that's not possible?





Don Grbac

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46296

Report this Feb. 25 2012, 11:39 am

^^ I've always thought that the idea of a "multiverse" was fascinating.


 


As for time being the fourth dimension, I said that in my calculus class and the professor didn't agree. (He had told us that if we build a 4-D model, he'd build a 5-D model.)


Matthias Russell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7705

Report this Feb. 25 2012, 12:33 pm

Quote: TNG=culture @ Feb. 25 2012, 11:13 am

Matthias Russell typed:

Hmm, maybe we could get a serious space program again.

yes, the number one need, beyond the basic human needs.



You jest but it is true. One stray asteroid or ecological disaster is all it takes to destroy humanity, daVinci, Shakespeare, democracy. All of it. If you want human society to survive then you should want a space program so man can learn to colonize other worlds.

The space program isn't just a way to flaunt technological and financial prowess. It is about preserving our species and culture. Unfortunately, too many politicians and voters are too short sighted or stupid to realize this.

Matthias Russell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7705

Report this Feb. 25 2012, 12:55 pm

The UFP is a socialist republic. I don't believe capitalism exists inside the UFP. They have currency and income but it is not a profit motivated society.

Forum Permissions

You cannot post new topics in this forum

You cannot reply to topics in this forum

You cannot delete posts in this forum