Star Trek Seeing DS9 for the first time

Seeing DS9 for the first time

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Report this Jun. 14 2012, 7:05 pm

Sacrifice of Angels was the climax of the station occupation arc, and eventually sets us up for the next one.

The battle was awesome, probably the best one seen in all of Trek. My main nitpick with it, is actually the Klingons. This is going to sound heartless, but why did they help out the Federation? The objective was to reach the station no matter the cost. The Federation had the entire Dominion fleet engaged, why didn't they make a run at the station? That would have provided a very refreshing and original alternative, making the Klingons save the day completely and Martok winning the bet.

Quark shows that he has a heart of gold under it all, though yeah... he's not front line material at all. One of the ironies of this episode is when Ziyal pleads for Rom's life, Dukat gives the enemies of the state deserve death speach. Then what sets Dukat over the edge is Damar killing Ziyal, who had become an enemy of the state.

Another funny line in the episode was Damar's "The Defiant is firing on us!" And Weyoun just says "Obviously!"

The topic of the Founders divinely interfering(basicly what it was), is contorversial and after this they start making demands of Sisko a lot, so there is consequence to this.

Dukat, well all I'll say is he's hard to keep down as he's already proven time and again. His mental breakdown will have consequences and he will be back.

But this isn't a reset button push by any means, except that the good guys have the station back and the the Dominion reinforcements can't get through.

But it's not over yet, just means the bad guys, who we'll semi-regularly get to see their point of view, are going to change strategies.

Data Logan

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Report this Jun. 14 2012, 7:08 pm

Nice to see Quark step up and help out in "Sacrifice of Angels". And Ziyal. Too bad that she had to die for it. (Was that the sacrificed angel? Perhaps, but more on that later in my post.)

This episode resolved a lot of threads from the prior 5 episodes. So much so that you would be lost if you hadn't seen prior 5. Great serial.

I love the scene between Dukat and Weyoun where they talk about what to do with Earth after they win. It just shows so much about each of the characters. Weyoun is cold and calculating, willing to kill his own friend if that's what's required to keep order. But Dukat wants not just victory, but greatness, to be recognized by even his enemies as a great person. Sounds like he's already going a little mad. And by the end of the episode he goes a bit farther. We'll see where Dukat goes from here, now that he's gone a little mad.

Now that Dukat's out of the picture, who's going to be the Dominion flunky at the top of the Cardassian food-chain? Yeah, obvious answer, Gul Damar is going to take over. He's a bit more of a yes-man. But he's no slouch either. Might lead to some interesting developments.

Odo may have came around to the right side in the end (just because he was afraid for Kira's life), but that doesn't excuse him his earlier actions. Certainly he will need to explain himself to Kira, at least, if he plans to continue any friendship with her.

OK, now for the big climax.
When this show aired, there were, of course, some criticisms of it having a deus ex machina ending, something which infuriated Ira Steven Behr. Behr stated, "I felt it was the perfect next step in the evolution of the relationship between Sisko and the Prophets that began in the pilot. Hearing people refer to it as some dopey deus ex machina is really annoying because I would think they'd give us more credit for being on the ball. We didn't have to end it like that, we CHOSE to end it like that. Because we wanted to say that there was something going on here. And ultimately, that would lead to [spoiler deleted]. The [Prophets] wouldn't have done this for just anyone. This was the man going out into the wilderness and demanding God to interfere, to do something for crying out loud. The corporeal characters had done so much in the episode; surely they'd earned the help of the gods.". Do not forget, the Gods/Prophets ARE characters in this story.

Even when they do help out by removing the Dominion fleet, they imply it's a one-time thing. They "stop" this one Dominion fleet (apparently by sending the somewhere else in time). But they would not do it again. Good thing no one apparently let the Dominion know that because they never again try to use the wormhole for the rest of the series. As far as they are concerned it's off-limits. The Federation could use it, but they don't because they're too busy fighting a war here in Alpha Quadrant. Basically, in the rest of the series, the Prophets and their Celestial Temple have more play than any wormhole travel to the Gamma Quadrant.

I think it's pretty significant and telling when the Prophets tell Sisko that he "will not find peace on Bajor". Sisko is "of Bajor", but will not find peace there. Sounds like a soldier to me (in this case a religious one at times). Soldiers believe in democracy strong enough to serve and fight for it, all the while serving in an organization that does not function on democracy. Soldiers are willing to make that sacrifice for their homeland. Like Sisko is willing to do so for Bajor (and in a larger sense, the Federation, of which it will inevitably become a part, even if not in this series).

In fact, it sorta surprises me that the idea of Federation membership doesn't resurface again in the series. Sure, Bajor would have to beak their non-aggression pact with the Dominion to do it. But maybe that's not such a big deal once you're pretty sure the Dominion won't be able to reclaim your space. OK, maybe now's not the right time to do it, since the Federation just barely reclaimed DS9 after four and a half months of Dominion occupation, and then only with the help of Gods. But you also don't necessarily have to wait until the war is entirely over with. Just to a point when you're fairly sure the Federation is going to win. But I guess maybe we'll see there never really was a time when victory was a foregone conclusion for the Federation. The Dominion is a hard enemy to defeat after al. I mean, this one confrontation required the help of Gods to resolve. What are the allies going to do without more help from the Gods? The Dominion (female changeling and Weyoun, at least) didn't seem too perturbed by the set-back; they think on a long scale.

In case you hadn't figured it out yet, Sisko is not the dashing swashbuckling hero type that wins in the end. He's a tragic character. Sure, he's basically good, but he makes mistakes. And sometimes he does bad things for the greater good. He'll probably win for the good guys in the end, but at what cost? What sacrifices will he have to make? Just his life, or something far worse? That's the real sacrifice of angels alluded to here. And just what more battles and enemies do the Prophets have for Sisko to fight?

Sisko is also a builder, as shown many times. He's the home-town engineer who got conscripted into military service and found he couldn't go home again. Except for Sisko somewhere along the way he discovered that home was not really Earth, where he was born and raised, but Bajor, where he's really "from". It is "not linear", but it's true. Sisko is the first (only) Star Trek captain who's not really from Earth, almost not totally human in a sense. Our first intergalactic captain.

worfsbum

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Report this Jun. 15 2012, 5:39 am

I really liked Quark in this episode. It's why he's one of my favorite characters.
And I liked how they took out Zyal. Another dark moment DS9 is good at using to change the tone of the episode. Glad you liked this one Jim.

enhancesys

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Report this Jun. 15 2012, 8:31 pm

Haven't had the chance to see an episode today. Had a lot of work to do and then me and my wife had a date night. We went to see Rock of Ages. I thought it was a movie about a rock and roll star. It's actually kind of a musical. I liked it though Julianne Hough just isn't the rocker they tried to make her out to be. Tom Cruise played his role very well.

The previews referred to the upcoming night in which 2 episodes of TNG will be played...Where No One Has Gone Before and DataLore. Both are fine episodes but they could have done a lot better than that. First of all, if people are going to sit there for an hour and a half then give them a 2-part episode. Also, give them something that can fill up a movie theatre screen. I think Best of Both Worlds would have been the best choice...2-parts, the Borg, action, big stakes and even a person who knows nothing about Star Trek can get it.

I saw TOS The Menagerie in the theatre. That is a very good episode but it came off as a little slow and dull in the theatre. You need more action there.

Question...if they did this for DS9 then which 2 episodes would you choose? Even though The Visitor is EASILY my favorite DS9 episode I probably wouldn't pick it for this venue.

Jim

Just call me "Jim"!

Mitchz95

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Report this Jun. 15 2012, 8:48 pm

Keep in mind that they had to choose episodes from season 1 only. TBOBW is in season 3-4.

"The Neutral Zone" wasn't bad, but not really theatre-worthy in my opinion. I didn't like much of season 1.

As for DS9 episodes...easily "Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast" and "In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light".

"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

Data Logan

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Report this Jun. 15 2012, 9:09 pm

They were limited to just the first season of TNG for the theater showing this July (because it relates to the release of the first season on BluRay). So, under that restriction, I think they made good choices. (I think there will also be small parts of other episodes from later seasons shown in HD as a teaser, but not full episodes yet.) Obviously if they had all seasons to choose from they could have made better selections.

As for DS9:
I can see how you can go with "Way of the Warrior". It has plenty of action. It already has the feel of a film because that's how it was produced. Lots of people like Klingons. Plus, it has the benefit of introducing the characters each to the audience as they are introduced to Worf.
But, personally, I don't like Klingons that much.
I would go with: "Improbable Cause" and "The Die is Cast". It's a great 2-parter. It has plenty of Garak and Odo, who are just great, especially together. There's plenty of action (although most is not Starfleet vessels). Plus, it's story is more central to the DS9 story than "Way of the Warrior".

enhancesys

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Report this Jun. 16 2012, 6:42 pm

YOU ARE CORDIALLY INVITED: Good

In this episode, Worf and Dax are following the Klingon rituals leading up to their wedding. Dax has to go through some trials to be accepted by Martok's wife into the House of Martok. Worf and Martok take Sisko, Alexander, Bashir and O'Brien into the holo-suites for a "Klingon bachelor party"...which involves pain and suffering.

I was worried this episode would be a crash back to Earth after the feast of action in the previous episode. This episode wasn't about taking over the galaxy but I liked it. You saw some Klingon culture (which usually bores me), a LOT of humor (like when Bashir "volunteers" to be first in one fo the rituals) and you saw Odo and Kira avoiding each other about Odo's behavior during the brief occupation.

No, this episode was funny and fast-paced.

Then, I was tired after a long day at the beach and needed to rest some more so I watched The Visitor. Still gets to me.

Jim

Just call me "Jim"!

Data Logan

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Report this Jun. 16 2012, 7:15 pm

In "You Are Cordially Invited", it was fun to see another strong female Klingon. (I still like Grilka better than Sirella.) So often they have ignored females in the Klingon culture, or even stated that they were less than men.

Odo and Kira talked all night in a closet, apparently getting over their trust issues. (Guess Odo happen to not need to regenerate that night, unless he did so in Kira's lap.) And that's about all the resolution we'll get from Odo's very questionable decisions during the Dominion Occupation, at least for now. But, hey, at least the writers acknowledge it a little bit.

I loved Dax's party. It's very Dax. This is Jadzia Dax at her best: fun, liberal, social.

Too bad some of Worf's family (his parents) and friends (EE crew) weren't able to make it to the wedding. That would have been cool. Or, hey, what about Jadzia's mother or sister, who we've never seen. That would have been great.

I loved that scene that hinted at Klingon democracy. And Serilla's family is not as pure as she purports. I love those moments when we learn the truth that vastly contradicts the "recorded" history.

enhancesys

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Report this Jun. 17 2012, 5:33 pm

RESURRECTION: Fair (barely)

In this episode, Vedic Bareil's mirror universe twin arrives. He strikes up a romance with Kira. Unfortunately, we find he is just using her (for the most part).

I'm afraid I don't have much to say about this episode. It is another mediocre mirror episode. DS9 went to this well too often. The ending was mildly interesting though much of the episode was way predictable. Kira's mirror character is fun to watch but she seemed to overdo it in this story to show the contrast between the 2. The best scene was Quark warning Kira about her new lover but in a subtle way.

Jim

Just call me "Jim"!

Mitchz95

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Report this Jun. 17 2012, 5:37 pm

Yeah, that sounds about right. I never really bought Kira getting attracted to mirror-Bareil so quickly (yes, I know she was with prime-Bareil for a while).

That episode really doesn't have anything to do with the Terrans vs. Alliance conflict, so it's just a filler episode.

Of course, pretty much any story would be hard-pressed to compete with the story arc that just ended...

Data Logan

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Report this Jun. 17 2012, 7:41 pm

I generally like stories that explore "the paths not taken", alternate universes, at least when they focus on one person and how he could be different if things had gone just a little different in his life. (I recommend the movie "Run, Lola, Run" by the way.) The mirror universe was an interesting concept for that reason. But it quickly became too ridiculous and a characterization of itself.

That being said, "Resurrection" was a pretty good mirror universe episode. Because it focused most on one character and his story. Plus, it's the only mirror universe story that doesn't take place at all in the mirror universe. That was an interesting difference. It was really more about Kira and Bareil Antos.

Although the episode focuses on mirror Bareil and how his life turned out so different than our Bareil, I felt like we never got a clear answer to that. And maybe that's more realistic: it takes a lifetime of many small decisions to become the man you become, versus some one significant event.

The real problem was that the episode didn't focus on mirror Bareil as a character, he was just a person for Kira to jump into a stupid relationship with, just a foil to allow Kira and mirror Kira to have a stupid conflict over, which of course involved changing into each others clothes.

Loved the little mention again of Captain Boday. One of DS9's "reoccuring" unseen (for budget reasons) alien characters. I always hoped that if DS9 went to the big screen they would have the money to actually portray one of these truly alien characters, like Boday or Vilix'pran.

Why is there an Orb on the station, anyway? As far as we know, there's only 2 of them in the entire Bajoran system right now (the Orb of Prophecy and Change that we saw on Bajor in the "Emissary" and the "Circle" trilogy, and the Orb of Time, that was returned to Bajor in "Trials and Tribble-ations"). Just who decided to leave an Orb on the station, where there are no vedeks to take care of it? And why did Kai Winn allow it?

The biggest question of this episode in my mind is: why is there a wormhole in the mirror universe, but the Prophets don't have a relationship with the Bajoran people there? From what we learned in "Emissary", the wormhole was artificially created by the Prophets/wormhole aliens. So, since the wormhole exists in the mirror universe, it stands to reason that the wormhole aliens exist there as well. But the wormhole aliens exist outside our dimension. Does that mean that the mirror universe has its own set of wormhole aliens in a different dimension, or does it mean that the SAME Prophets we interact with are the same set that made the wormhole in the mirror universe? Either way (2 or 1 set of Prophets), why do the wormhole aliens not bother communicating with the Bajorans in the mirror universe, but they do do so in our universe?

It just seems like a significant difference between the two universes. Certainly, I thought to myself, the writers wouldn't just create this situation just for some stupid reason like giving mirror Bareil something to steal from our universe. Certainly they thought this out more and this significant difference between the two universes is more important than they let on in this one "throw-away" episode. I was reminded of how the writers have in the past first introduced big things (like the Dominion) in stupid throw-away episodes. Certainly this apparent "throw-away" note about how the wormhole aliens don't send Orbs in the mirror universe is going to become important. Maybe we'll learn later on that in the mirror universe the Pah-wraiths control the wormhole. And the close relationship between our universe and the mirror universe can even be explained away as something that the Prophets and Pah-wraiths did as part of their continuing war with each other. And maybe in future episodes there will be a major Prophet-Pah-wraith battle in which our developed relationship with the mirror universe plays an important role. You know, that the mirror universe episodes aren't just all stupid throw-away episodes like they seem. Maybe, even, the Bajorans will come to have a better, more profound understanding of their relationship with the Prophets. You know, significant character development for the entire race.

But, alas, I was giving the writers too much credit. Nothing further would ever be said on screen about the very significant revelation that the Bajorans don't have Orbs in the mirror universe. Funny enough, though, it has become sort of important in more recent DS9 books that take place after the end of the TV show.

I did like the scene between Quark and Kira, Jim. And did you catch the reference to TOS "The Gamesters of Triskelion? (Just a visual on one of the crates.) I also liked some of the dinner scene, but not all.

enhancesys

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Report this Jun. 18 2012, 6:34 pm

STATISTICAL PROBABILITIES: Fair (barely)

This will be a poor review. I apologize. I saw it last night PLUS I just had an incredibly busy day. My brain has forgotten some of the detail.

In this episode, other genetically enhanced people are brought to DS9 to interact with Bashir who is also enhanced but considered "more normal".

The new people are pretty weird but also incredibly observant and intuitive. They watched Damar on a video and predicted a lot of what he was thinking.

They had predicted that there was no way the Federation would beat the Dominion based on their analysis. They pushed for surrender to save lives.

This gets back to the "Gattaca" effect. Can you predict everything based on science or can the individual traits of a person (or event) skew the analysis?

It is a decent premise to explore with a story but it was poorly executed with no real conclusion.

I welcome more input...

Jim

Just call me "Jim"!

Data Logan

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Report this Jun. 18 2012, 9:55 pm

I'm going to have to disagree with your rather negative review of "Statistical Probabilities", Jim. I thought it was pretty good.

The new patient characters (the "Jack Pack") are all interesting, well-developed characters, each one different than the next. It was interesting to see their own issues and how they play off each other.

The mute girl Sarina was an interesting take on a brilliant, but trapped mind. I guess she was lucky that she was even in control of enough of her own body to walk and eat. I could see a "failed enhancement" resulting in a person in a wheelchair hooked up to a feeding tube.

I liked how the Lauren character rarely stood up, preferring instead to lounge around sexily. Interesting note, the actress who plays Lauren here had previously played the female Benzite Starfleet officer Hoya in "The Ship".

I like how Jack could do things even Julian couldn't do. Even amongst super men, everyone still has limits and not everyone can do the same stuff.

It seemed weird that only Julian was watching these people. Didn't he have help? Like orderlies or something to watch the Pack when he wasn't available?

The Jack Pack has some pretty ridiculous accommodations. I mean, you're really just going to stuff these people into a communal cargo bay. No real beds? No privacy?

It's nice to see the internal comms have some security now (versus TNG "The Neutral Zone", when just anyone can use it to contact the bridge), but still easily defeated by a knowledgeable person.

You guys may know after reading my reviews of "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?" that I don't generally like the hate against the genetically engineered on Star Trek. But in this episode, at least the characters (the Jack Pack) had plausible reasons to not be "allowed" to enter normal society. They each had significant social and mental disorders. So, at least they weren't capable persons being forced into captivity just due to how they were created. And none of them had the issue of "absolute power corrupting absolutely", which I think is such a garbage argument against genetics. In fact, it seems that in the future even the mentally handicapped (and enhanced) want nothing more than to help "better" their society. So I was able to look past the minimal dialogue about how "eugenics is wrong".

I like how the Dominion is acting very much as you would expect. They are making logical decisions. They had some unexpected setbacks (most significantly in "Sacrifice of Angels") and are falling back and regrouping. And also extending the olive branch, although mostly just as a stalling measure.

The storyline (of surrendering in a war in order to make a predicted future better) was based on Isaac Asimov's classic psychohistory predictions from the Foundation Trilogy, which were themselves based on issues raised in Edward Gibbon's "History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire." The idea is that psychohistory can supposedly predict long-term history from an initial starting point, becoming more accurate the further you go, but fails to foresee the actions of a single individual, rendering the predictions more invalid the further you go into the future. Psychohistory is based upon mass action, and it can only predict the future when dealing with large groups, predicting trends in large masses of people, and you have to understand the basic drives of the general masses to begin with. That is why the unexpected actions of individuals are so powerful – when it gets down to individual people, the variables become so vast as to be impossible to calculate, so the predictions become unstable. The simple message: no matter how smart you are, you can never predict the future completely or accurately because any one unexpected discovery or new technology could have sweeping unexpected repercussion.
(Psychohistory has been mentioned a number of times in Star Trek novels, both before and after this episode.)

Still, you go forward in life making the best decisions you can based upon the best predictions you have for the future. You must. That's life, after all. And for that reason, the "Jack Pack" and Bashir can be forgiven for getting excited about their predictions. Bashir, especially, as a doctor, was focused on the loss of life and trying to minimize it. The thing I think they forgot is that some things are more important than "predicted loss of life", heck some things are even more important than real actual loss of life. Freedom, for instance, is more than just words. We do need to be ready to die for it. So, I agree with Sisko's argument (go down fighting), even if it was a bit heavy-handed (as he usually is, Sisko being the type of guy that latches on to what he believes is right, then won't let anything sway him from his path [even when it's to his detriment]). (Although, I may also want to have a plan going forward to help out the eventual future rebellion in the (likely) chance of a lost war with the Dominion. And what I mean by that, mostly, is: protect the information. Put away records of tactical knowledge, history and science and technology, maybe even art. Ensure the Dominion won't destroy it. Knowledge is power. You want to ensure the right amount is left for the future versus destroying it all in the current about-to-be-lost war.)

You can't even really argue against their morals. It's a moral grey area often argued by philosophers. You can find perfectly normal, not institutionalized, people that would agree with the tenant of saving as many lives as possible. Sometimes you do have to do bad things to accomplish the greater good. They just got focused on the nerdy aspect of the problem, where people are just numbers versus really preople with real needs -- which include the need to live free. Most people would agree, but not all. It is a moral grey area very open to debate. And that helps make it a better show.

It will be interesting to see how many of the Jack Pack predictions will come true, even their "crazy, unlikely, just-in-case" predictions (like the Romulans joining the war or an anti-Dominion uprising on Cardassian). And, even better, it will be interesting to see what they FAILED to predict that will undoubtedly lead the allies to victory.

TheDriver

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Report this Jun. 19 2012, 7:53 am

Hey, Jim!

Sorry for the lack of replies these past few weeks (months?)... I've just been incredibly busy and haven't had time to post in-depth analyses like some of your other followers. Ha.

Anyway, I HAVE been keeping up (with your posts only)!

And I have to say I'm surprised you struggled through that opening Dominion War arc; it seemed you only enjoyed "Call to Arms," "Rocks and Shoals," and "Sacrifice of Angels." Or "the action-heavy episodes." Which says to me you're STILL not really connecting to these characters.

I'd be lying if I said that wasn't a tad disappointing.

(You also might recall, in one of my first posts on this thread, that "Call to Arms" was the episode that turned me from a DS9 watcher into a DS9 superfan.)

And now, you find "Statistical Probabilities" merely Fair (if that)?!? Yowch.

Personally, I thought that was a great episode - extremely smart, humorous, creative, and insightful. Again, I'm guessing you just didn't connect to any of the genetically-enhanced members of the Federation's thinktank...

The revelation that the Federation/Klingon alliance should ultimately lose this war? Not exactly a typical Trek (or Roddenberry-esque) plot thread! And this will continue to be followed up on throughout the rest of the series; the Dominion War is TOUGH on our protagonists.

Oh well. We're bound to disagree on some of these rankings.

And even if you don't see me posting anything, please know I'll be checking in when I can.

Later!

"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast."

enhancesys

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Report this Jun. 19 2012, 8:18 pm

Driver,

Actually, I am connecting much better with the characters. Kira is now my favorite regular. Sisko is much more likable now that he better embraces his role as Emissary. Dax will never be my favorite but she shines best in "multi-cultural" episodes. Worf is no longer incompetent, etc.

I think the reason I've encountered some disappointing episodes recently is I feel the Dominion conflict was put off way too long. I got tired of waiting for it so ANY episode that was in between where I was and the conflict coming to a head was going to test my patience.

Thanks for hanging in there. I am very busy as well.

Jim

Just call me "Jim"!