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Does anyone here have a great respect for Rick Berman as I do?

Sora

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POSTS: 2606

Report this Dec. 11 2011, 9:10 pm

I've always loved Rick Berman even as a kid I thought he was great. He made the best Trek. And after years of research and comparison and I just watched Trek Nation as well. I must say that I didn't have much respect for Gene Roddenberry to begin with, and after seeing Trek Nation I've lost what little respect I did have for him.


I just don't understand why people think Roddenberry is great?


 


Yes he had a great idea and came up with a great series, but that's all he did.


Even in TOS he didn't have much to do with the series. He created the idea and then everyone else pretty much did all the grunt work. Everyone else wrote the episodes. He just oversaw everything and decided what went and what didn't.


He didn't even stick around for the 3rd season of TOS. Which I think is the best season of the 3. And I actually thought that before knowing Roddenberry had nothing to do with that year.


It's also worth mentioning that the 1st and 2nd season of TNG that most people dislike so much, were the two seasons of TNG that Roddenberry had the most to do with.


In Season 3 of TNG Rick Berman had taken over most of the project.


I think Rick Berman did a supurb job and I enjoy his Trek much more than Roddenberry's Trek.


Roddenberry had a great idea, he just didn't know what to do with it.


One thing that I feel really makes TOS and to and extent TNG weaker is that he wouldn't allow for any conflict. He wanted a perfect world. That's great, but for the tv series, the perfect world all day every day gets boring. For a tv series, you want drama, you want conflict.


Which is why I think DS9, Voyager and Enterprise got into some conflict and I also think those 3 series are far stronger than TOS and TNG.


I don't credit Rick Berman alone for Trek's greatness. Without Roddenberry's vision there would be no Trek. And I know we had other great writers such as Michael Piller, Jeri Taylor, Ira Stephen Behr, Brannon Braga, Ron Moore, Robert Hewert Wolfe etc... there were alot of great writers in Trek.


I tend to see everyone make it all about Roddenberry, and then put down Berman. All I ask is, did Roddenberry do quite as much as what people think? From what I've seen he really didn't do much, and the people who worked with him, didn't like him and they'll say they didn't like him. They really leave you with this impression that Roddenberry was a jerk and very hard to work with.


I guess I'd just like to see Rick Berman get his share of recognition as well. I really felt Trek was better when Roddenbery wasn't involved with it. It was less restricted and able to do more without Roddenberry.


I realize to some this is total blasphemy, but it's just how I feel on the matter and I'm curious to know what everyone else thinks?

OtakuJo

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Report this Dec. 12 2011, 3:35 am

I think they're both good.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

Vger23

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Report this Dec. 12 2011, 10:36 am

I'm not much of a Roddenberry fan at all. I am GREATLY appreciative of his creation, but that's about the extent of it.


 


As for Berman, while I certianly don't DISRESPECT him, I really don't think he did much of anything for the franchise. He simply took the template of what had been successful in the past and "played it safe" with that template. He over-emphasized what he viewed as his responsibility to "Gene Roddenberry's Vision" at the expense of being bold and entertaining and creating good dramatic television.


I think Berman did some nice things and kept the franchise going...but at the same time he was never aggressive or bold enough to move it forward. He simply used the same template over and over and over again, and the franchise got stale in many ways.


That said, I TRULY believe that Gene Roddenberry would not have done any better. In fact, he may have done worse.


The people who I have the most respect for in the Trek franchise are neither of the two most immediately identifiable names (Roddenberry, Berman) because each played a role in bringing something new and challenging to the franchise rather than maintaining status quo:


Ron Moore


Ira Behr


JJ Abrams


Nicholas Meyer


Harve Bennett


Leonard Nimoy


Gene Coon


So, take that for whatever its worth.


I AM KEE-ROCK!!

Mugatu_for_Two

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POSTS: 127

Report this Dec. 12 2011, 10:46 am

I agree with your take on GR's contribution to Trek. I give him credit for getting it made and creating the templates for the series, but the real work on TOS was done by Gene Coon and Freddy Freiberger.


The best decision he ever made was to let Berman take over TNG. The show took off once that happened.


Unfortunatly RB couldn't parlay TNG's success into DS9 and VOY. I love both those series but they didn't appeal to a lot of viewers and then the decision to go ahead with 'Enterprise'...well...


 He flamed out pretty quick after that.

Camorite

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Report this Dec. 12 2011, 11:38 am

though i do admit that everything that i have read or watched about Gene Roddenbury do point to the fact that he was nowhere near the saint that some would have him made out to be, i have also heard that he worked really hard on the first two seasons of TOS (at one point nearly working himself into a mental breakdown) as well as on the first movie. However in the end his vision had clouded and he worked almost as hard to undo the franchise that he put so much blood and sweat into in the first place. in a way it is kind of sad.


as for berman, well i think that he just eventually caved under the presure of idiots-that-be at paramount who failed to see what Star Trek was really about instead of what they wanted it to be, and this ended up hurting Trek more then anything that GR did after the franchise was taken from him during the production of WOK.


in the end niether men were saints, but i believe that both GR and berman contributed a lot to some of the aspects that made Trek such a great show, as well as some of the things that led to where we are right now. The big difference is that while GR is praised for his work, and ignored for his failers, Berman is the opposite (blamed for his failers and ignored for his work), which is unfortunate for someone that brought us more great Trek in 15 years then GR did in the 20 years that he worked on it.


"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

Mugatu_for_Two

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Report this Dec. 12 2011, 11:55 am

Quote: Camorite @ Dec. 12 2011, 11:38 am

>

>The big difference is that while GR is praised for his work, and ignored for his failers, Berman is the opposite (blamed for his failers and ignored for his work), which is unfortunate for someone that brought us more great Trek in 15 years then GR did in the 20 years that he worked on it.

>


I think that sums it up perfectly.


I would just add this about GR. He truly loved Science Fiction and I respect that.


Jesus owes me gas money.

Treknoir

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Report this Dec. 12 2011, 12:44 pm

What Vger23 said times 2. I'm also going on the record as hating (maybe not hate, perhaps loathe) folks who refer to GR as The Great Bird of the Galaxy.


It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want. - Spock

OtakuJo

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Report this Dec. 12 2011, 7:12 pm

I have heard that apart from initiating the whole thing in the first place, Gene Roddenberry's other significant contribution to Star Trek is that he would often demand "out of the box" thinking from his writers -- in the sense of coming up with new perspectives on old sci-fi tropes. I think that Star Trek has continued this tradition (One of the reasons it has lasted so long) and Berman too has contributed to it.


I would not put either of them in a place above all others; Star Trek has been above all a collaborative achievement, methinks, and one should not overlook the contributions of Behr, Abrams, Fontana, Moore, and all those other writers (and crew, and cast...) But I say this while also acknowledging Roddenberry and Berman, not attempting to dismiss or belittle them.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

Sora

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POSTS: 2606

Report this Dec. 12 2011, 8:58 pm

Wow you really nailed it Vger. I couldn't say it better myself. To be completely honest, I'm actually shocked that so far everyone has agreed with me so far. Usually I'm the person who thinks the exact opposite as everyone else. I thought I would get attacked for not thinking Roddenberry was a God. But it seems that there is more respect for Berman than I realized. Pleasantly surprising.


Live Long and Prosper

Camorite

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POSTS: 5510

Report this Dec. 12 2011, 9:17 pm

Quote: Sora @ Dec. 12 2011, 8:58 pm

>

>Wow you really nailed it Vger. I couldn't say it better myself. To be completely honest, I'm actually shocked that so far everyone has agreed with me so far. Usually I'm the person who thinks the exact opposite as everyone else. I thought I would get attacked for not thinking Roddenberry was a God. But it seems that there is more respect for Berman than I realized. Pleasantly surprising.

>


Sora, this is due to the fact that there is a lot more information out thier about Gene Roddenbury and what he was really like.


"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

heronymous

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Report this Dec. 12 2011, 10:21 pm

I think Rick Berman did an awful lot for Star Trek . You don't seem to know a lot about Gene Roddenberry though ? I haven't seen Trek Nation , although I will be getting a copy sometime , and can't comment on the view in it yet . Gene Roddenberry may not have been involved in the last season of TOS . But during the 1970's though , he tried to revive Star Trek , and was responsible for getting the Animated Series '73-'74 on air , and of course The Motion Picture in 1979 . In the 1980's , Wrath of Khan '82 , Search for Spock '84 , The Voyage Home '86 , and The Final Frontier in 1989 . During the 1970's and 1980's , he constantly promoted Star Trek at Business , Fan and Science Fiction Conventions , and on radio and television as well . He was also responsible for The Next Generation 1987-1991 , and for hiring Rick Berman and putting him in charge .

stovokor2000-A

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Report this Dec. 12 2011, 11:01 pm

Quote: heronymous @ Dec. 12 2011, 10:21 pm

>

>I think Rick Berman did an awful lot for Star Trek . You don't seem to know a lot about Gene Roddenberry though ? I haven't seen Trek Nation , although I will be getting a copy sometime , and can't comment on the view in it yet . Gene Roddenberry may not have been involved in the last season of TOS . But during the 1970's though , he tried to revive Star Trek , and was responsible for getting the Animated Series '73-'74 on air , and of course The Motion Picture in 1979 . In the 1980's , Wrath of Khan '82 , Search for Spock '84 , The Voyage Home '86 , and The Final Frontier in 1989 .


Um, you claim others dont know a lot about Rodenberry, but it seemns your mis-informed as well.


Roddenberry was removed from the production and given the "bs tital" executive consultan of Star trek 2 when his script, which involved time traveling Klingons killing JFK was rejected.


And he only served as the executive consultan for the next 4 films, in which he didnt do very much for the productions of those films.


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heronymous

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Report this Dec. 12 2011, 11:23 pm

@stovokor2000-A  . It was a general comment directed at @Sora . But I will disagree with you ! This comes down to Studio Politics , and Roddenberry was still in charge and required to read the script and effect changes !

stovokor2000-A

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Report this Dec. 13 2011, 12:46 am

Quote: heronymous @ Dec. 12 2011, 11:23 pm

>

>@stovokor2000-A  . It was a general comment directed at @Sora . But I will disagree with you ! This comes down to Studio Politics , and Roddenberry was still in charge and required to read the script and effect changes !

>


you can disagree all you like, but you would be wrong.


I'm sure they gave him the scripts, but as a courtesy, and I'm sure they even asked and might have accepted some input, but even with all that he had very little say in how the story unfolded.


In the years before his death, he spoke about how he considered much of the events of the films as "not canon" and how he would have done them differently if he would have been alowed to do so.


Bottomline Gene was no longer in charge of the films after the first one, he did very little if anything at all as to the production of the other trek films..He was given a lot of control in the production of the first season of TNG, but even there his envolvement soon deminished.


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Camorite

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Report this Dec. 13 2011, 7:28 am

Quote: heronymous @ Dec. 12 2011, 11:23 pm

>

>@stovokor2000-A  . It was a general comment directed at @Sora . But I will disagree with you ! This comes down to Studio Politics , and Roddenberry was still in charge and required to read the script and effect changes !

>


stovokor is right heronymous, i suggest that you read Shatners Movie Memories book. Granted he may not be the best person to get most information from, but the accounts that he has gotten about GR's "demotion" after TMP is pretty much confirmed by other sources relieced over the last 15 years.


"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

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