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Seeing DS9 for the first time

Data Logan

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Report this Jul. 29 2012, 8:39 am

Ira Steven Behr was a big fan of how "The Changing Face of Evil" mixes the larger War stories with the trivial domestic stories; "We liked the idea of showing the domestic life. In the midst of all the pressures that Sisko is under, he still has issues at home. He's still a human being. Kasidy burns his peppers. That hurts! Life is hard, but you should not have to have your peppers burned!"
These Breen are pretty bad-ass. I guess it's fortunate we haven't pissed them off before.

And they keep talking about Davy Crockett's heroic last stand at the Alamo. That really made me wonder in my first viewing if DS9 was going to be the site of a heroic last stand.

Just like they did in earlier seasons with Jem'Hadar tech, eventually the Feds will figure out how to counter the new Breen weapon. Yeah SCE (Starfleet Corps of Engineers). But they have to hold the line at terrible losses in the meantime. They've already lost the Chintoka system and many ships. And the attack on Earth itself.

Poor Solbar. Winn is really going to the dark side now [using Jim's Star Wars reference]. Her thirst for power is getting the best of her.

Of the ongoing Winn and Dukat plot in this episode, producer and writer Behr comments, "She experiences self-loathing and loss, and you wonder, 'Okay, does she get it now [that she's a bad guy now and should stop]?' No, she doesn't. As soon as Dukat explains to her that she can cover the murder up, it's clear that [her own goals and power is] the only thing she's worried about. But when the smoke clears, she's [at least] still less tainted than Dukat. Dukat is still the master, the manipulator, the liar. They're quite a team."

Good call, Jim, on being curious about the Founder disease. It's coming. And it's big. Although it does lead to the poorest episode of the "Final Chapter", in my opinion; that one where I said they spend most of the episode inside someone's head.

enhancesys

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Report this Jul. 29 2012, 8:48 am

Logan,


I kept thinking that the Alamo story was somehow going to provide someone with an idea to fight the Breen or defeat the Dominion...might still happen that way!


Whew!  Some of these Captcha quotes are impossible to figure out.


Jim


Just call me "Jim"!

Data Logan

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POSTS: 331

Report this Jul. 29 2012, 9:31 am

Actually, although our heroes do have a significant role to play in getting some supplies for the work towards figuring out the Breen weapon, the actual "figuring out" of the tech of the Breen weapon and finding a defense to it will be left to SCE characters "off screen". [This was later written about in an SCE novella, actually.] I consider it a strength of DS9, actually, that the main characters do not HAVE to be involved in all plot points. It's more realistic that SCE would figure it out at some starbase with a big lab, than some random Starfleet people on some spacestation (DS9).

Besides, there's plenty more going on that our characters are involved with -- and some pretty important things that other Starfleet people wouldn't be able to do as well, if at all.

Data Logan

TheDriver

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Report this Jul. 29 2012, 12:03 pm

Jim's almost done...  Logan continues to quote from the Deep Space Nine Companion...  And this board CONTINUES to get hacked on a regular basis...  hahahaha


Anyway, Jim, I've been a member of StarTrek.com for years, and I can honestly say you are the ONLY person to ever call the Dukat/Winn soap operatics from these final episodes a "terrific storyline."



Yeah, most of the hardcore DS9 fans (the vast majority of which have been driven away these past couple of years due to poor board management) usually find that little B-story to be tedious and ... well, icky.


But Damar's crisis of faith, the emergence of a Breen superpower, the budding romance between Ezri and Bashir, Sisko's marriage vs. his fulfillment of destiny, the Federation/Klingon/Romulan Alliance against the Dominion, the destruction of the Defiant(!!!), the attack on Earth, Kira's induction into Starfleet, the Founder's disease, the machinations of Section 31, etc. all make for an incredibly fun ride.


And believe me, we can all notice how now that you're getting some great Dominion War action, you seem to have settled into good/great rankings.


Honestly, when you eventually decide to revisit this series?  (And you will.)  I have a STRONG suspicion that you'll rank a lot of those fair episodes as good.  Because I really feel you were getting so antsy to keep up with the war against the Dominion that some of those truly great done-in-one stories were, perhaps, shortchanged.


Anyway, I'm almost sad to see this thread nearing its end.  Despite my disagreements with some of your sentiments and opinions, I've really enjoyed reading a newcomer's perceptions on such a great series.


Later, Jim!


"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast."

Data Logan

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POSTS: 331

Report this Jul. 29 2012, 12:12 pm

Sorry, Jim.
I noticed that both Drivers and my last post contained some minor spoilers. Guess we're just getting overzealous in this great run of episodes. And sometimes it's hard to remember exactly what happen in each individual episode of the serialized "Final Chapter" 9 episode, 10 hour arc.

enhancesys

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POSTS: 503

Report this Jul. 29 2012, 2:00 pm

Quote: TheDriver @ Jul. 29 2012, 12:03 pm

>

>Jim's almost done...  Logan continues to quote from the Deep Space Nine Companion...  And this board CONTINUES to get hacked on a regular basis...  hahahaha

>Anyway, Jim, I've been a member of StarTrek.com for years, and I can honestly say you are the ONLY person to ever call the Dukat/Winn soap operatics from these final episodes a "terrific storyline."

>

>Yeah, most of the hardcore DS9 fans (the vast majority of which have been driven away these past couple of years due to poor board management) usually find that little B-story to be tedious and ... well, icky.

>But Damar's crisis of faith, the emergence of a Breen superpower, the budding romance between Ezri and Bashir, Sisko's marriage vs. his fulfillment of destiny, the Federation/Klingon/Romulan Alliance against the Dominion, the destruction of the Defiant(!!!), the attack on Earth, Kira's induction into Starfleet, the Founder's disease, the machinations of Section 31, etc. all make for an incredibly fun ride.

>And believe me, we can all notice how now that you're getting some great Dominion War action, you seem to have settled into good/great rankings.

>Honestly, when you eventually decide to revisit this series?  (And you will.)  I have a STRONG suspicion that you'll rank a lot of those fair episodes as good.  Because I really feel you were getting so antsy to keep up with the war against the Dominion that some of those truly great done-in-one stories were, perhaps, shortchanged.

>Anyway, I'm almost sad to see this thread nearing its end.  Despite my disagreements with some of your sentiments and opinions, I've really enjoyed reading a newcomer's perceptions on such a great series.

>Later, Jim!

>


Thanks Driver


Some random comments to your post...


1 - I think it was a joke but what is Deep Space Nine Companion?


2 - About the Dukat/Winn storyline...it is not so much that Dukat and Winn together make a great storyline.  It is more Winn's battle with her faith.  Trek has a terrible "radar" when it comes to issues of faith.  In this case, and perhaps it is the acting of Louise Fletcher, I think they are capturing her internal conflict perfectly.


3 - About the ratings and how they mesh with better Dominion War action...yes, they are going together but it is not automatic.  My take is that the writers of DS9 put me on this ride called the Dominion War...their choice!  Yet, they took FOREVER getting me here.  It should be expected that "diversion" episodes (given that there were SO many) would frustrate me.  It also built the suspense (not necessarily in a good way).  In short, the writers wrote the series as a serial so that aspect is likley to rate better.


4 - I've enjoyed having everyone here.  The different perceptions helped me to appreciate the series better.


Jim


Just call me "Jim"!

Data Logan

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POSTS: 331

Report this Jul. 29 2012, 4:07 pm


The DS9 Companion is a book written by Terry J. Erdmann (with Paula M. Block) published back in 2000.  It provides a lot of good back-ground information about the series.  Not in print any longer, nice new copies go for over $100.  But you can probably find reasonably-priced used versions for sale online.


I do have a copy of the Companion, but I haven’t read it in a few years.  The occasional quotes I include in my reviews generally come from Memory Alpha (the Star Trek wiki).  A lot of the information posted there did originally come from the Campanion.

enhancesys

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Report this Jul. 30 2012, 7:43 am

WHEN IT RAINS: Fair


In this episode, Kira and a team goes to a Cardassian rebel base to teach them new tactics.  Bashir runs tests on an extract from Odo to figure out the Founder's illness.  Also, Gowron gives Martok a significant award but then takes over his command.  On Bajor, Dukat tries to read the evil texts to help Kai Winn.


You know, just not a lot happened in this episode.  There were storylines but not much occurred.  Kira got to the Cardassian rebel base and they had some strategy discussions and some arguments but they really didn't start training them and they went on no missions.


Bashir ran some tests on Odo and found he has the Founder's disease.  I am not sure why he is the last one to show symptoms since he was the first one to be infected.  


Odo getting sick IS a significant development but nothing has been done with it so far.  We do find that it was done by Section 31 to infect the Founders.  Nobody wants to help Bashir with a cure because then it could be used to cure the Founders.  This is probably the most interesting part of this episode.


Gowron is getting more involved in running the fleet.  He is planning on a daring attack hoping to bring him lots of glory but he may end up endangering the whole Alpha Quadrant alliance since only Klingon ships appear to be immune to the breen weapon at this time.


The Dukat/Winn story has shifted from Winn's internal conflict to that of finding out how to free the Pah-Wraiths...that part IS boring.


I found it interesting that Kira is being kind of cold to Sisko.  She is clearly disappointed in him given he went against the Prophets.


This episode was largely a bridge between the previous and the next.  Like I said, not much really happened here other than fnding out about the disease and Section 31.


Jim


Just call me "Jim"!

Data Logan

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POSTS: 331

Report this Jul. 30 2012, 10:02 am

While the last 4 episodes all took place over just a few weeks, "When it Rains" and the next episode take place over months. And all the while the Breen and the Dominion are kicking a$$. I think it really helps to sell the grandness and scope of the story and universe, and just how complicated the war effort can be.

What a turnaround for Kira. Planning resistance attacks with the Cardassians against the Dominion. She has come a long way since the show started.

And she's in Starfleet now [sorta kinda anyway]. Although I must admit the title of "colonel" sounds better than "commander". [Kira did eventually make Captain in Starfleet in the books, during her time in command of DS9.]

When the episode first aired, the previews spoiled the fact that Kira was going to be in Starfleet garb. I actually thought it might have meant that Bajor had joined the Federation and the Bajoran Militia had been absorbed into Starfleet (as had been discussed in earlier episodes). But that never happens on the show; it is saved for later in the books.

Really, Kira shouldn't wear any uniform on a covert mission like this one. Just random, non-discript clothing to blend in. It's bad enough she's not Cardassian, but now she's wearing the dreaded Starfleet redshirt.

Love me some Kira -- and she's got Odo and Garak -- what's not to love.

I felt that Odo was beginning to get left out of the storylines of the last 5 or 6 episodes. I guess the writers decided to bring him back in. They needed to explore the changeling disease.

So, Odo was infected "over three years ago," during his time on Earth in the 4th season episodes "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost". Odo subsequently infected the Great Link in the fourth season finale "Broken Link". Presumably, he was also 'cured' of the virus in that episode when he was made a solid, and he was subsequently re-infected by the Female Changeling in the sixth season episode "Behind the Lines". This could also mean that Odo infected Laas when he linked with him in "Chimera". Poor Laas; he's not really involved with any of this.

It's possible Odo even had the virus during his time as a "solid". Because, was he really a solid at the time, or just a changeling who's shape shifting abilities had been "turned off"?

Data Logan

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Report this Jul. 30 2012, 10:09 am

As you mentioned, Jim, it's quite a coincidence that Odo is just now showing signs of the disease when he was infected so much earlier. But they say that's because he wasn't shape shifting much. Doesn't really hold true to me.

If the disease was meant to destroy the changelings, then it should show symptoms quicker, and kill you soon afterward. Of course you don't want symptoms to come on too fast. Because then the disease wouldn't spread very easily. The Founders would die before spreading it. Or they, at least, would quickly know that they have it and not spread it to others.

What would make more sense is if Section 31 had engineered the disease so that Odo was a carrier but not never actually got the disease. Just as Typhoid Mary never got sick. She just spread the disease. In fact THAT is exactly what the writers had planned. From the very beginning, back when they introduced the disease in "Treachery, Faith and the Great River".

I just think the writers made a mistake by deciding at the last minute to make Odo get sick. I understand that it was in order to make the viewers sympathetic to Odo's plight, but it just didn't make sense. And I think the story would have played out pretty well without it.

Garak actor Andrew J. Robinson felt that Garak and Damar should have had a scene in which they discussed Ziyal's death at Damar's hands in the sixth season episode "Sacrifice of Angels"; "The writers didn't give Garak a lot of room to adjust or react initially to Damar, given that Damar had killed Ziyal. It essentially went unresolved, and I had to squeeze some subtext into the beginning of the first scene between them."

Nana Visitor also felt that a scene between Kira and Damar in which they too discuss Ziyal would have been appropriate, but as she explains, "Ira pointed out that on a larger level, it didn't help anyone. We'd been trying to turn Damar into this new type of figure, and this would be a step backward. So we decided to focus more on Damar because he's the one torn between his Cardassian comrades and their feelings and dealing with Kira. It was the right choice."

chowderday

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Report this Jul. 30 2012, 2:36 pm

I just got done watching Move Along Home and its gotten hard to start watching episodes. Is there anything I can skip in the first few seasons, or is it essential to watch every episode?

Data Logan

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Report this Jul. 30 2012, 5:12 pm

chowderday:
I don't know exactly what you mean when you say it's hard to "start watching episodes", but I take it you don't like watching "crappy" episodes, or ones of lesser quality.

It's never "essential" to watch an episode. It is just a TV show, after all. Even if you mean "essential to understand what's going on in the next episode, or the big story of DS9", then still most episodes of DS9 could be missed. It is still mostly episodic TV, after all. And even then, it depends on which "threads" of DS9 story you want to follow. There are quite a few different threads going on.

If you are just interested in "Dominion" stories, for instance, then you can skip the entire first 2 seasons, except the 2nd season finale. But you will have missed out on significant stories in other threads, like "Kira learning to be more than a terrorist and actually forgive some Cardassians" or "Bashir and O'Brien becoming great friends" or "Nog grows up" or "Garak finds his way" or . . .

So, to really answer your question I would need to know which parts of DS9 you find "essential". And even if we could agree on what kind of episodes for you to skip, just how many do you want to skip? The 10 worst? The 20 worst? Watch only the 50 most essential?

Data Logan

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Report this Jul. 30 2012, 5:17 pm

I think if you just wanted to know the 10 worst episodes so that you can avoid watching them, I think we're all going to share our lists after Jim is done with the entire series. He only has 4 episodes left. (I thing "Move Along Home" will make some people's list.)

We're also going to list 10 best.

chowderday

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Report this Jul. 30 2012, 6:31 pm

Thanks Data Logan! By saying its hard to start watching episodes I mean I'm not dying to see the next episode after I watch one. I think I will keep watching it in order, bcause hte stories you mentioned sound interesting. I will say Captive Pursuit was a sweet episode.

enhancesys

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Report this Jul. 30 2012, 8:59 pm

TACKING INTO THE WIND: Good


This episode focused mostly on Kira's team stealing a Jem Hadar ship equipped with the Breen weapon and the conflict with Gowron causing Klingon casualties to make the popular Martok look bad.  There is also the story of Odo getting very sick.


The story line on stealing the ship with the Breen weapon is the most interesting.  Kira is having to work with Cardassians that hate her and what she is trying to do AND how she does it.  There was a great moment in which Damar found out his family was murdered by the Dominion.  He asked who could kill innocent people like that?  Then Kira looked right at him and repeated his question.  I think Damar then realized what the Cardassians had done to the Bajorans.  There is also what he did to Ziyal.


Which leads me to Kira.  What an OUTSTANDING character she has become.  Yes, she is a former resistance fighter who had anger issues but she has grown into a person of faith and thoughtfulness.  She loves Odo and knows what he is going through even though he tries to hide it.  Kira is my favorite character.


The scenes in which they steal the ship and kill the crew is good.  Kira played the voice of the Vorta so perfectly.


Worf stepped in and challenged Gowron for acting dishonorably.  Worf won and now the Klingons have new leadership.


Jim


Just call me "Jim"!

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