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poverty a matter of choice

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46304

Report this Jan. 27 2012, 8:54 am

Quote: Ghostmojo @ Jan. 27 2012, 1:17 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Jan. 26 2012, 4:23 pm

Quote: Ghostmojo @ Jan. 26 2012, 3:06 pm

>

>

>It is also fallacious to assume all rich people get rich through honest graft and innovation. Remember Enron?
I've never assumed that all rich people came by it honestly.  Take a look at Gaddafi... $200 Billion

If someone does something illegal, that's for the courts to handle.

That's jumping from one extreme to the other and serves this discussion little purpose. I'm not talking about tyrants or monsters. I'm saying not all of your supposed venture capitalists, entrepreneurs or supposed icons of wealth-creation are actually as honest and hard-working as you think.

This not the kind of black and white situation you seem to like to portray. It is shades of grey. Look at many of the banks and financial institutions. Some of them have collapsed spectacularly. Many are now being funded from the public purse. And yet those to blame for the bloody mess bail out with huge golden parachutes.

I don't see it as jumping from one "extreme" to another.  People who get money by stealing it or coersion are both bad - and very non-capitalistic.  They didn't create a product/service that others wanted and got value for value.  I don't care if it's the common burglar or Bernie Madoff or a politician who trades votes for money or Gaddafi.


If you want to compare "extremes" - compare one that is impeccably honest with one that is not.


Funding using subsidies is blatanly wrong and unConstitutional.


Don't confuse "golden parachute" clauses with corruption and bailouts.  The executives had contracts that need to be honored, but I would hope that the companies (and shareholders) get smarter about how they write those contracts.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46304

Report this Jan. 27 2012, 9:00 am

Quote: Ghostmojo @ Jan. 27 2012, 1:26 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Jan. 26 2012, 4:21 pm

>

>

>soo as you say "free system that allows for entrepreneurship" and combine that with "prevents the massive disparities...", you have a contradiction - either we have free enterprise where people are allowed to reap profits or you stifle innovation in order to keep everyone's income the same.

>

There is no contradiction there. You misquote me. I said we need to creatively organise a system that allows for both. We don't have it now and that is part of the problem.

What you fail to realise is this is not a virtuous merry-go-round where everything comes right again after a few years. The boom-and-bust economic model leads us nowhere. We have a growing population worldwide and diminishing resources. We have massive demands being placed upon energy creation and consumption. All of this is going to create incredible pressures and lead to conflict.

You firstly have to step outside your golden cage of American parochialism and look at the bigger picture. We occupy a global economy and a global environment. If you hadn't realised that China has being paying your bills for quite while now, then perhaps you ought to make some enquiries into the state of the US exchequer.

Actually, I did NOT misquote you - I copied and pasted your exact text.


But you confirmed what I said - "organise a system that allows for both" - which is impossible because they're mutually exlusive.  You cannot be free and still be a slave.


And yes, I fully understand that there are limited resources, but we've only scratched the surface - the more we learn, them more we discover and the more we create.  Just take a look at what we have been able to create over the last century.


And I'm very well aware of America's debt issue - I've been complaining about it for over 20 years - trying to get citizens and politicians to understand the danger.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46304

Report this Jan. 27 2012, 9:02 am

Quote: Beershark @ Jan. 27 2012, 2:32 am

>The probem is that in the corprate mind set, right and wrong as been replaced by legal and illegal.
In some cases, it is sadly true.  And in some cases - it's actually worse - they know it's illegal, but try to get by with it anyway.


I recently had an argument with my brother-in-law about being honest.  He said that lying to someone else is just "business."  (And he wonders why I refuse to go into business with him.)


Gibmaticus

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POSTS: 23

Report this Jan. 27 2012, 2:22 pm

I see.  Being born into impoverished circumstances is a failure of "personal responsibilty"  No, wait, it's a "bad choice", that's it.  Suffering under the tyranny of low expectations routinely expressed by tin-eared, low-information "conservatives" clearly is another failure of "personal responsibility".  How dare these ghetto people suggest their feelings of hopelessness, the lack of employment opportunities, and the un-ending RACISM is somehow not their fault!


I'll tell you what, I am sick and fucking tired of rightwing BS like this self-conscious, egotistical poster is shovelling.  "Og Mandino"?? REALLY???


Typical narcissitic GOP BOLLOCKS!


 

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46304

Report this Jan. 27 2012, 2:28 pm

Quote: Gibmaticus @ Jan. 27 2012, 2:22 pm

>

>I see.  Being born into impoverished circumstances is a failure of "personal responsibilty"  No, wait, it's a "bad choice", that's it.  Suffering under the tyranny of low expectations routinely expressed by tin-eared, low-information "conservatives" clearly is another failure of "personal responsibility".  How dare these ghetto people suggest their feelings of hopelessness, the lack of employment opportunities, and the un-ending RACISM is somehow not their fault!

>I'll tell you what, I am sick and fucking tired of rightwing BS like this self-conscious, egotistical poster is shovelling.  "Og Mandino"?? REALLY???

>Typical narcissitic GOP BOLLOCKS!
I was born into poverty, but it was my choice if I wanted to get out or stay in.  My parents have chosen to stay there and I chose to get out.  (And I've been discriminated against many times because I was not a minority, so don't talk about "racism" where people are discriminated against.)


And I would suggest that you not use profanity here - someone will take offense and report you.


Trekwolf164

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POSTS: 32043

Report this Jan. 27 2012, 2:29 pm

The real danger is we do not produce any products in the USA we are importing everything building China up while starving ourselves.


Wake up


If we ever have to go to war we will have to buy the guns, tanks and bullets from the people shooting at us.


 


 


www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcdZla4gKk0

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46304

Report this Jan. 27 2012, 2:31 pm

Quote: Trekwolf164 @ Jan. 27 2012, 2:29 pm

>

>The real danger is we do not produce any products in the USA we are importing everything building China up while starving ourselves.

>Wake up

>If we ever have to go to war we will have to buy the guns, tanks and bullets from the people shooting at us.

>
Yep - I highly suggest the "Thriftville Vs. Squanderville" video for a simple explanation.


Trekwolf164

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POSTS: 32043

Report this Jan. 27 2012, 2:34 pm

Don't need to see a video I just look at the condos where the factorys used to be.


 


 


www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcdZla4gKk0

Vicsage

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POSTS: 465

Report this Jan. 27 2012, 2:42 pm

Assume that poverty (and just an assumption for this debate) is at least party caused by poor choices that a person make.   I hope that that doesn't mean the government shouldn't try to help people out financially.   If that were true the same would have to go for health research.  Lung cancer is for the vast majority of victims caused by smoking and exposure to asbestos.  Choices people make, therefore, no government funding for research for lung cancer.  Bladder cancer, most cases caused by smoking and exposure to some dyes.  Choices people  make, so no government funding for bladder cancer research.  AIDS.  Don't even need to explain this one.  People who have children with genetic defects that could have been tested for ahead of time.  No research money for these kids either.  Obviously the bail-outs for the banking industry nearly 4 years ago.  Bad choices, no help.  Build near the coast.  Hurricane hits. Bad choice, no help.  Earthquake zone, no help.  Most house fires caused by poor choices (cigarette smoking, overturned heaters, bad wiring),do away with the fire department.  People make choices all the time, and sometimes only hindsight will tell if it was a bad choice.  The help has to be smart, but no help? 


No response must mean you all agree.

Trekwolf164

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POSTS: 32043

Report this Jan. 27 2012, 2:47 pm

Yes poverty is the result of poor choices allowing government to enact free trade agrements and to allow corporations to make products overseas exploting  cheep labor while selling overpriced products to the US.


Sneekers made outside the USA should cost 100 dollars more than one produced in the USA


Do this with all products and once again there would be very little unemployment in the USA.


 


'


www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcdZla4gKk0

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46304

Report this Jan. 27 2012, 2:54 pm

Quote: Vicsage @ Jan. 27 2012, 2:42 pm

>

>Assume that poverty (and just an assumption for this debate) is at least party caused by poor choices that a person make.   I hope that that doesn't mean the government shouldn't try to help people out financially.   If that were true the same would have to go for health research.  Lung cancer is for the vast majority of victims caused by smoking and exposure to asbestos.  Choices people make, therefore, no government funding for research for lung cancer.  Bladder cancer, most cases caused by smoking and exposure to some dyes.  Choices people  make, so no government funding for bladder cancer research.  AIDS.  Don't even need to explain this one.  People who have children with genetic defects that could have been tested for ahead of time.  No research money for these kids either.  Obviously the bail-outs for the banking industry nearly 4 years ago.  Bad choices, no help.  Build near the coast.  Hurricane hits. Bad choice, no help.  Earthquake zone, no help.  Most house fires caused by poor choices (cigarette smoking, overturned heaters, bad wiring),do away with the fire department.  People make choices all the time, and sometimes only hindsight will tell if it was a bad choice.  The help has to be smart, but no help? 

>
Don't confuse government control and entitlements with "help."


“I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.” -- James Madison


I believe very strongly in helping people, but not enslaving them.


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