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Proof that Enterprise happens in a seperate timeline?

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 17 2011, 12:15 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>star trek enterprise was not in a diffierent timeline or universe get over it and stop looking for flaws in the canon and nitpicking for no reason. star trek enterprise is considered canon and it is official canon its a COLD HARD FACT DEAL WITH IT.

>


who are you directing that at?


As for your comment, if it was all the prime timeline,thern Enterprise was indeed in a different timeline then the one Daniels came from.


Nitpicking and hunting for flaws is fun and one of the best things about being a member of a site like this.


I dont think anyone has question its canonosity [if thats a real word]


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Camorite

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Report this Dec. 17 2011, 6:48 am

Nitpicking and hunting for flaws is fun and one of the best things about being a member of a site like this.


actually stovol that is the one thing that i will never agree with. IMO nitpicking over something, especially something that has solid basis in canon or only has one tiny thing to contradict it, is a sign of either a troll or someone that dosn't have a good understanding of the material that they are trying to convince others of.


I dont think anyone has question its canonosity [if thats a real word]


Actually there are several around that are more then willing to question Enterprises place in trek canon. to be honest some might be thinking that of you if they read through the two debates that we have been working on.


"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

stovokor2000-A

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Report this Dec. 17 2011, 10:49 am

actually stovol that is the one thing that i will never agree with. IMO nitpicking over something, especially something that has solid basis in canon or only has one tiny thing to contradict it, is a sign of either a troll or someone that dosn't have a good understanding of the material that they are trying to convince others of.


I can agree nitpicking over minor details, like Kirks hight/eye color, is rather pointless.


But this particulsar issue, time travel and its effects, doesnt really have a "solid basis in canon" and the inconsistencies that I'm noting arent whatvI would call "tiny"..............and I'm far from a troll, I'm just trying to have some fun talking to others and thinking outside the box.


Actually there are several around that are more then willing to question Enterprises place in trek canon. to be honest some might be thinking that of you if they read through the two debates that we have been working on.


Well if thats what they are thinking then need to re-read everything I posted, or at least ask me questions to clarify my position.


I'm of a mind that the fandom has been misusing the word Canon, that everything that is officaly produced, comic,novels,kid coloring books, is canon, but takes place in one of the many parallel timelines/universes we have seen over the years.


So, those stories may not be in continuity with the Prime timeline/universe, but they are asll canon.


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Broadstorm

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Report this Dec. 17 2011, 4:53 pm

Based on what I have seen, Enterprise does seem to get singled out the most for the "It violates canon so let's slam it & say it doesn't fit" attitude.  There have been things established in the other series that are contradicted, some even within the same series.

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 17 2011, 6:11 pm

Quote: Broadstorm @ Dec. 17 2011, 4:53 pm

>

>Based on what I have seen, Enterprise does seem to get singled out the most for the "It violates canon so let's slam it & say it doesn't fit" attitude.  There have been things established in the other series that are contradicted, some even within the same series.

>


I know that there are people that like to do that.Whst I ment before was that none of us currently participating in this topic seem to be making those claims


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guillermo.mejía

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Report this Dec. 19 2011, 6:44 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Dec. 17 2011, 6:11 pm

Quote: Broadstorm @ Dec. 17 2011, 4:53 pm

>

>

>Based on what I have seen, Enterprise does seem to get singled out the most for the "It violates canon so let's slam it & say it doesn't fit" attitude.  There have been things established in the other series that are contradicted, some even within the same series.

>

I know that there are people that like to do that.Whst I ment before was that none of us currently participating in this topic seem to be making those claims

Some TNG shows reconned the TOS era. It happens when dealing with a show about the future. I don't think there's really any decent evidence that ENT is a seperate timeline.


You want to slam a show for being non canon, turn to TAS. That show has enough to fuel any non canon rant.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

guillermo.mejía

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Report this Dec. 20 2011, 7:48 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>leave the animated series alone as far as i am concerned it is also official star trek canon.

>
I'd love to, but stuff like the Kzin, the Bonaventure class and Robert April's wife make it pretty much impossible.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

Matthias Russell

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Report this Dec. 20 2011, 10:32 am

Yeah, the Bonaventure is right out! I thank TAS for introducing some great elements and having fine original ideas only animated could do, but it can't be taken seriously on the whole.

ENT haters have no solid ground to stand on as it probably has fewer inconsistencies than any other show. Sure there are some doosies like how quickly they made it to Quonos and Archer later being on Risa and saying it's as far out as he'd been. But those are very minor and Ent probably explained more inconsistencies with the other shows than it itself made.

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 20 2011, 9:49 pm

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ Dec. 20 2011, 7:48 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>

>leave the animated series alone as far as i am concerned it is also official star trek canon.

>
I'd love to, but stuff like the Kzin, the Bonaventure class and Robert April's wife make it pretty much impossible.


"pretty much impossible"???


Would you mind explaning why?


Keerp in mind I haved watched all of TAS since I was a kid.I have the DVD set, but so far have only watched 3 episodes


 


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Broadstorm

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Report this Dec. 21 2011, 5:12 am

The biggest continuity issue I noticed with TAS was some mention of a war (may have been the Kzinti episode) having taken place hundreds of years earlier, but there have been bigger problems with other series.  As for Ent, there was someone in a different forum who wrote it off as a "lie" over the screen shot from TMP, but said I nitpick too much for finding fault with his favor series (DS9) even though I simply pointed out that it was imperfect without completely writing it off. 

guillermo.mejía

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Report this Dec. 21 2011, 5:41 am

"pretty much impossible"???


Would you mind explaning why?


Keerp in mind I haved watched all of TAS since I was a kid.I have the DVD set, but so far have only watched 3 episodes


No problem


1. The Earth/Kzin Wars - The episode "The Slaver Weapon" establishes the concept of an ancient espicies known as the Slavers who existed billions of years ago and had an empire that ruled most of the known galaxy. The only evidence of their existence is know the so-called stasis boxes which remained from their culture, which contain all sorts of things, from specs that helped creat much of the modern technology used by Starfleet, to meat preserved for a billion years.


The premise of the episode is Spock, Uhura and Sulu have to keep a weapon discovered in one of these boxes from the Kzin, a race of feline beings who had 4 different wars with Earth 200 years ago, defeated each time. I know you are a firm beliveer in the 2266 to 2270 date, but general assumption (with which I read you agreed with) places the 5 year mission of the Enterprise somewhere in the 2260s. This means that the Earth/Kzin war happened when Earth had just come out of WWIII, and Zefram Cochran had just discovered Warp Speed. To assume Earth won 4 wars against a space-faring culture of warrios is more than far-fetched.


Plus that episode was written by Larry Niven, as a crossever with his 'Known Space' saga, or whatever.


2. Bonaventure Class - straight out of Scotty's mouth, the Bonaventure class is described as the "1st ship to carry Warp drive" and as we have seen with ENTERPRISE, that is plain wrong, as black and white as it gets. No "first ship with a warp 7 drive" or none of that; Scotty clear said first ship with warp drive, period. Nowadays, that honor does to the Pheonix, and whatever came after it. If you want to split hairs and say that Scotty meant it wa the first large Starship with warp drive, I don't see how you can back that up either, since that honor would fall to the 22nd Century Intrepid Type, NX Class or whatever came before.


3. Robert April's wife is just as clearly stated as being the first chief medical officer aboard a starship. Phlox completely oblitorates her comment. But even if someone were to say "oh, McCoy meant first cheif medical officer aboard a FEDERATION starship" that can't be either, because the federation was founded in 2161, as stated in ENTERPRISE, and the good Mrs. is not that old.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 21 2011, 11:45 am

 


To assume Earth won 4 wars against a space-faring culture of warrios is more than far-fetched.


Based on the info you just posted, [thasnks btw] I see this as a possible contradiction..They werent really specific with the years so a litte "after the fact" writing should be asble to fix this issue easily.


2. Bonaventure Class - straight out of Scotty's mouth, the Bonaventure class is described as the "1st ship to carry Warp drive" and as we have seen with ENTERPRISE, that is plain wrong, as black and white as it gets.No "first ship with a warp 7 drive" or none of that; Scotty clear said first ship with warp drive, period.


Ok, based on your info [again thanks] and a bit of research at Memory Alpha, I dont see a big issue here.


MA states thast Bonaventure was in servvice several decades before the 2260's........which is rather vague.The NX Enterprise started service in the 2150's........which csan be seen as "several decades before the 2260's"


Also, MA stastes that the Bonaventure's maximum emergency velocity was Warp 2.5, which is much less then that of the NX ship.


If something else is the issue please explain.


3. Robert April's wife is just as clearly stated as being the first chief medical officer aboard a starship. Phlox completely oblitorates her comment. But even if someone were to say "oh, McCoy meant first cheif medical officer aboard a FEDERATION starship" that can't be either, because the federation was founded in 2161, as stated in ENTERPRISE, and the good Mrs. is not that old.


could be he meant "STARFLEETS" first chief medical officer aboard a starship.


Maybe she was the first that was also an officer.


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stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 21 2011, 7:23 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>i cant remember who said it but someone high up in star trek said if its appears on tv it is official star trek canon and that includes the animated series. it is the books that are not official canon.

>


the so called "official" word has changed a few times in the past, even when it involves books.


I see no reason to trust their word


 


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guillermo.mejía

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Report this Dec. 22 2011, 1:21 am

There's so many funny little things about the never made season 5 of Enterprise. One of the proposed stories for a 2 parter was a rogue Kzin vessel that the Enterprise would have to deal with. Had this happened, I'm sure the date issued would have been fixed. As it stands, we only have Sulu's "200 years ago" comment, but I agree that it's easy to recon this.


I've seen MA article on the Bonaventure Class, but there's an issue here. If you read the Introduction to memory Alpha article, they talk about how they treat TAS as full canon, even though it was Gene Ronddenberry's wish that it was excluded. In fact, the MA article has a lot of speculation such as "To truly be the first starship with warp drive, she would have had to be launched before the SS Valiant was launched and lost in 2065 and after the launch of the Phoenix in 2063." The rest of the article is info taken out of none-canon sources, such as the Star Charts. I wouldn't put too much weight behind this MA article to defend the Bonaventure Class, at it is based on MA's faulty policy regarding TAS.


And yes, McCoy could have meant that, but the episode states that she served as CMO while her husband commanded the Enterprise. Given the fact that April has reached the mandatory retirement age of 75 (another, smaller issue in TAS canon), and the fact that Constitution Class vessels were fairly recent (needing to be so to be the gold standard in Starfleet) the Enterprise cannot be from earlier than the 2240s...2230s if I allow myself to really stretch the fact that Starfleet developed no better ships in 30 years and just kept refitting the Constitution Class.


Anyway, that would mean that Federtaion Starfleet vessels operated WITHOUT a CMO from 2161 up to the mid 23rd Century. Given that the NX Class already had a CMO, it seems...very very very very wrong to call her the first CMO aboard a starship.


*FYI, MA's article on Sarah April refers to her as the first CMO of the Enterprise, but that is NOT what the episode says. Her line "I was the first CMO aboard a starship" makes it seem, that for some baffling reason, Starfleet chose to abbandon that position? Not impossible, but just highly, highly, highly doubtful.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 22 2011, 7:23 am

I dont hold anything MA has in very high regard, I only point to it because it shows that a bit of addinal writing can sovle some ,if not most issues with out re-writing any canon.


Also, I dont regard anything Rodenbery wanted or stated about what should be canon to be of any worth when talking about a subject like this.


The man changed his mind on whats casnon all the time, and bottomline, he had no influance in the matter.


Was it said how many years April was in command of the Enterprise, did they say he served all his years on 1 ship?......did they even say how long he was an officer............Again keerp in mind I havent seen the series in a long time so these are honest questions.


And it would only mean that Federtaion Starfleet vessels operated without a STARFLEET CMO between the years you mentionedThe NX Class had a CMO that wasnt a member of STARFLEET, he wasnt even from earth.


 


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