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Voyager Reviewed From Start to Finish

Spouter

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 263

Report this Feb. 06 2012, 10:34 am

Quote: Broadstorm @ Feb. 06 2012, 6:59 am

>

>I have to disagree with you on Threshold, but Meld was decent, and we'll see more of Suder.  You mentioned Brad Dourif.  Have you seen him in Babyon 5?

>


Nope, havent seen much of B5, but i intend to get season 4 at least, as i remember reading impressive reviews of it at the time, and i remember seeing some scenes, late at night, of one of the characters being tortured by a nutty Emperor.

Broadstorm

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POSTS: 828

Report this Feb. 06 2012, 9:27 pm

I don't want to get too far off topic here, but Babylon 5 had a story arc right from the start.  Brad Dourif, Dwight Schultz, Walter Koenig & quite a few others you may recognize from Star Trek are in it.  The character being tortured was played by Andreas Katsulas, who also played Tomalak.

lostshaker

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2293

Report this Feb. 09 2012, 8:50 pm

Quote: Broadstorm @ Dec. 14 2011, 3:24 pm

Quote: Spouter @ Dec. 14 2011, 3:02 pm

>

>

>Around this time , many ST fans, including `expert' Mark Altman, criticised Voyager for being set in the Delta Quadrant. Altman, in his magazine `Sci-Fi Universe', described Voyager as `Awful', and commented that the premise was `inherently flawed', describing the Alpha Quadrant as `a vast area of space' with an interesting number of races, and fodder for stories. He added that setting Voyager in a different part of the Galaxy had it at a `definite disadvantage'. I cant understand this point of view at all. If Voyager had been set in the Alpha Quadrant, it would have been exactly the same as DSN, or more to the point, TNG - whats the point of having 2 ST shows on air at the same time (V & DSN) set in the same area of space? By setting Voyager in the Delta Quadrant, Berman and co were not only providing fodder for lots of new stories, races etc, but providing viewers with a contrast to the space station-bound show. DSN kept fans up-to-date with the latest developments with Klingons, Romulans, ferengi, Llwaxana Troi, Cardassians etc, while Voyager featured the new races of the Delta Quadrant - it was a great idea, and it makes the fans, like Altman, who opposed it, appear rather thick.

>

Voyager did have its problems, but I don't see the location as one of them.  I think they should have gone with a bigger ship with a bigger crew, bigger shuttle bay & bigger complement of photon torpedoes. to make it more plausible to have survived al long as it did.  Then there is the issue with the Kazon territory being so vast that it took approximately 18 months to cross it.  Again, I think they would have been better off dealing with the Vidiians over a longer time as it would make more sense for them to cover more territory.  Of course, it was the Kazon who looked (and acted) like Klingons, so they got stretched out.  The idea of the story was the isolation from the rest of StarFleet.  I wonder how this "expert" expects that to be accomplished in the Alpha Quadrant.


I disagree on the bigger ship, etc... That's just going to require more energy and be a drain on resources. Voyager's smaller size is advantageous in many ways... for example, landing on a planet to make external repairs as opposed to parking in orbit.

lostshaker

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2293

Report this Feb. 09 2012, 8:52 pm

Quote: Spouter @ Feb. 05 2012, 4:41 am

>

>THRESHOLD

>This is an excellent episode, so naturally, a lot of fans disliked it at the time?! I can never understand why good stories like this are criticised and duff stories like `Initiations' escaped unscathed. The basic premise of `Threshold' is marvellous - experimenting with speed to boldly go faster than anyone has gone before. Tom's mutation is well-handled and theres a great scene where he vomits his tongue out! The ending is perhaps a bit ott, but overall, this gets a big thumbs-up.

>


It's always great to hear from a fellow Braga fan The man doesn't always get much love. I too enjoy "Threshold" for the most part... with it falling flat at the end with Tom and Janeway having offspring and then their eventual restoration. Everything before that was good.


I can't wait for your review of a personal Braga favorite: Deadlock.

lostshaker

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2293

Report this Feb. 09 2012, 8:56 pm

Quote: Spouter @ Dec. 15 2011, 4:44 am

>

>Thanks for commenting folks, glad you agree with me.

>I could never understand, or respect, the views of fans who said the setting of the Delta Quadrant was a bad idea - i presume they didnt want to ever see anything new in Star Trek? Apparently, after the first season was over, a group of fans started a petition to get Berman to bring Voyager back to the Alpha Quadrant, at the beginning of season 2!! Unbelievable.

>


My only problem with Janeway was that she decided to head back to the Alpha Quadrant!

Broadstorm

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 828

Report this Feb. 10 2012, 5:31 am

Quote: lostshaker @ Feb. 09 2012, 8:50 pm

Quote: Broadstorm @ Dec. 14 2011, 3:24 pm

Quote: Spouter @ Dec. 14 2011, 3:02 pm

>

>

>

>Around this time , many ST fans, including `expert' Mark Altman, criticised Voyager for being set in the Delta Quadrant. Altman, in his magazine `Sci-Fi Universe', described Voyager as `Awful', and commented that the premise was `inherently flawed', describing the Alpha Quadrant as `a vast area of space' with an interesting number of races, and fodder for stories. He added that setting Voyager in a different part of the Galaxy had it at a `definite disadvantage'. I cant understand this point of view at all. If Voyager had been set in the Alpha Quadrant, it would have been exactly the same as DSN, or more to the point, TNG - whats the point of having 2 ST shows on air at the same time (V & DSN) set in the same area of space? By setting Voyager in the Delta Quadrant, Berman and co were not only providing fodder for lots of new stories, races etc, but providing viewers with a contrast to the space station-bound show. DSN kept fans up-to-date with the latest developments with Klingons, Romulans, ferengi, Llwaxana Troi, Cardassians etc, while Voyager featured the new races of the Delta Quadrant - it was a great idea, and it makes the fans, like Altman, who opposed it, appear rather thick.

>

Voyager did have its problems, but I don't see the location as one of them.  I think they should have gone with a bigger ship with a bigger crew, bigger shuttle bay & bigger complement of photon torpedoes. to make it more plausible to have survived al long as it did.  Then there is the issue with the Kazon territory being so vast that it took approximately 18 months to cross it.  Again, I think they would have been better off dealing with the Vidiians over a longer time as it would make more sense for them to cover more territory.  Of course, it was the Kazon who looked (and acted) like Klingons, so they got stretched out.  The idea of the story was the isolation from the rest of StarFleet.  I wonder how this "expert" expects that to be accomplished in the Alpha Quadrant.

I disagree on the bigger ship, etc... That's just going to require more energy and be a drain on resources. Voyager's smaller size is advantageous in many ways... for example, landing on a planet to make external repairs as opposed to parking in orbit.


The idea of the bigger ship is that it could withstand more abuse & would have a bigger crew.

lostshaker

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2293

Report this Feb. 12 2012, 10:40 am

Quote: Broadstorm @ Feb. 10 2012, 5:31 am

Quote: lostshaker @ Feb. 09 2012, 8:50 pm

Quote: Broadstorm @ Dec. 14 2011, 3:24 pm

Quote: Spouter @ Dec. 14 2011, 3:02 pm

>

>

>

>

>Around this time , many ST fans, including `expert' Mark Altman, criticised Voyager for being set in the Delta Quadrant. Altman, in his magazine `Sci-Fi Universe', described Voyager as `Awful', and commented that the premise was `inherently flawed', describing the Alpha Quadrant as `a vast area of space' with an interesting number of races, and fodder for stories. He added that setting Voyager in a different part of the Galaxy had it at a `definite disadvantage'. I cant understand this point of view at all. If Voyager had been set in the Alpha Quadrant, it would have been exactly the same as DSN, or more to the point, TNG - whats the point of having 2 ST shows on air at the same time (V & DSN) set in the same area of space? By setting Voyager in the Delta Quadrant, Berman and co were not only providing fodder for lots of new stories, races etc, but providing viewers with a contrast to the space station-bound show. DSN kept fans up-to-date with the latest developments with Klingons, Romulans, ferengi, Llwaxana Troi, Cardassians etc, while Voyager featured the new races of the Delta Quadrant - it was a great idea, and it makes the fans, like Altman, who opposed it, appear rather thick.

>

Voyager did have its problems, but I don't see the location as one of them.  I think they should have gone with a bigger ship with a bigger crew, bigger shuttle bay & bigger complement of photon torpedoes. to make it more plausible to have survived al long as it did.  Then there is the issue with the Kazon territory being so vast that it took approximately 18 months to cross it.  Again, I think they would have been better off dealing with the Vidiians over a longer time as it would make more sense for them to cover more territory.  Of course, it was the Kazon who looked (and acted) like Klingons, so they got stretched out.  The idea of the story was the isolation from the rest of StarFleet.  I wonder how this "expert" expects that to be accomplished in the Alpha Quadrant.

I disagree on the bigger ship, etc... That's just going to require more energy and be a drain on resources. Voyager's smaller size is advantageous in many ways... for example, landing on a planet to make external repairs as opposed to parking in orbit.

The idea of the bigger ship is that it could withstand more abuse & would have a bigger crew.


I got that the first time around, but it rests on potentially flawed assumptions... like the idea that a larger ship can take more abuse. The reverse is that a larger ship makes for an easier target. In DS9's "The Jem'Hadar", a Jem'Hadar battle ship collided with the Odyssey, a galaxy class ship. Both the Defiant and Voyager, however, were smaller and had a lot more maneuverability. Not to mention the fact that a bigger crew needs more resources to sustain living conditions, which could be inviting to hostiles and scavengers.

Broadstorm

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 828

Report this Feb. 13 2012, 5:00 am

Quote: lostshaker @ Feb. 12 2012, 10:40 am

Quote: Broadstorm @ Feb. 10 2012, 5:31 am

Quote: lostshaker @ Feb. 09 2012, 8:50 pm

Quote: Broadstorm @ Dec. 14 2011, 3:24 pm

Quote: Spouter @ Dec. 14 2011, 3:02 pm

>

>

>

>

>

>Around this time , many ST fans, including `expert' Mark Altman, criticised Voyager for being set in the Delta Quadrant. Altman, in his magazine `Sci-Fi Universe', described Voyager as `Awful', and commented that the premise was `inherently flawed', describing the Alpha Quadrant as `a vast area of space' with an interesting number of races, and fodder for stories. He added that setting Voyager in a different part of the Galaxy had it at a `definite disadvantage'. I cant understand this point of view at all. If Voyager had been set in the Alpha Quadrant, it would have been exactly the same as DSN, or more to the point, TNG - whats the point of having 2 ST shows on air at the same time (V & DSN) set in the same area of space? By setting Voyager in the Delta Quadrant, Berman and co were not only providing fodder for lots of new stories, races etc, but providing viewers with a contrast to the space station-bound show. DSN kept fans up-to-date with the latest developments with Klingons, Romulans, ferengi, Llwaxana Troi, Cardassians etc, while Voyager featured the new races of the Delta Quadrant - it was a great idea, and it makes the fans, like Altman, who opposed it, appear rather thick.

>

Voyager did have its problems, but I don't see the location as one of them.  I think they should have gone with a bigger ship with a bigger crew, bigger shuttle bay & bigger complement of photon torpedoes. to make it more plausible to have survived al long as it did.  Then there is the issue with the Kazon territory being so vast that it took approximately 18 months to cross it.  Again, I think they would have been better off dealing with the Vidiians over a longer time as it would make more sense for them to cover more territory.  Of course, it was the Kazon who looked (and acted) like Klingons, so they got stretched out.  The idea of the story was the isolation from the rest of StarFleet.  I wonder how this "expert" expects that to be accomplished in the Alpha Quadrant.

I disagree on the bigger ship, etc... That's just going to require more energy and be a drain on resources. Voyager's smaller size is advantageous in many ways... for example, landing on a planet to make external repairs as opposed to parking in orbit.

The idea of the bigger ship is that it could withstand more abuse & would have a bigger crew.

I got that the first time around, but it rests on potentially flawed assumptions... like the idea that a larger ship can take more abuse. The reverse is that a larger ship makes for an easier target. In DS9's "The Jem'Hadar", a Jem'Hadar battle ship collided with the Odyssey, a galaxy class ship. Both the Defiant and Voyager, however, were smaller and had a lot more maneuverability. Not to mention the fact that a bigger crew needs more resources to sustain living conditions, which could be inviting to hostiles and scavengers.


To use your expression, I got that the first time around.  Voyager lost crew along the way.  It also lost quite a few shuttles.  It was isolated for approximately 7 years.  It was stated early on that they had a limited number (38 IIRC) of photon torpedoes with no way to replace them.  They probably used more than twice as many after that comment.  I realize that a Galaxy Class ship was destroyed by ramming, but I would suspect that even an Intrepid Class ship could have been rammed by a Jem Hadar ship.  How many times did someone try to ram Voyager or Enterprise D?  How many times did Voyager's maneuverability keep it from being rammed?  Even if it took something even smaller & less maneuverable to ram an Intrepid than it takes to ram a Galaxy, there is still a matter of how much damage it takes to cripple it.  As for resources, a bigger ship would have needed more resources, but also would have had more crew & equipment with which to acquire those resources.  How desperate they were varied with the scripts anyway.  As for hostiles and scavengers, Voyager encountered many anyway, but some might have been more intimidated by a bigger ship.

Spouter

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 263

Report this Feb. 13 2012, 11:13 am

Quote: lostshaker @ Feb. 09 2012, 8:52 pm

>

>

>THRESHOLD

>This is an excellent episode, so naturally, a lot of fans disliked it at the time?! I can never understand why good stories like this are criticised and duff stories like `Initiations' escaped unscathed. The basic premise of `Threshold' is marvellous - experimenting with speed to boldly go faster than anyone has gone before. Tom's mutation is well-handled and theres a great scene where he vomits his tongue out! The ending is perhaps a bit ott, but overall, this gets a big thumbs-up.

>


It's always great to hear from a fellow Braga fan The man doesn't always get much love. I too enjoy "Threshold" for the most part... with it falling flat at the end with Tom and Janeway having offspring and then their eventual restoration. Everything before that was good.


I can't wait for your review of a personal Braga favorite: Deadlock.


[/quote


Yes, i love Brannon Braga's stories, and it was a shame when he didnt contribute as much to Voyager's final few seasons.


DREADNOUGHT


This episode works best if you are a particular fan of B'Elanna Torres, as the story, which isnt particularly interesting in itself, centres around her. The subplots are more interesting - after Tom redeems himself in the crew's eyes in `Threshold', he suddenly becomes very shoddy in his duties, and of course, the ongoing arc of the traitorous Michael Jonas.


DEATH WISH


This is an excellent ep, if only for the fact that we finally get to see the Q continuum. A great realisation of it as well - a long road stretching to infinity, and symbolically, a clock with no hands. Also symbolically, the Q play pinball with galaxies, and croquet with planets, emphasisng their Godlike abilities. The story is very interesting, and i noticed some TNG footage with the comet that Q was imprisoned in. Gerritt Graham gives a great performance, and the cameo from Riker is nice.

lostshaker

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2293

Report this Feb. 15 2012, 9:41 pm

Quote: Broadstorm @ Feb. 13 2012, 5:00 am

>

>To use your expression, I got that the first time around.  Voyager lost crew along the way.  It also lost quite a few shuttles.  It was isolated for approximately 7 years.  It was stated early on that they had a limited number (38 IIRC) of photon torpedoes with no way to replace them.  They probably used more than twice as many after that comment.  I realize that a Galaxy Class ship was destroyed by ramming, but I would suspect that even an Intrepid Class ship could have been rammed by a Jem Hadar ship.  How many times did someone try to ram Voyager or Enterprise D?  How many times did Voyager's maneuverability keep it from being rammed?  Even if it took something even smaller & less maneuverable to ram an Intrepid than it takes to ram a Galaxy, there is still a matter of how much damage it takes to cripple it.  As for resources, a bigger ship would have needed more resources, but also would have had more crew & equipment with which to acquire those resources.  How desperate they were varied with the scripts anyway.  As for hostiles and scavengers, Voyager encountered many anyway, but some might have been more intimidated by a bigger ship.

>


I just don't buy the large ship size. A smaller vessel permits consolidation, which equates to energy savings. Use energy to feed a thousand people vs. that same energy to build a photon torpedo? And if it were a large crew, think of how long each person would have to wait for holodeck rotation time. Scotty said it best, "The more they over-think the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."

bvbpl

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POSTS: 189

Report this Feb. 16 2012, 12:09 am


[quote]


Altman, in his magazine `Sci-Fi Universe', described Voyager as `Awful', and commented that the premise was `inherently flawed',


[/quote]


Voyager was fatally flawed precisely because it was stuck in the Delta Quadrant.  The dramatic tension of the show originated from the ship’s repeated attempts to return to the Alpha Quadrant.  In order to actually make this, well, dramatic, the ship had to be given occasional chances to return, but to maintain the premise of the show the ship needs to reject those chances.  This works fine for some time, but eventually the viewer has the feeling that Janeway and co. will avoid a wormhole to the Alpha Quadrant because there’s a cat up a tree.


It is a Catch-22 because keeping Voyager stuck in the Delta Quadrant ruins the dramatic tension, but letting them go home destroys the premise of the show.  It would have been superior if Voyager had found her way home some time into the series and then went on to do other interesting things.  I understand your point about having two Alpha Quadrant shows walking on each others’ toes, but that wouldn’t have been a problem for a show with good stable of writers (not that Voyager had that asset).   

Broadstorm

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 828

Report this Feb. 16 2012, 3:22 am

Quote: lostshaker @ Feb. 15 2012, 9:41 pm

>

>I just don't buy the large ship size. A smaller vessel permits consolidation, which equates to energy savings. Use energy to feed a thousand people vs. that same energy to build a photon torpedo? And if it were a large crew, think of how long each person would have to wait for holodeck rotation time. Scotty said it best, "The more they over-think the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."

>


I realize that a bigger ship with a bigger crew is going to need more resources, but a bigger ship would also be able to hold more in reserve from when they were able to replenish, and again, how screwed they were varied by script.  There may be more threads on here about how many shuttles Voyager lost than the number of shuttles they lost.  How many of the crew could be lost and still maintain operations?  With a crew of approximately 135, they had a spy & a traitor, quite a few deaths, and their Delta Quadrant help left by the end of the run.  Does anyone here have a count of how many of the crew died before Voyager made it home?  There was an episode in which members of the crew were disappearing, which of course was resolved before the closing credits, but that is what voyager would have been like by the en of the journey.  As for the holodecks, a bigger ship would have had more than 2, and if they were really that low on power, then the holodecks would have been shutdown most of the time anyway.  Aside from the Borg, most of which were too young to serve, they seem to have only picked up 4 people from the Equinox. 25 deaths in a large crew hurts, but 25 deaths in a small crew severely impedes operations.

Spouter

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 263

Report this Feb. 16 2012, 12:57 pm

Quote: bvbpl @ Feb. 16 2012, 12:09 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

class="MsoNormal">

class="MsoNormal">Altman, in his magazine `Sci-Fi Universe', described Voyager as `Awful', and commented that the premise was `inherently flawed',

class="MsoNormal">

Voyager was fatally flawed precisely because it was stuck in the Delta Quadrant.  The dramatic tension of the show originated from the ship’s repeated attempts to return to the Alpha Quadrant.  In order to actually make this, well, dramatic, the ship had to be given occasional chances to return, but to maintain the premise of the show the ship needs to reject those chances.  This works fine for some time, but eventually the viewer has the feeling that Janeway and co. will avoid a wormhole to the Alpha Quadrant because there’s a cat up a tree.

It is a Catch-22 because keeping Voyager stuck in the Delta Quadrant ruins the dramatic tension, but letting them go home destroys the premise of the show.  It would have been superior if Voyager had found her way home some time into the series and then went on to do other interesting things.  I understand your point about having two Alpha Quadrant shows walking on each others’ toes, but that wouldn’t have been a problem for a show with good stable of writers (not that Voyager had that asset).   


Thanks for commenting. This is a debate that will run and run among Star Trek fans. The thing is, i dont regard the show as a series about a ship trying to get home, its a series about a ship exploring unknown space. In season 3, Janeway and co realised they were not going to get to the Alpha Quadrant any time soon, and the emphasis changed to exploring strange new worlds etc. I agree with you that Voyager should have gotten back home before the series ended - i personally wish Voyager had lasted for a few more seasons, then, after 7 years in the Delta Quadrant, we could have had 2 in the Alpha Quadrant, which would have been an interesting change at that point (and also, there would have been no DSN to compete with).

Spouter

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 263

Report this Feb. 16 2012, 1:07 pm

LIFESIGNS


Love stories are one of the stock plots in film/tv, and it also seemed obligatory in the ST shows that EVERY regular character had to fall in love, whether they were suited to it or not. Its debatable whether the Doctor should have been allowed to fall in love, but i think it takes away from certain characters' uniqueness. It also seemed obligatory that even the most `evil' of races had to have a cuddly underbelly, so here we have a Vidiian female who is nice and friendly. The scene on the surface of Mars stands out, but otherwise, its the story arcs involving Paris and Jonas that are the best bits of this. I love the scene with Tom and Chakotay that ends with the first officer getting belted!

lostshaker

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2293

Report this Feb. 16 2012, 2:55 pm

Quote: Broadstorm @ Feb. 16 2012, 3:22 am

>

>I realize that a bigger ship with a bigger crew is going to need more resources, but a bigger ship would also be able to hold more in reserve from when they were able to replenish, and again, how screwed they were varied by script.  There may be more threads on here about how many shuttles Voyager lost than the number of shuttles they lost.  How many of the crew could be lost and still maintain operations?  With a crew of approximately 135, they had a spy & a traitor, quite a few deaths, and their Delta Quadrant help left by the end of the run.  Does anyone here have a count of how many of the crew died before Voyager made it home?  There was an episode in which members of the crew were disappearing, which of course was resolved before the closing credits, but that is what voyager would have been like by the en of the journey.  As for the holodecks, a bigger ship would have had more than 2, and if they were really that low on power, then the holodecks would have been shutdown most of the time anyway.  Aside from the Borg, most of which were too young to serve, they seem to have only picked up 4 people from the Equinox. 25 deaths in a large crew hurts, but 25 deaths in a small crew severely impedes operations.

>


If a ship has more resources then it is likely to attract people, good and bad. The bad guys aren't likely to be scared away from a crew that professes peace.


And while a crew may theorectically not use the holodeck, the crew of VGR did, as it provides a means of relaxation and escapism. It's not realistic to expect a crew with access to a holodeck or any form of entertainment to not employ it, especially on a journey that is to take 70 years at maximum warp.

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