Seeing DS9 for the first time

Data Logan

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Report this May. 05 2012, 9:21 am

My big problem with "Rules of Engagement" is this whole argument that Worf did something wrong. It may sound harsh, but just because he destroyed a civilian craft and killed innocent people it does not necessarily follow that he made the wrong military decision. It's regrettable that it happen, sure, but Worf can't necessarily be held responsible. You see, I've spent many years, decades really, of my life as a naval officer. And I have received a lot of training on military law in situations like this. And I think Worf's actions are perfectly justifiable under the circumstances.

You see, in circumstances like this, it's the means that are important, not the ends. Even though the ends are truly sad and regrettable, like killing innocent civilians, all that really matters in a court of law is did the military commander make the best/right decision based upon the information he had on hand. When you are in the heat of battle like this, you have plenty of evidence that tells a commander to expect that decloaking vessel to be an enemy combatant. And that is adequate justification for the commander to order weapons employment. In fact, in these types of situations, the commander would have an OBLIGATION to fire, not just a right.

Take the terrorist bombing of the USS Cole, for instance. That military vessel wasn't even in a heated battle, they were just doing a normal port entry. They let an apparent civilian vessel get too close to them and it blew up and killed 19 members of the military vessel's crew. And you know who was found at fault? The commander of the USS Cole. Because he failed to use appropriate force on that incoming, apparently innocent, small craft. The commander had strictly forbade his crew from firing on the small boat even though the threat condition called for it. And because of that, the commander of the USS Cole was found culpable for those 19 deaths.

Another relevant example would be the destruction of a Iranian airliner in 1988 by a US military ship. A tragic case, to be sure, 50 people killed on the plane and the military ship was never in any real danger. But the commander of that ship was found to have acted appropriately. He made the right choice based upon the information he had, which indicated to him (and any reasonable military officer) that his ship was in danger.

Worf's actions seemed reasonable to me. He was in a battle with vessels regularly cloaking and decloaking around him. They were following a certain pattern. Then a vessel decloaks following the exact same pattern. There was no reason to think it was anything other than a hostile vessel. Why would a civilian transport ship have a cloaking device? Or be in this area? I think he could have and should have easily won his case based on that. Assuming that intergalactic law is similar to current earth international laws and Starfleet regulations are similar to the US military regulations and the Code of Military Justice.

Where does Sisko get off yelling at Worf about not taking the time to verify his target before firing? When in Star Trek history have we ever seen anyone do that with a decloaking vessel in the middle of a battle? Has Sisko himself ever done that? Picard?
Remember the TNG episode "Arsenal of Freedom"? The Enterprise is being attacked by an enemy that keeps cloaking and decloaking. The Enterprise commander thinks he figures out the pattern and then fires weapons at the next expected spot even BEFORE the enemy decloaked. Certainly no verifying targets in that situation. And was the Enterprise commander considered in the wrong? No.

The real issue that Starfleet is facing is one of political turmoil. Certainly there's going to be public outcry over civilian casualties. And that's something Starfleet and the Federation is gonna have to deal with. But you don't take it out on the ship's commander if he wasn't in the wrong. Stop yelling at Worf, Sisko.

Ok, enough said about that part of this episode. Here's another interesting point that's more Star Trek related:
Worf is on the outs from the Klingon people right now because he made a decision (to not allow the Klingons to bully the Cardassians in "Way of the Warrior") that the Klingons didn't agree with. They think Worf is less than Klingon and not worthy of being in the Empire. Yet they also, apparently, want to bring Worf back to the Empire as a prisoner. OK, fair enough, but it's interesting that in order to extradite Worf they have to prove that Worf IS Klingon at heart. Wasn't that the very reason they don't like Worf in the first place? Because he is supposedly NOT Klingon at heart.
Still, getting Worf in trouble was not really what the Klingons were after. That was just a fringe benefit. They really just wanted to cause a political scandal and put the Federation and Starfleet in a bad light.

I did like the way the episode played back the events in flashback with the actors talking directly to camera.

Data Logan

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Report this May. 05 2012, 10:18 am

It was never really made clear in "Hard Time" just how much of o'Brien's implanted memories were forced on him and how much was his choice. I mean, of course the memories were forced into O'Brien's mind, in general, but his mind also had some control of exactly how the memories played out. Because he remembers doing things in prison that only he would do, like protest his innocence and talk about his rights as a human and Starfleet officer. Obviously the memory implant had to at least have been tailored to his sensibilities and personality.

So the question that brings up is: was the murder of Ee'char one of the aspects of the memory implant that was (1) forced onto O'Brien, or was it (2) an allowed "variance" in the memory implant that only happens when the inmate has that kind of mindset. It's an interesting question because if it was (1) just forced on O'Brien then he should be able to get over it quicker. He just needs to realize he didn't actually kill anyone, it was just forced on him. But if it was (2) just a possible outcome of the implant depending on the person then that means that some part of O'Brien is a murderer. Or at least capable of manslaughter due to temporary insanity.

It seems like we're suppose to believe (1) based on the episode and how quickly O'Brien gets over the murder. I know it didn't seem quick in the episode, but it still relatively quick in the sense that the issue is never mentioned again.

But I'm more inclined to believe (2) because O'Brien has always been a little less "perfect" than the other humans on the show. He's been shown to be a bit of a racist. And he has a bit of a temper. And we know he's killed before during the Cardassian war. It's not too far of a stretch to me that O'Brien could snap in extreme circumstances and kill someone.

Enrique Muñiz on the show again in this episode. Love seeing re-ocurring characters from the lower decks. And he survives again.

truck08

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Report this May. 05 2012, 1:52 pm

 


Data - concerning O'Brien, i believe it was his choice to murder his cellmate and not something programmed into the punishment. this adds some more weight to the episode and to to the character of Miles.


Also i think this adds to one of the common threads that runs throughout the series - humans are really no different in the future as they are now. They are capable of the same darker characteristics as we are now. I believe this concept really sets DS9 apart from the other Star Treks. That humanity is flawed and cannot completely transcend its flaws. Probably why a lot of other Trekkies/Treckers never really got on board the DS9 train for it did not fit in with Roddenberry's idealistic idea of humanity.


.

Blockman

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Report this May. 06 2012, 2:53 am

Quote: DaboDax @ May. 04 2012, 1:01 am

>

class="MsoNormal">She had a personal relationship with each of the characters and helped them develop: With Benjamin, she was his mentor; for Kira, she was a friend; to Bashir, she was a love interest; for Quark, a Tongo player and with Worf, a training partner.

class="MsoNormal">


Agreed! I loved the way DS9 wrote all the characters as having unique relationships with one another. Especially with how they were able to write Sisko.



Just another reason why DS9 is probably the best Trek series there is!


Mitchz95

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Report this May. 06 2012, 9:43 am

"Shattered Mirror" was great. I liked the Jennifer Sisko issue - "Is she my wife, or not?" And watching the little Defiant vivisect that massive Klingon dreadnought was just awesome. But how did that cheap, shoddy version of the ship survive longer than the 'real' one did in First Contact?


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

enhancesys

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Report this May. 06 2012, 6:42 pm

THE MUSE: Putrid?  Is that a valid rating?


I couldn't stand this episode from the beginning to the last 3 seconds.  Those last 3 seconds were the only redeeming aspect of this episode.


There were 2 storylines...Jake is approached by a mysterious woman who encourages him to write and Luxwanna Troi shows up on DS9 pregnant.


Jake meets this lady who touches him...inspiring him to write better and faster than he ever has.  She somehow helps him to write which she seems to feed off of while it hurts Jake.  However, he does it anyway becuase it help his writing.


Troi is being chased by a new husband who wants to take ownership of her unborn child as is the custom of his race.  Odo works with her on a sham marriage so she can keep her baby.  This is so not-Odo.  He would never do that.  He is about order and justice.  His is so into order that moving something in his room by 1 inch sends him over the edge.  It is always great to see Michael Ansara.  Nobody has a voice like his.


In the last 3 seconds of the episode it shows Jake finishing the story that "the Muse" helped him write.  His story was titled, Anslem.  This just so happens to be the story the young lady read in The Visitor.  That was a good tie-in.


Jim

enhancesys

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Report this May. 06 2012, 6:47 pm

FOR THE CAUSE: Good


In this episode, Sisko's girlfriend, Cassidy Yates, is suspected of being a smuggler for the Maquis.


This episode was a lot of fun.  Ben Sisko clearly was having a hard time investigating his girlfriend but still doing his duty.  What he didn't know is that he was being manipulated by Eddington.


I was really liking the character Eddington.  I was surprised how this went.


I didn't get the relationship between Ziyal and Garak.  Isn't he WAY WAY WAY older than her?  Isn't she a teenager?


Still, any reason to see Garak is a good thing.


Jim

Mitchz95

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Report this May. 06 2012, 6:58 pm

One thing I did like about "The Muse" (probably the only one) is Odo's speech during the mock-wedding, where he talks about how Lwaxana helped him come out of his shell. I thought that was touching.


"For the Cause" was, as you put it, a lot of fun. I was surprised (to say the least) when Eddington shot Kira right out of the blue. I was like, "What the ****?!"


What did you think of Eddington's parting words with Sisko? His view on the Federation's 'asimilation' pratices, etc.


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

Blockman

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Report this May. 07 2012, 4:04 am

Quote: Mitchz95 @ May. 06 2012, 6:58 pm

>

>One thing I did like about "The Muse" (probably the only one) is Odo's speech during the mock-wedding, where he talks about how Lwaxana helped him come out of his shell. I thought that was touching.

>"For the Cause" was, as you put it, a lot of fun. I was surprised (to say the least) when Eddington shot Kira right out of the blue. I was like, "What the ****?!"

>What did you think of Eddington's parting words with Sisko? His view on the Federation's 'asimilation' pratices, etc.

>


Lwaxana seems to make many people come out of their shell. Especially if she marries them and they have to perform the ceremony naked!


Data Logan

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Report this May. 07 2012, 5:01 am

Jim, I don't think you give Odo enough credit. He isn't just about order. That what his people, the Founders, focus on, and it's left them heartless. But Odo's always had more heart than that. Because he's not just about order, he's about JUSTICE. And as he said early on in the show (I think it was in "A Man Alone") "Justice is Justice". So, yes, Odo would be willing to help out a friend and her unborn child in "The Muse", even though it might disorder his life a little, because it's the right thing to do.

Did you notice the name drop? When Onaya mentions some of the people she had "inspired" in the past, she mentions the poet Tarbolde. This was the alien from Canopus Planet who wrote the poem "Nightingale Woman" which Gary Mitchell quotes in the Original Series episode "Where No Man Has Gone Before". Again, DS9 does great nods to earlier Star Trek shows, especially TOS, even when they are doing crap stories like "The Muse".

Data Logan

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Report this May. 07 2012, 6:54 am

"For the Cause" was great because it too chances and it told a story about real people with real flaws vice the Roddenberry idealized man.

Sisko has to balance his personal feelings, his duty, his family, his girlfriend, and his sense of justice -- and he fails. Great having a show were the protagonist fails every once in a while. (Although I must admit, I got a little tired of just how many flaws and failures Sisko racks up in the show eventually. I would have liked my leading character to be a little better. But at least the show makes up for it with a great supporting cast of characters.)

We start with a pre-marital sleep-over. There's a risk right off the bat. Better hope they used protection. Wouldn't want Kasidy to some day have to tell her kids: I had you while in prison because your father had arrested me.

Actually, I don't know if we'll see the character of Kasidy again. It'd probably be pretty hard for them to get back together with this significant trust issue -- she lied to him and he arrested her. But I do think the writers left it a little open. It's obvious that the relationship was pretty significant (hence the sleep-over) and ultimately Kasidy was only smuggling food and medical supplies versus weapons, etc.

But the true greatness of the episode was how the Maquis are used and depicted. "Nobody leaves paradise", indeed. Through the Maquis, I think we really start to question some of the more "glossed-over" questions about the "perfect" Federation. Just how perfect is it if people want to leave? (Notice how it's DS9 dealing with this question and not VGR; even though VGR has main characters that were Maquis and supposedly questioned Federation ideals.)

There's that word again -- insidious -- used to describe the Federation. Although the comparison with the Borg really went too far.

And we get to see springball. That was cool.

As for the Garak/Ziyal thing. I think it was natural that these two people would end up hanging out together. They share some significant Cardassian background and are otherwise outsiders. It is a little weird the age difference, but I think that was handled well. Although the young Ziyal may have felt some infatuation for this older man, I never got the feeling that Garak ever returned any romantic feelings, nor ever abused the girl's trust. He seemed above-board about the whole thing -- at least once he got over the feeling that she might have been trying to kill him.

Data Logan

DaboDax

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Report this May. 07 2012, 10:07 pm

Kitkat, as I apreciate your comments, they are probably better suited for another thread. The purpose of this forum is for Jim (or enhancesys) to review his opinions of DS9 as he watches. As he is only nearing the end of season 4 there is much that he has not seen. We must all be careful as to what we say so as not to ruin it for him. Mitch was only trying to help a fellow fan. We are all fans of Star Trek and should not fight with each other. If we are unable to do that then maybe we should be watching Babylon 5. The "we" that Mitch was talking about will include you if follow the startrek.com codes of conduct. It's always nice to have another niner on the boards and look forward to you having a unique perspective on the forum. Judging by your first post it seems that we like DS9 for different reason which is good because it will provide a variety of opinions in the discussions.


"Oh! She's got a worm in her belly!... oh that's disgusting. It's interestin', but disgusting."

Just a Simple Tailor

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Report this May. 08 2012, 12:26 pm

I joined this site specifically because of this thread. Seeing as how I am also watching  DS9 for the first time (what took me so long?!), I have thoroughly enjoyed your recaps Jim. It helps me to appreciate each episode a little more, and I am more eager to go back and watch certain episodes. So, many thanks indeed!

Back on topic: I, too, felt the same about Ziyal and Garak at first. After the episode though, I felt they did a good job of giving it a "Lost in Translation" sort of approach: two peole who need each other at that exact moment in their lives.

enhancesys

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Report this May. 08 2012, 12:53 pm

Thanks for joining Tailor!  Garak is one of the best characters on the show.  I always like episodes that revolve around jim.


Jim

enhancesys

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Report this May. 08 2012, 1:03 pm

TO THE DEATH: Fair


In this episode, a group of renegade Jem Hadar attack the station while Sisko is out on the Defiant.  He tracks them down but only after coming across another group of Jem Hadar.  It turns out the first group needed equipment off of DS9 to repair a "Stargate" that will allow the Jem Hadar to attack any planet without opposition.


So, Sisko joins up with the 2nd Jem Hadar group to defeat the first and destroy the Stargate.  There are conflicts between the Defiant crew and Jem Hadar crew...especially with Worf.


There is some good fighting scenes and they, of course, save the day.  Sisko saves the life of a Jem Hadar that had promised to kill Sisko.  The Jem Hadar allowed Sisko to live because of it...for now.


This is like an earlier episode when Bashir was helping the Jem Hadar with getting off of the Ketracel White.  The plot was extremely contrived in order to get them fighting together.  I had a hard time looking past that.


Jim

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