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Seeing DS9 for the first time

Dita Alvarez

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POSTS: 8

Report this Aug. 01 2012, 10:40 pm

Hey, Jim


You brought up a few great points in your reviews. I have to agree with you that DS9 had the secound best ending. Right after "All Good Things" The last scene in "What you Leave Behind" was great. I got a little misty eyed watching Jake stare off into space.


The fire pit part was the only thing that I didn't like about the episode. It was really uber cheesy. I never really liked the Winn/Dukat/Pah Wraith story anyway.It seemed to come out of nowhere and was just weird.


A bit off topic, but you mention that DS9 sits on the same mountaintop as TOS,TNG and ENT. Enterprise is the only show I haven't seen. I am a bit scared too,as I can't stand Voyager. Is Enterprise actually an okay show?

Data Logan

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POSTS: 331

Report this Aug. 01 2012, 10:47 pm

Jim, like you, I think "All Good Things" was a better finale that "What You Leave Behind". While "All Good Things" had its problems, it was much more of a fun romp throughout. "What You Leave Behind" dragged at times, too much information passed between Odo and the Founder in the link "off screen", and the "climatic" battle between good and evil in the Fire Caves was, in fact, anti-climatic.

I don't think the Cardassia fleet swapped sides too soon. The Dominion had just destroyed an entire Cardassian city full of civilians -- then broadcast it to everyone. What would you expect at that point?

Data Logan

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POSTS: 331

Report this Aug. 01 2012, 10:52 pm

Here's my list of top 10 DS9 "episodes", although I cheat and lump multi-parters together:

Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast
Duet
In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light
The Siege of AR-558
In the Pale Moonlight
Dominion Occupation (first 6 episodes of season 6, my favorite part being "Sacrifice of Angels")
The Visitor
Trials and Tribble-ations
Far Beyond the Stars
The Final Chapter (last 9 episodes, my favorite one being "Taking into the Wind")

And my 10 least favorite DS9 episodes, with the worst listed at the bottom:

Move Along Home
Sanctuary
The Muse
Ferengi Love Songs
The Sword of Kahless
Valiant
The Storyteller
The Emperor's New Cloak
Meridian
Profit and Lace

Dita Alvarez

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POSTS: 8

Report this Aug. 01 2012, 11:24 pm

ahaha Wow, I forgot about The Sword Of Kahless! What a stinker!


 

TheDriver

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POSTS: 1652

Report this Aug. 02 2012, 5:24 am

I like "The Sword of Kahless."  I mean, it's not one of my faves, but it's definitely serviceable entertainment.  I can only assume you two dislike it due to the feud between Worf and Kor?  (I know a lot of folks seem to believe they both act out-of-character, ignoring the influence of the sword...)


 


Anyway, Logan, to answer your question about Trek novels?  I was born in '72, got into Trek around '83, and read a TON of TOS novels all through junior high, high school, and college.  (I even had the old FASA RPG, played StarFleet Battles, and read the DC comics series.)


Some of my favorite Trek books include The Final Reflection, How Much for Just the Planet?, Dreadnought!, Battlestations!, Best Destiny, and the Star Trek Logs.


I've also dipped into some of the TNG and DS9 novels as well, but while I enjoyed a few of Friedman's Picard-centric stories and the time-spanning Millennium trilogy?  None of these ever really "hit" me like the old TOS books.


And yeah, the "Season 8" relaunch was just a MASSIVE disappointment.  A Jem'Hadar "good guy?"  (groan)  A Jem'Hadar whose name rhymes with Tyrannosaur?  (groan)  A Quark and Ro relationship?!?  (groan)  A new captain of the Defiant who is (a) human, (b) more than 100 years old, and (c) seemingly acquainted with every influential Trek character?!?  (groan)  Bringing in the Borg?  (groan)  Ezri deciding she's more fit to be a starship captain than counselor?!?  (GROAN)  Worf going back to the Enterprise?!?  (groan)  I mean, the list could go on and on and on and on...


Just terrible stuff.


 


So Jim?  Did you get misty-eyed at the end of "What You Leave Behind?"  I only ask because, no matter how many times I watch it (and I've seen the series in its entirety four times now), that montage at the end just kills me every damn time.  Ha.  Yeah, I'm man enough to admit I probably shed a few tears ... or get choked up, at the very least.


I just really grew to love those characters.


Kudos to Behr, Wolfe, Moore, Echevarria, et al.


 


My Top 10 lists to follow...


"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast."

TheDriver

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POSTS: 1652

Report this Aug. 02 2012, 7:21 am

Okay, figuring out a Top 10 list for "the best DS9 episodes of all time" was actually pretty difficult...  I mean, I love so many episodes from this series!  And do I pick my favorites?  Or do I pick episodes that truly embraced the spirit of what I feel DS9 is all about?


Anyway, after careful deliberation, here we go:


"Blood Oath"


- This was the first time I realized the DS9 writers held TOS in reverence, unlike TNG.  Plus, the story was far grittier and more interesting than most of what we saw in TNG.  Obviously, DS9 was not afraid to shift focus to secondary characters and guest stars.  The plot was great, the action was great, the acting was great, and it was just a nice change of pace.


"The Jem'Hadar"


- This was THE game-changer for the series.  After a somewhat lackluster start dealing with Bajor/Cardassia relationship-building, DS9 yells, "Hey!  This **** is about to get CRAZY!!!"  Hahaha.  This was just a great tale full of warmth, suspense, action, and true shocks and surprises.  The Dominion was one of the best things to come out of DS9.


"Explorers"


- While I realize a lot of you turn to "The Visitor" for your gut-wrenching, tear-jerking, soul-fulfilling DS9 episode?  I like "Explorers."  Seeing Sisko appear more human, with a love of something other than Starfleet (or baseball) is fantastic.  He's a "builder" and, unlike what many people think when they hear "series set on a space station," a true explorer.  Sisko not only wants to build the Bajoran ship and learn a bit more about Bajoran culture, but he also wants to recreate a somewhat dangerous journey that may or may not have taken place in the past.  Plus, he wants dearly to bond with his son ... who shares that he does NOT want to go into Starfleet; he wishes to become a writer!


And in this episode, we get to see Bashir and O'Brien's friendship really take off, including O'Brien's confession that he used to hate Bashir.  Hahahaha.  Plus, the two of them get drunk together and sing "Jerusalem."


Just a fantastic episode full of great bonding moments.  I love it.


"Hard Time"


- Perhaps an odd choice, this episode really hit me hard.  (No pun intended.)  I always tell other Trek fans I see this one as a counterpoint to TNG's "The Inner Light."  Instead of living a lifetime of good fortune, with family, friends, and a respected position in the community, O'Brien spends a lifetime in prison.  And the relationship with his "cellmate" is a wonderful, yet tragic thing to behold.  I always wished the writers had revisited O'Brien's circular "artwork" from this episode.


Anyway, I found this to be a powerful and moving episode.


"Trials and Tribble-ations"


- Sheesh, how could any DS9 fan NOT include this one?!?  Ha!  Seriously though, this was a great achievement in special effects for the Trek franchise.  And as a TOS superfan, it was a real treat seeing Sisko and company interact with Kirk and the crew of the original Enterprise.  Worf's explanation for the change in Klingon appearance was fantastic, and "No, I'm pretty sure that's Kirk" gets me every time...


"Call to Arms"


- Hands down, this is my favorite DS9 episode.  This one turned me from a guy who liked DS9 into a guy who freaking LOVED DS9.  "Call to Arms" was just so full of great moments:  concerns over the continuing Dominion presence in the Alpha Quadrant, setting a minefield at the mouth of the wormhole, defending the station, sabotaging the computer system, evacuating the station (and Jake staying behind), Sisko's speech to the crew and occupants of DS9, Dukat's encounter with the baseball, and the image of that massive fleet at the end?  Chills, brothers and sisters.  Chills.


To me, this was THE best cliffhanger in all of Trek.  Just full of shocks, surprises, and the promise of utter badass action to come.


I LOVE "Call to Arms."


"Sacrifice of Angels"


- Quite frankly, there is not a lot of plot in this one; the Federation/Klingon Alliance retakes DS9.  But...  This episode is so full of such excellent ship-to-ship combat, how can you not love it?  I mean, before this episode had aired, we had seen very little in the form of fleet battles or even one-on-one battles between starships.  Yet here we see hundreds of ships engaging in a life-or-death struggle for the fate of the Alpha Quadrant - truly a remarkable achievement in the field of special effects for the franchise!


And the Klingons' "Han Solo moment?"  Priceless.


"Far Beyond the Stars"


- Wow, what a bold experiment for Star Trek.  Here, the writers take our familiar characters and place them in unfamiliar positions within the frame of 1950s America.  Instead of facing a battle with the Dominion and a struggle for freedom amongst the stars, Sisko faces a battle against prejudice and racism ... as a science-fiction writer!  Yet he manages to create the "reality" of the DS9  we all know and love, which leads the viewer to wonder whether Benny Russell is indeed the origin of  things ... or whether he is simply a figment of Sisko's warped imaginings (perhaps a vision from the Prophets?).


This was a fascinating, fun, emotional, and truly thought-provoking episode with some great acting on the part of everyone, especially Brooks.  It's a true gem in the entire franchise.


"In the Pale Moonlight"


- This episode will, more than likely, be in every DS9 fan's Top 10 list.  And again, this marks a shift from the more sterile environment of TNG to the darker, more realistic side of DS9.  Here, we see a man go through an immense moral struggle.  Do you save billions of lives at the sacrifice of your own soul?  And can you live with yourself at the end of the day?


This one featured excellent political intrigue and a complex ethical dilemma...  Great writing, great performances, and just a great Star Trek episode.


"The Siege of AR-558"


- Unlike a lot of science-fiction franchises, DS9 really took the time to provide a glimpse into the true horrors of war and conflict.  It's not all "pew! pew! pew!," laser blasts everywhere, and then lots of rejoicing.  It's physically and mentally taxing.  In fact, the writers (one an actual veteran) show that the Dominion War is EXTREMELY physically and mentally taxing.  And it was a brilliant move to inlclude the "softer" characters in this story as opposed to proven warriors and soldiers such as Worf, O'Brien, and Kira.  This one featured lots of great action, excellent musical choices, and truly memorable character moments.


"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast."

TheDriver

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POSTS: 1652

Report this Aug. 02 2012, 7:52 am

As for my 10 least favorite episodes of DS9?


"The Passenger"


- Gad, Sid's acting was bad here...


"Progress"


- Not a terrible story, but I find Kira's dealings with the old dude extremely tedious.


"Sanctuary"


- Lame flaky-skinned people wanting Bajor for their own?  Um, no.


"Life Support"


- Bashir gains a reputation as Dr. Frankenstein.  Not a fan.


"Prophet Motive"


- I actually like the Nagus, but "happy, giving" Nagus?  Nope.


"Crossfire"


- Man, Odo is a wuss.  Seriously, this one's hard to watch.


"Sons of Mogh"


- THAT was their solution?!?  Geezus...


"Let He Who is  Without Sin..."


- Seriously, Worf?  Seriously, Dax?  Seriously, Bashir?  Seriously, Leeta?


"Resurrection"


- Just a boring episode and not a great use of the Mirror Universe.


"Profit and Lace"


- Quark gets a sex change.  Sheesh, can you imagine the pitch for this one?  And then it was approved?!?


"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast."

TheDriver

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1652

Report this Aug. 02 2012, 8:02 am

Okay, I'm going to add another Top 10 list.


This one includes my favorite "fun" episodes.  You know, the ones that make you laugh, smile, and truly love being a fan of DS9:


"House of Quark"


"Little Green Men"


"Our Man Bashir"


"Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places"


"Trials and Tribble-ations"


"In the Cards"


"You Are Cordially Invited..."


"Take Me Out to the Holosuite"


"Treachery, Faith, and the Great River"


"Badda-Bing Badda-Bang"


"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast."

TheDriver

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POSTS: 1652

Report this Aug. 02 2012, 8:22 am

Now, you'll notice I arranged each of my three Top 10 lists in chronological order.  I just found it too hard to rank them.  So, yeah...


 


Anyway, I wanted to address "What You Leave Behind" for a moment.


I notice both Jim and Logan find TNG's "All Good Things" to be a better finale.  And while I certainly don't discount that opinion (because "All Good Things" is indeed a great ending to TNG), I sincerely believe "What You Leave Behind" is superior.


And that's due to the characters.


Throughout the course of seven seasons of TNG, we never really got to know those characters in the same way that we got to know the cast of DS9.  The friendships on the Enterprise-D were so ... clinical and professional, for the most part.  Yet, on DS9, those friendships and relationships were passionate!  Just look at Sisko's love for his son ... or O'Brien's annoyance with Bashir turning to true friendship ... or Garak's attempts to bond with Bashir ... or Dax's continued mentoring of Sisko ... or Worf's love for Jadzia ... or Kira's many romances, cultivating in a bizarre, yet rewarding love for Odo ... or Nog's rise from delinquent to respected Starfleet officer, earning the respect of his father and his friends ... or .... well, you get the picture.


So when we get to "All Good Things," Picard's journey to round up his old colleagues seems more of a "business venture" rather than a group of friends out to truly help one another.  In fact, the poker game at the end is a nice touch, but is hindered by Picard's own comment that he should have "done this a long time ago."  Yep, Picard, we (the audience) are in full agreement.


Yet "What You Leave Behind" provides an excellent wrap-up to the Dominion War, the "war" between the Prophets and Pah-Wraiths, and the fulfillment of Sisko's destiny while ALSO giving us great character moments with each of the cast.  And when we see them together at Vic's, we smile and think to ourselves, "yeah, these people are true friends and a true family and they've gone through A LOT together."  When they start to go their separate ways, it's heartbreaking!


And that final shot of Kira and Jake looking out the window of DS9 while the camera pulls out to take us into the infinte of space?  Beautiful.


"What You Leave Behind," to me, just blows away each and every one of the other Trek finales.


 


Finally, I just want to say that TOS and DS9 are, by far, my favorite Star Trek series.  I also like TNG, but never go out of my way to watch an episode.  And I don't think I've ever really revisited VOY or ENT.


 


Anyway, Jim, this journey has been a fun one.  See ya 'round the boards!


"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast."

Data Logan

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POSTS: 331

Report this Aug. 02 2012, 8:31 am

OMG, I had forgotten about "Sons of Mogh".

That should have made my list of 10 worst.

Dita Alvarez

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POSTS: 8

Report this Aug. 02 2012, 1:32 pm

Anyone who didn't get Misty-eyed at the end of "What You Leave Behind" has no soul in my opinion!


 


I enjoy everyone's top ten lists so far! You've all brought up a few episodes I had forgotten about,I think that "Sword of Kahless" could have been a great episode...if they had a better budget. It was all in a cave. They should have had more danger, thrown in a few creepy aliens, etc. I also forgot about the episode "The Passenger" That episode is so bad it's good! Siddig's acting was hilariously awful!


 


Okay, Here are my lists in no particular order.


 


TOP EPISODES


The Visitor


The best Trek episodes are the sad ones!



In The Pale Moonlight


Garak is one of my fave characters, he really shines here! It was cool to see that Star Fleet aren't all a bunch of boyscouts.


Sacrifice of Angels


My favourite episode of DS9! The ending with Dukat and Zyal was so tragic and heart breaking.


Indiscretion


Dukat is my favourite character. This episode really expanded Dukat's character. Dukat was certainly not a one dimensional villian. That is what makes DS9 so great, as oposed to shows like Voyager. All of the characters, including the Villians had depth.


In Purgatory's Shadow/ By Inferno's Light


Rocks and Shoals



Great tragic ending!


Far Beyond The Stars


Loved the story. I love 50's sci-fi stories. It was cool to see some of the actors without makeup.



The Maquis Part 1 and 2


Favour the Bold



Improbable cause/Die is Cast


The relationship between Odo and Garak was fantstic


Return to Grace


It was awesome to see Dukat and Kira team up to take out the kingons.


 


 




 


 


 

Dita Alvarez

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 8

Report this Aug. 02 2012, 1:40 pm

Bottom Episodes


Move Along Home


His Way


Not a fan of Vic or the Kira/Odo romance


The Emporers New Cloak


Let He Who Is Without Sin


Was Worf ever annoying in this episode! His soccer story was just so awful too!


The Quickening


Distant Voices


Battle Lines


Playing God


The Forsaken


I actually really liked the Odo/Lwaxana story! The story with the computers taking over felt stale. It has been done many times before


Extreme Measures


Sanctuary


Sword Of Kahless


The Passenger

enhancesys

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POSTS: 503

Report this Aug. 02 2012, 3:49 pm

Quote: Data Logan @ Aug. 01 2012, 10:35 pm

>

>The finale episode takes its title from the quote "What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others." And I think that says so much about what DS9 is about. More than any other Star Trek (except possibly Enterprise), there's a feeling of people's lives being changed by the events that unfolded on screen. Sure, other Star Trek characters have saved the lives of billions from time to time. But the lives impacted by the events on DS9 seem to resonate more. And probably, as we've said before, because the characters themselves were changed by them. It wasn't just "another day at the office, what's next" mentality.

>


This also echos the final words from Picard at the end of Star Trek Generations.  He says something like, "Someone (Zorin) once told me that time is like a Predator.  I rather think of time as a companion with us on the journey.  How we lived is more important than what we leave behind".


Jim


Just call me "Jim"!

enhancesys

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POSTS: 503

Report this Aug. 02 2012, 4:05 pm

Quote: Dita Alvarez @ Aug. 01 2012, 10:40 pm

>

>Hey, Jim

>...

>A bit off topic, but you mention that DS9 sits on the same mountaintop as TOS,TNG and ENT. Enterprise is the only show I haven't seen. I am a bit scared too,as I can't stand Voyager. Is Enterprise actually an okay show?

>


Dita,


I thought Enterprise was a TERRIFIC show.  There are many reasons why I liked it.  I'll try and give a few reasons without telling you outright spoilers.


The actors and their characters had great chemistry.  Like DS9, these were real people.  The Communications officer is kind of like Dax in that she doesn't like space flight.  Another character is overly shy.  The Captain disliked Vulcans.


These were the first truly deep space adventurers of Star Trek.  There are no protocols, prime directives, nearby ships, etc.  Yet, there are nods to all of these things and how they come to be in TOS times.  There is a terrific episode on pros and cons of needing something like a prime directive.


The ship is a character here.  You learn about it.  Transporters are brand new and nobody wants to use it!  "Photonic" torpedos and "phase cannons" come to be during the series.  And there is the somewhat overtly sexual "decon" room where crew members rub a gel on each other while in their underwear to decontaminate after away missions.


It is like DS9 in that there is a conflict during season 3 that is like the Dominion War.  It aired soon after 9-11 and has a terrorism tie to it.  Season 3 is dedicated to that conflict.  It is AWESOME!


Season 4 spends more time on creating the beginnings of the Federation.  It has several multi-episode story arcs that deal with the origins of Data from TNG, genetically engineered people like Khan, a vulcan religious arc and a 2 part mirror universe episode.


In short, I highly recommend it.  Early season 1 is fresh.  Like with any Trek, late in season 1 and early in season 2 it is a bit of a grind.  Enterprise meets lots of new civilizations and helps out but gets into trouble.  That got old but then it recovers.


The best episode is Carbon Creek.  A must-see!


Jim


 


Just call me "Jim"!

enhancesys

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 503

Report this Aug. 02 2012, 4:14 pm

Quote: TheDriver @ Aug. 02 2012, 5:24 am

>

>So Jim?  Did you get misty-eyed at the end of "What You Leave Behind?"  I only ask because, no matter how many times I watch it (and I've seen the series in its entirety four times now), that montage at the end just kills me every damn time.  Ha.  Yeah, I'm man enough to admit I probably shed a few tears ... or get choked up, at the very least.

>I just really grew to love those characters.

>


Driver, 


Yes, I got misty-eyed and for multiple reasons.  First, you are right in that the end sequences in which they reviewed past scenes of each character was well done.  The final scene with Kira and Jake and the fade-away of DS9 was well-done though I would have liked a verbal send off...perhaps a "These are the Voyages..." speech from Sisko in the background speaking as a Prophet.


Each person needs to move on to a new chapter in their life.  Kira seems to be the new captain of DS9 and finally can live and not have war hanging over her.  Worf moves on to work closer with his Klingon brethren and so on.  That can be a sad thing (and a happy one).


You have to realize that this is also the culmination of seeing all of Star Trek for me.  I have watched it for 40 years...since I was a small kid.  But there was always more Trek to see through the years.  Now there is none.  Some people may have felt similarly when ENT finished because that was the last tv episode that actually aired.


Jim


Just call me "Jim"!

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