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Who is the most human?

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Created by: greendaynumba1fan

greendaynumba1fan

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Report this Dec. 31 2011, 8:16 pm

I definitely say it's Odo, I think it's a given. What do you think?


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OtakuJo

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Report this Jan. 01 2012, 1:37 am

I'm not as sure. "Human" is an extremely broad term.


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Ghostmojo

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Report this Jan. 01 2012, 2:45 am

Odo is a bucket of sludge!


Data is a bucket of bolts!


Spock has a human mother ...


Really, is this question even serious?


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greendaynumba1fan

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Report this Jan. 06 2012, 3:22 pm

Quote: Ghostmojo @ Jan. 01 2012, 2:45 am

>

>Odo is a bucket of sludge!

>Data is a bucket of bolts!

>Spock has a human mother ...

>Really, is this question even serious?

>Happy New Year to all sentient life forms

>

Odo has human emotions, he falls in love, he has friendships with the crew and would give his life to save them. Granted, Spock has emotions too, he just likes to think he doesn't. He doesn't really fall in love, you can't really count that woman in the cave.  He's friends with Jim and Bones, but he's not too close to Sulu, Checkov, or Uhura. 


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Ghostmojo

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Report this Jan. 07 2012, 4:05 am

Quote: OtakuJo @ Jan. 01 2012, 1:37 am

>

>I'm not as sure. "Human" is an extremely broad term.

>


No it's not. Last time I looked it meant somebody from planet Earth.


In Spock's case he is part human and according to Kirk that 'part' made his soul the most human of all.


Data is factory fabricated and Odo is completely alien and in his natural form not even humanoid or bipedal.


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Vger23

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Report this Jan. 07 2012, 7:40 am

Quote: Ghostmojo @ Jan. 07 2012, 4:05 am

Quote: OtakuJo @ Jan. 01 2012, 1:37 am

>

>

>I'm not as sure. "Human" is an extremely broad term.

>

No it's not. Last time I looked it meant somebody from planet Earth.

In Spock's case he is part human and according to Kirk that 'part' made his soul the most human of all.

Data is factory fabricated and Odo is completely alien and in his natural form not even humanoid or bipedal.


 


Haha! Right, it really IS just that simple.


 


Besides, being "human" is so much more than expression of emotion.


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MoppyCGDaniels

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Report this Jan. 07 2012, 1:23 pm

Although Spock with the human mother Amanda has this side against the Vulcan logical one. Makes this Spock realy to the most human? Besides the fact that now she had died the point of the logic & the emotions was seen to what this took him. Alike when Spock was a child the other Vulcan kids used to tease him about the human Mother what finaly made his decision to join Starfleet. I'd say Kirk is the most human with all the emotions, feelings and heart.


 


To get back to the topic I'd reference 1st Odo & 2nd Data, because Data is almost a superhuman (likewise Khan Sing). Odo allways wanted to be humanoid (solid) despite the fact that his people didn't agreed with this.

OtakuJo

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Report this Jan. 07 2012, 3:31 pm

Quote: Ghostmojo @ Jan. 07 2012, 4:05 am

Quote: OtakuJo @ Jan. 01 2012, 1:37 am

>

>

>I'm not as sure. "Human" is an extremely broad term.

>

No it's not. Last time I looked it meant somebody from planet Earth.


By the literal genetic definition, yes -- in that Spock has human ancestors -- but that's not the only meaning that people are going for when they talk about someone's "humanity". As a signifier, Human encompasses far more than just the genetic.


In Life Support, Bashir tells Kira, "I won't destroy whatever trace of humanity Bareil has left." (Paraphrasing) Clearly, being Bajoran, Bareil has no humanity in the literal sense -- but that was not what Bashir meant!


In that sense, I would be hesitant to pick one of these characters over the others because of the extreme diversity inherent in the human species today. To say for example, "Odo doesn't have humanity because he is a loner, Spock doesn't have humanity because he favours logic over emotions, Data has no humanity because he does not experience 'love' in the same sense that others do..." That would fail to acknowledge that many people today (myself included) have similar character traits but are still inherently "Human".


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OtakuJo

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Report this Jan. 07 2012, 3:44 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>You're pretty tough on Spock here, but how many buddies does Odo have seriously?

>


Humanity is not measured merely by popularity.


Odo was happiest in his own company, but that does not exclude him by any stretch of the imagination.


However


He has quite a close friendship with Kira before they become lovers. And also with Lwaxana Troi. Not to mention that fantastic love / hate relationship he has with Quark.


The crew of the Defiant also risked their careers to retrieve him from Romulan / Cardassian captivity in the episode The Die is Cast.


And Bashir and O'Brien also risk their own lives in Extreme Measures in order to cure him of the changeling morphogenic virus.


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MoppyCGDaniels

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Report this Jan. 07 2012, 4:26 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Jan. 07 2012, 3:31 pm

Quote: Ghostmojo @ Jan. 07 2012, 4:05 am

Quote: OtakuJo @ Jan. 01 2012, 1:37 am

>

>

>

>I'm not as sure. "Human" is an extremely broad term.

>

No it's not. Last time I looked it meant somebody from planet Earth.

By the literal genetic definition, yes -- in that Spock has human ancestors -- but that's not the only meaning that people are going for when they talk about someone's "humanity". As a signifier, Human encompasses far more than just the genetic.

In Life Support, Bashir tells Kira, "I won't destroy whatever trace of humanity Bareil has left." (Paraphrasing) Clearly, being Bajoran, Bareil has no humanity in the literal sense -- but that was not what Bashir meant!

In that sense, I would be hesitant to pick one of these characters over the others because of the extreme diversity inherent in the human species today. To say for example, "Odo doesn't have humanity because he is a loner, Spock doesn't have humanity because he favours logic over emotions, Data has no humanity because he does not experience 'love' in the same sense that others do..." That would fail to acknowledge that many people today (myself included) have similar character traits but are still inherently "Human".


To be honest it doesn't matter how much in form as you mentionend precent human a sentient being is. Especialy when you reference Bareil in terms of humanity, he had when Bashir had to displace it with a machine. Spock had not only human "ancestors" Amanda Piers was his human mother. This concludes to how human in meanings of humanity a (humanoid) alien is.

OtakuJo

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Report this Jan. 07 2012, 4:33 pm

Amanda Piers, being Spock's mother, was one of his human ancestors!


I am not exactly sure what you are trying to argue here, Moppy. But I do not say that the literal, biological definition of "human" is irrelevant. Merely that it is often not the definition that Star Trek is going for when it mentions the term or any of its derivatives.


Oftentimes I agree with the literal interpretation, but when used in this context, it is no less a question of semiotics.


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MoppyCGDaniels

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Report this Jan. 07 2012, 4:53 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Jan. 07 2012, 4:33 pm

>

>Amanda Piers, being Spock's mother, was one of his human ancestors!

>I am not exactly sure what you are trying to argue here, Moppy. But I do not say that the literal, biological definition of "human" is irrelevant. Merely that it is often not the definition that Star Trek is going for when it mentions the term or any of its derivatives.

>Oftentimes I agree with the literal interpretation, but when used in this context, it is no less a question of semiotics.

>


Your point being? A biological definition of human is relevant, otherwise he or she wouldn't neccessarily be a human. You could say in the context of humanity it would only fit a human, but in terms of Star Trek (i.e. Bareil) humanoid aliens like Bajorans does posses humanity.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Jan. 07 2012, 5:27 pm

KIRK: That was as Captain of a ship. Human beings...
SPOCK: But Captain, we both know that I am not human.
KIRK: Do you want to know something? ...Everybody's human.
SPOCK: I find that remark ...insulting.


OtakuJo

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Report this Jan. 07 2012, 10:55 pm

Quote: MoppyCGDaniels @ Jan. 07 2012, 4:53 pm

>

>Your point being? A biological definition of human is relevant, otherwise he or she wouldn't neccessarily be a human. You could say in the context of humanity it would only fit a human, but in terms of Star Trek (i.e. Bareil) humanoid aliens like Bajorans does posses humanity.

>


Your point being? You first. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.


A biological definition of human is relevant... I have not said it was irrelevant -- merely that it is not the only definition and, I'm guessing, not the exclusive definition presented here.


but in terms of Star Trek (i.e. Bareil) humanoid aliens like Bajorans does posses humanity Q.E.D. That was exactly what I was going for when I presented said example. Bareil does not have literal humanity but he does have human qualities. (Which I think is the definition of "most human" which the OP is asking for yes?)


If you say what I think you are saying, then we really aren't disagreeing -- but I did disagree with Ghostmojo on the exclusiveness of homo sapiens to all definitions of "humanity", as presented by Star Trek.


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Ghostmojo

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Report this Jan. 08 2012, 3:54 am

Spock became more human as time went on. He fought his emotions throughout TOS and tried to purge them entirely (start of TMP) before finally going through emotional awakening-life-death-life again (end of TMP/TWOK/TSFS/TVH) and realising they and the personal relationships they engender, are a very important part of him (TFF). As he said to Valeris (TUC) in examining such things as wisdom, he had come to realise himself that logic is the starting point, not the finishing point.


The problem with the use of the word 'human' is perhaps one best directed at the writers of the show/s. It often occurs in places were it shouldn't and of course the Klingon Azetbur reminds us of how distasteful and provocative the term is to her and them. 'Sentient' would be better. Even 'humanoid' basically means 'like us'. Other aliens could say well actually all bipedals are: Klingonoid, Vulcanoid, Andorianoid, Romulanoid or even Betazoidoid! It is merely a matter of perspective. We tend to use the word 'human' (as Kirk did) to denote the better angels of our destiny, i.e. the best part of us - our humanity. We all understand that, and in that respect it is true that being human is not just a physiological state off several billion Terran creatures - it means much more. But should the term really be applied to aliens - even if it is meant in a complimentary manner?


BTW Spock's mum was originally Amanda Grayson wasn't she?


And of course when it comes to the full gamut of human emotions - love, hate, loyalty, friendship, kinship, jealousy, envy etc. these are present in other aliens - not because they are demonstrating human characteristics (although some are) but because their races have evolved that way too.


After all - life - in whatever way it manifests itself, is often a struggle between the needs of the one and the needs of the many. All characters in Trek be they alien or human define themselves partly by who they are and partly by whom they associate with.


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