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So is Deep Space Nine and Enterprise regarded as the two weaker series?

Sora

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POSTS: 2606

Report this Dec. 01 2011, 9:23 pm

I've been reviewing all of the old polls for Star Trek.com and taking a look at the results and total number of votes and so forth.


My take on Star Trek and Star Trek fans would be that the top 2 series would be considered The Original Series and The Next Generation.


Now according to the results of the polls, it definitely appears to be that way.


 


However, I always thought that Voyager and Enterprise were considered the two weaker series.


 


But looking at this polls that fans have voted in,most of the time Voyager beats Deep Space Nine. Regardless of what the question is.


 


For example, I thought it was crazy that the 2nd poll in the new version of trek.com was what is the best Star Trek series?


Next Generation won, which isn't a shocker.


But what blew my mind, is that Voyager was tied with the original series, and more than that, Voyager actually got more votes than the original series. Deep Space Nine and Enterprise and The Animated series are the ones that got the lowest amount of votes.


 


But I don't get it because most fans claim that DS9 is such a strong series and that Voyager sucks. Many people claim Voyager killed the franchise and caused Enterprise to fail.


But these polls would seem to be saying something else.


So is Voyager actually regarded above DS9? Are the top 3 series TNG, TOS and Voyager?

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 01 2011, 10:50 pm

Quote: Sora @ Dec. 01 2011, 9:23 pm

>I've been reviewing all of the old polls for Star Trek.com and taking a look at the results and total number of votes and so forth.My take on Star Trek and Star Trek fans would be that the top 2 series would be considered The Original Series and The Next Generation.

>Now according to the results of the polls, it definitely appears to be that way.However, I always thought that Voyager and Enterprise were considered the two weaker series.

>But looking at this polls that fans have voted in,most of the time Voyager beats Deep Space Nine. Regardless of what the question is.

>For example, I thought it was crazy that the 2nd poll in the new version of trek.com was what is the best Star Trek series?

>Next Generation won, which isn't a shocker.But what blew my mind, is that Voyager was tied with the original series, and more than that, Voyager actually got more votes than the original series. Deep Space Nine and Enterprise and The Animated series are the ones that got the lowest amount of votes.

>But I don't get it because most fans claim that DS9 is such a strong series and that Voyager sucks. Many people claim Voyager killed the franchise and caused Enterprise to fail.

>But these polls would seem to be saying something else.

>So is Voyager actually regarded above DS9? Are the top 3 series TNG, TOS and Voyager?


Most polls are misleading because people often vote based on personal taste and not an evaluation of the value of the product.


I dont think anyone in their right mind would say that TOS is a stronger then DS9, DS9 had far better writting, direction, character development


But they might say they like TOS better and site reasons of taste, nostalgia, love for certin characters or just for being first.


Personally, I think DS9 is the best/strongest Trek series ever produced, followed by TNG.


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TheDriver

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POSTS: 1652

Report this Dec. 01 2011, 11:39 pm

Wow, I've been gone longer than I thought if polls are showing DS9 as one of the two weakest series!


Sheesh, just two years ago, DS9 DOMINATED the polls as the highest-quality "best" Trek series.


Before Abrams' Star Trek? TOS even floundered near the bottom, as DS9 and TNG were considered the "superstars" of Star Trek. However, the new film put TOS (rightfully) right back on the map.


Personally, I feel the two strongest Trek series were TOS and DS9. TNG was a very good show, but fell just short of greatness due to its abundance of sterile, clinical relationships - a far cry from the camaraderie of Kirk, Spock, and Bones and the complex interpersonal workings of DS9.


Unfortunately for a cast of talented actors, VOY's entire (admittedly solid) premise was abandoned in favor of a copycat approach. Now, it will forever be known as a much weaker TNG-wannabe... "Find a planet, fix a problem, fly away" with little to no characterization other than cardboard cut-out archetypes (e.g., Kim as "nerdy guy with bad luck," Paris as "smart-mouth with a heart of gold," Chakotay as "that Indian-guy," etc.)


And ENT, while a very ambitious project, just couldn't find an identity:


S1 - "We're out here all by ourselves, and the Vulcans are jerks!"


S2 - "We're still kinda out here all by ourselves, and the Vulcans are still kinda jerks... And why are we continually getting our butts kicked?!?"


S3 - "We're one ship, and yet we're going to win a war (that's also going to provide us with a serialized storyline)!!!"


S4 - "Hey, maybe we should start trying to tie together our era and that future era with the knobs and digital readouts and regulation miniskirts and whatnot..."


"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast."

OtakuJo

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Report this Dec. 02 2011, 4:13 am

All I know for sure (and all I really care about) is that I personally feel that they are the two strongest series.


But no I don't think fans (in general) think of them as the weaker series -- at least not the ones I've come across. My experience is that fans all have different things that they like, for different reasons. And numbers in informal polls can only really tell you so much.


Actually they don't tell you much at all, really.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

TheDriver

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Report this Dec. 02 2011, 8:03 am

OtakuJo, you ever going to give TOS a shot?


Or does it just not look like your cup 'o tea?


I only ask because it seemed like you used to only be truly knowledgeable about DS9 and TNG. And if I recall correctly, you said you'd apparently seen just a little bit of VOY here and there.


Now, however, you seem to be quite familiar with both VOY and ENT. And calling ENT one of your two favorite Trek series? Because of the Andorians? Because of the similarities between ENT's third season and DS9's sixth and seventh seasons? Because you like Scott Bakula?


Curious...


Anyway, if you ever plan on finally tearing through the last Trek on your list, let me know what you think!


(Not only is TOS one of my two favorites, I just always find it interesting to see what other DS9 superfans like when it comes to Star Trek...)


"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast."

guillermo.mejía

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Report this Dec. 02 2011, 8:12 am

I can't see Voyager trumping DS9. I've recently begun discovering more of DS9, rather than just the famous episodes and the last season and It's really a good show.


A dedace later, I think Enterprise is deserving of more credit than it gets, specially with their 4th season. Voyager had it good moments but it wa sthe 3rd show in the same era. If anything, I think Voyager should be the weakest, by a slight margin under Enterprise.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

TheDriver

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POSTS: 1652

Report this Dec. 02 2011, 8:24 am

Yeah, you've almost just gotta start watchiing DS9 with "Emissary" and methodically make your way to "What You Leave Behind."


Believe me, DS9 is indeed a slow burn.


But man, is it worth it.


It's the LOST of the Star Trek set.


"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast."

guillermo.mejía

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Report this Dec. 02 2011, 9:03 am

As opposed to TAS, which IS lost, canon-wise.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

Vger23

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Report this Dec. 02 2011, 9:52 am

I have to say...I don't know if any of the Star Trek series on their own merits are truly "weak." They're all smart, well-written, well-produced, and well-acted series.


I think the later shows sometimes APPEAR weaker becuase they are follow-ups to follow-ups, and they become somewhat stale in their format and presentation. It's a shame, because they're all very good on their own as isolated entities.


 


I'd say that TOS is far and away the best. It's an American classic, and maybe one of the 3 best television shows ever created.


After that, I find DS9 to be the most high-quality of the modern shows. It dared to have a different format. It was edgier and more character-driven than the other modern spin-offs. It was a more rich and all-enveloping universe.


TNG is next for me, even though it is sterile and very preachy. The storytelling was excellent, even though usually the dramatic aspects were weak. There's some good stuff going on in TNG that is classically "Star Trek," and even the weaker episodes have some intelligent moments.


ENT strikes me as a series that, if produced earlier in the run of spin-offs, would have been greeted more kindly. At least they tried to build in some tension and some genuine character conflicts that could harken back to the electricity of the original series. And, the show was more in the pioneering spirit than TNG or VOY.


VOY I still put last. I'm just starting S3 now, and I'm still STRUGGLING to get though episodes. It just seems like a really watered-down almost kid-friendly version of Star Trek. It's TNG without the bold writing and better characters.

Pooneil

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Report this Dec. 02 2011, 11:19 am

If DS9 dominates the charts, I think it's because DS9 fans are more vocal on message boards. The average Trek fan is still going to see TOS and TNG as the top two -- with TOS pretty secure as a cultural icon. VOY and ENT also seem to be popular with casual fans and people who aren't enthralled by the various complicated complexities of DS9. There may be more of them, but they're harder to find, since DS9 by its nature will attract serious devotees and proselytizers who -- with total certainty in their objectivity and correctness -- believe that serialized plots and political machinations are simply better, and signs of more intelligent writing.


Which is not to say that they're right or wrong, or that TNG is actually better than DS9 after all, or vice versa; it's just that Niners are more likely to show up on websites and message boards all over the net declaring that DS9 was obviously the apex of the Star Trek franchise, whereas fans of the other shows, while more numerous, are less outspoken.


TheDriver and OtakuJo are both good examples. I have yet to see anyone match TheDriver's zeal when it comes to Voyager or Enterprise.

TheDriver

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Report this Dec. 02 2011, 12:20 pm

Really, Pooneil?


I consider myself fairly tame ... and just call 'em like I see 'em.


Have things really mellowed that much that people don't make fun of VOY and ENT any more? Sheesh!


Anyway, ready for a shocker?


 


I actually kinda enjoy VOY and ENT.


 


Just because I think they're the weakest Trek series? (And I do, man.) Well, that doesn't mean I won't watch an episode if I catch it on the TV.


And honestly, even though the concept of one ship vs. an armada is pretty ridiculous, I dig season 3 of ENT. Quite a bit, actually. (It's just those other seasons I have issues with... ha.)


"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast."

guillermo.mejía

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Report this Dec. 02 2011, 12:50 pm

Quote: TheDriver @ Dec. 02 2011, 12:20 pm

>

>Really, Pooneil?

>I consider myself fairly tame ... and just call 'em like I see 'em.

>Have things really mellowed that much that people don't make fun of VOY and ENT any more? Sheesh!

>Anyway, ready for a shocker?

>I actually kinda enjoy VOY and ENT.

>Just because I think they're the weakest Trek series? (And I do, man.) Well, that doesn't mean I won't watch an episode if I catch it on the TV.

>And honestly, even though the concept of one ship vs. an armada is pretty ridiculous, I dig season 3 of ENT. Quite a bit, actually. (It's just those other seasons I have issues with... ha.)

>
I don't understand how people can prefer any season of Enterprise over season 4. That's the season where, like is the case with Trek, the story-telling found their nitch, tackling stories more related with TOS than TNG. This show was a more direct prequel to TOS than TNG after all.


And we had great arcs like The Augments, The Vulcan Forge and Terra Prime, all of which used Trek's rich history as a base.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

Pooneil

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POSTS: 1023

Report this Dec. 02 2011, 1:45 pm

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ Dec. 02 2011, 12:50 pm

Quote: TheDriver @ Dec. 02 2011, 12:20 pm

>

>

>Really, Pooneil?

>I consider myself fairly tame ... and just call 'em like I see 'em.

>Have things really mellowed that much that people don't make fun of VOY and ENT any more? Sheesh!

>Anyway, ready for a shocker?

>I actually kinda enjoy VOY and ENT.

>Just because I think they're the weakest Trek series? (And I do, man.) Well, that doesn't mean I won't watch an episode if I catch it on the TV.

>And honestly, even though the concept of one ship vs. an armada is pretty ridiculous, I dig season 3 of ENT. Quite a bit, actually. (It's just those other seasons I have issues with... ha.)

>
I don't understand how people can prefer any season of Enterprise over season 4. That's the season where, like is the case with Trek, the story-telling found their nitch, tackling stories more related with TOS than TNG. This show was a more direct prequel to TOS than TNG after all.

And we had great arcs like The Augments, The Vulcan Forge and Terra Prime, all of which used Trek's rich history as a base.


TheDriver, I think I just pay special attention to your posts, and others in praise of DS9, so I can disagree with them. I'm trying to sharpen my debating skills.


Guillermo, I'm not sure where to start with Season 4 of Enterprise. The writers seemed to forget all the characters other than Trip and T'Pol, giving up the past three years of development. They gave up on any attempt to make the show stand on its own, and instead devoted several story arcs to answering trivia questions. They replaced character-driven episodes with more and more action and cluttered plots. They took out the science fiction and replaced it with politics. One two-parter didn't even have any of the regular characters. The show just became the worst kind of prequel: a totally redundant one.


One of these days I'll get around to posting when I agree with someone.

OtakuJo

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POSTS: 16362

Report this Dec. 02 2011, 3:12 pm

Quote: TheDriver @ Dec. 02 2011, 8:03 am

>

>OtakuJo, you ever going to give TOS a shot?

>Or does it just not look like your cup 'o tea?

>I only ask because it seemed like you used to only be truly knowledgeable about DS9 and TNG. And if I recall correctly, you said you'd apparently seen just a little bit of VOY here and there.

>Now, however, you seem to be quite familiar with both VOY and ENT. And calling ENT one of your two favorite Trek series? Because of the Andorians? Because of the similarities between ENT's third season and DS9's sixth and seventh seasons? Because you like Scott Bakula?

>Curious...

>Anyway, if you ever plan on finally tearing through the last Trek on your list, let me know what you think!

>(Not only is TOS one of my two favorites, I just always find it interesting to see what other DS9 superfans like when it comes to Star Trek...)

>


Ok lots of questions to answer.


* Yes I plan to give TOS a shot. As soon as I can get access to the DVDs and afford to purchase and all. I did see a few episodes here and there on the telly (and of course the movies and Trials & Tribbleations) and I guess it is my "final frontier" as far as Star Trek viewing goes. It looks very enjoyable but I just don't have access to episodes at the moment. (And no I can't get them on this site or through internet). It could be next year -- or it could be in another ten years.


* I did watch a lot of Voyager -- but it was quite some time ago and my memory of specific details is quite fuzzy. When I still had access to telly reception. While I was at uni I heard someone compare it to the Odyssey -- and I love the Odyssey -- so for that reason I was also predisposed to love Voyager. But everything I watch... I only have access to DVDs these days. I also intend eventually to purchase Voyager DVDs but this may also take a while.


* umm... Why do I like Enterprise? I mean it's a fairly close run between ENT & TNG & Voy for me but I quite enjoy a lot of the stories there and feel like I can connect to the characters. I am not a huge Captain Archer fan (he's probably my least fave cap'n because he doesn't seem to have the gravitas of some of the others...) but like I've said elsewhere, I don't tend to gravitate towards the captains of Star Trek as far as character stories go. The Xindi arc confused the hell out of me first time I saw it, although there were some interesting stories there too. Fourth season was just awesome ep after awesome ep... (except obviously for that fizzler of a finale) and I honestly think the fifth season might even have surpassed it -- if we had ever seen one. I don't think there's a simple reason.



Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

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POSTS: 16362

Report this Dec. 02 2011, 3:20 pm

Quote: Pooneil @ Dec. 02 2011, 11:19 am

>

>There may be more of them, but they're harder to find, since DS9 by its nature will attract serious devotees and proselytizers who -- with total certainty in their objectivity and correctness -- believe that serialized plots and political machinations are simply better, and signs of more intelligent writing.

>TheDriver and OtakuJo are both good examples. I have yet to see anyone match TheDriver's zeal when it comes to Voyager or Enterprise.

>


I don't recall proselytising to anyone -- but I do enjoy a little comparative analysis on occasion, and we all have our personal favourites. Which obviously means that I'm always going to be more able to discuss DS9 in detail than other Treks, because that's the one I watch the most (and read about the most and write about the most... I can only speak for myself in this matter.) I see the diversity of personal tastes on these boards as reflecting the diversity of Star Trek.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

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