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Captain Sam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 151

Report this Dec. 07 2011, 1:05 pm

when it comes to people going back in time, intentional or not, close enough is the best result one could hope for. Do to the "Chaos Effect", I believe it would be virtually impossible to repair all the damage. So horse shoes and hand granades it is. lol


The only way to correct a timeline back to its originallity is to stop the time encurssion before it happens.


 

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 07 2011, 1:16 pm

@Captain Sam

Firsthand,secondhand or fifteenthhand, it doesnt really matter, none of the other hands would have happened with out the first in the chain.So Nero's actions would be the root cause of those possible changes to history before he arrived in the past.

And I'm sorry, but as far as the show has depicted it, the Mirror universe examples proves you wrong.The Mirror counter parts have been depicted as different people, different characters.Identical in appearance and in some other ways maybe, but they are different in as may ways as well, and any difference amounts to them being DIFFERENT.No less they even say that "most" of these different counterparts have a different quantum signature.Bottomline, they have been depicted as different characters,different people.

And the math pretty much proves you wrong on the Garry 7 issue as well.To bottom line it, in order for the Gary 7 event to be a true predestination paradox , not only does the answer has to be "5" but the equation must still be "2+3".

Why would you think that only the outcome must be the same???Thats not logical.

Like I said, history as a force of nature, isint only going to care about the results, its going to care about every detail, everything would have to be exactly the same if it is a predestination paradox, nothing can deviate.


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stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 07 2011, 1:19 pm

Quote: Captain Sam @ Dec. 07 2011, 9:37 am

>

>As i take tylonal for the NU crew Headache lol

>@ guillermo.mejía

>I agree that Neros apperance could have time reaching repercussions. Im just saying the those effects are second hand as he himself doesnt effect events that he is not physically appart of.


But he would be the cause of those possible effects.


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stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 07 2011, 1:20 pm

Quote: Captain Sam @ Dec. 07 2011, 1:05 pm

>when it comes to people going back in time, intentional or not, close enough is the best result one could hope for. Do to the "Chaos Effect", I believe it would be virtually impossible to repair all the damage. So horse shoes and hand granades it is. lol

>The only way to correct a timeline back to its originallity is to stop the time encurssion before it happens.


this time I fully agree


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Captain Sam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 151

Report this Dec. 09 2011, 11:04 pm

The Hands do matter my friend. Nero could not possibly be responcible for what the Nu Crew did. he could only be responcible for the fact that they're the ones that went back. They are respocible for there own actions. If i go into a store and buy the last coke on the shelf and the person behind me wanted a coke also, i am only responcible for the fact the there not getting a coke... lol. What they choose to buy in it place is totally ther decision. I am not responcible if they choose to get a Dr Pepper instead of a Pepsi.


He could not possibly be the cause of those effects. He would be responcible that their the ones causing the effects instead of the TOS crew, but their decisions are their own.


your crazy lol according to the show the mirror counter parts are depicted as the same people and same universe. Just opposite. Prime equals good, Mirror equals bad, two sides of the same coin. As with a coin its possible for the signitures to be different but it's still the same coin.


what are you talking about man... it's either a Paradox or it isnt, there no grey area where Paradoxs are concerned. In the Gary 7 issue, a missle was detinated and a certain place and time as recorded in history. For this to be a P Paradox only two things need to happen. A ship from the future has to travel back and interviene and the missle has to detinate at a certain place and time. Its not up to the paradox to determine how this transpires, the fact that it does is what makes it a paradox. The ship doesnt even have to be the Enterprise. with the Nu time line the Enterprise could be busy else where, Starfleet would have sent another ship in its place and Nero wouldnt even be responcible for that. You cannot blame Nero for ever thing that accures in the new timeline.


Its not logical to think that A paradox cares how it came to be. It just is, thats all that matters.


 


Its just not logical to blame Nero for everything.


Hell, technically Neros not responcible for any of the changes at all, Spock is! Had Spock not used the Red matter then Nero would still be in his own time. So while everythiongs being blamed on Nero, Technically its Spock fault, he choose to detinate the red matter when he did.


 


The thing about forces of nature... they are driven by instinct or radomness, nohing else. A stampeid of buffalo dont care where they run when their scared they just run. A hurricane does not care where it makes landfall or if it even does. the buffalo care that there running away from what scared them and the hurricane... well it just blows till it cant blow no more lol Paradox.. a force of nature, i think not, more like a result of nature.


well regaurdless of all that maybe in the next film, the Timeship Relativity will stop Spock an Nero from going back in time. Then maybe we will get the movie we should have gotten in the first place. Kirk and Spock the younger years. I could accept the changes as a product of franchise modernization much better then the inconsistancies being forced down my throat as a result of a new timeline.


 


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stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 09 2011, 11:58 pm

The Hands dont matter buddy, Those "possible" changes wouldnt have happen if not for Nero, so  Nero would "INDEED" be responsible for what the Nu Crew does .If not for Nero and his actions, history would have unfolded the way it originally did, but now it may not, and thats Nero's fault.


If you go into a store,buy the last coke and an other guy wanted it, you would only be responsible for your actions.But, if you then build a time machine, use it to go back in time, leave a 2nd can of coke for that other guy to buy, and he did, ... then not only would you be responcible for what that guy bought, but you would have also changed history.Nero is guilty of every change in history because he made the first change.


Your saying I'm crazy??? how can they be the same and opposite at the same time.Being opposite is being different.Just look at the defintion of the word "opposite"


op·po·site 


 Adjective: Having a position on the other or further side of something.
Noun: A person or thing that is totally different from or the reverse of someone or something else.
Adverb: In a position facing a specified or implied subject: "she was sitting opposite".


And your "coin" analogy fails because its not on point.A coin has 2 sides, but its 1 object.If I melt that 1 cxoin both sides are melted, because its i object.If I kill mirror Kirk, Prime Kirk continues to live because they arew 2 different people/objects.Like a coin, we all have different sides,a front and a back, even our personalities have different sides. But these are different universes, with different histories and different people............that just happen to look a lot a like.Its really no different then twin siblibngs.The mirror counterparts are just like twins....but they are different people.


I never said the P Paradox cares how it came to be or that it cares for anything at all, I'm not even sure how you came to that conclusion.Heres what I'm talking about... Look at the word "Predestination"..........the word comes from "predestines" or "predates"

For the Gary 7 event to be a true PREDESTInation Paradox then everything involved must have been presestined and must happen again with the exact same factors with no changes.The same ship with the same crew from the future has to travel back and intervene with how the missile.If there are any changes to the events then its not the same event, then its not predestined.


You are right about one thing, it is Spocks fault Nero made it into the past in the first place, but I wouldnt blame him because he had no ill intent in his actions, he had no plans to created a time travel event or go to the past.Nero did indeed have ill intent,and once he learned he was in the past he knew full well that his actions would lead to changes in history.And like I said at the start of this, Nero's actions created a great deal of changes to the timeline, but so far no one has posted any "in narrative inconsistencies"


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Captain Sam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 151

Report this Dec. 10 2011, 5:20 am

The hands do matter. Nero may be responcible for the Nu crew going back, i'll give you that, if indeed they are the ones that go back. But he is not responcible for what they do once they are there, no more then he is responcible for what they had for breakfast that day. Nobody can take away free will. Not Nero, not a paradox, not even God. A path may be laid before us but it is our choice in how we choose to take that path, if we choose to take i at all. My parents choose to bring me into this world but what i do here is my own. They are responcible only to the point that they are the reason im here, nothing more. you either cant comprehend the difference or choose to ignor it to suport your claim.


Just like the Inconsistancies, plenty have been brought before you, you just refuse to believe them and thats your progative, your choice. That doesnt mean they arent there, just like i choose to believe they are there and that i am in control of my future not anyone else even my makers. Thats my choice.


your right about the coke. if "I" went back and added a second coke then i would be changing history. Thats first hand. Now if he is driving down the road and tossed that can out the window and it hit another car causing and accident... the accident is my fault? I think not, thats just a ridiculous assumption. not to mention second hand. but then again he may have choosen to throw the other can out the window or maybe he liked coke better and drank it faster so when he threw it out it missed the other car. Or maybe if i had not went back and put the coke there he would have got the other drink and drank it slower and threw it out and missed the car therefore no accident. all of that possible because i got the last coke. None of which i'm directly(first hand) responcible for. of course if i build a time machine, im not worrying about a coke lol.


Now as far as the "Opposite" is concerned, the mirror universe was created when a choice was made. Up to that point they were the same after that point they started to unfold differently. But the root is still the same. another example, although without the temporal implications, would be when kirk was split into two during a transporter beam in. all his bad side was beamed in seconds later. two parts of the same person later reunited.


and note that there are usaully multible definitions of any given word. You showed three for your example when there are actually 30.


now using one of yours, and i give you , this is losely, "Adverb: In a position facing a specified or implied subject: "she was sitting opposite". Remove the other subject in the definition. If she is sitting leaning one way the she moves to where she is lean the same degree in the other direction, she is opposite herself. or if she faces a mirror she sees her self opposite of what she really is. But still the same person. Quantum physics may be added to the Mirror universe, but the principal is still the same.


Heres one you didnt mention "Something inverted in sequence or character or effect" That discribes mirror Kirk. he was created from Prime kirk to choose another path opposite Prime Kirk. The base is the same.


As far as the mirror universe itself, well back to the coin. both universes are like the coin, every time you flip it over you got the other one. Not to drag "Fringe" in it, but it does a better job of describing the association of a mirror universe. And to get to the good part of quantum physic according to Fringe, If you destroy one the other will die also. They are woven together. They need each other to survive because according to the law of physics they are the same, they occupie the same space.


A mirror universe is not "another" universe, it is the opposite side of the same universe


Your statement - "Like I said, history as a force of nature, isint only going to care about the results, its going to care about every detail, everything would have to be exactly the same if it is a predestination paradox, nothing can deviate."
Thats where i derived you saying A P Paradox "Cares".


I never said that it was the exact same event. But it is the same P Paradox. it is predestined. To quote Nero himself: Dont tell me it didnt happen, it HAS happened". it still equals "5" and once again your use of the word "true" is miss leading. There is no grey area with a paradox. It either is or it isnt.


Well my friend, you argue that Nero himself is responcible for all the changes in the Nu timeline. you cant have it both ways. By your own arguments, Spock has to be Responcible for everything, all of the changes to the NU timeline are because of Spock, not Nero, by the logic of your own arguments that is. According to your arguments you said that "Nero was respobcible for all the changes in the Nu timeline". well that just cant be because Spock is responcible for all of Neros actions once he entered the past. Spock is the reason they are there. He alone choose to detinate the Red Matter. He is souly responcible for everything that happens from that point on, by your arguments of course, that has to be the case. so all this debate about Nero is a mute point because it's all Spocks fault. lol


 


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stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 10 2011, 10:33 am

Fault follows the bullet, if you fire a gun into the air, with no intent on hurting anyone, and that bullet hits and kills a skydiver, or a person on a roof, of hits someone when it returns to the ground, it would be your fault that person died.Now, I'm sure some would argue it was an accedent, and that you didnt "legally" commit murder, but if not for your actions that person would be alive, so you are responsible for what happen.

Nero's case is no different in that regard, in trying and succeeding in changing history once, he's ultimately responsible for every other change that "may" happen.
And yes,If that accident wasnt originally part of history, you would ultimately hold responsibility for that accident because with out you, that guy wouldnt have had a coke can to trow out. Granted, you could argue that he might be the type to trow some other can out, but that would be something we would never know.

Just look at the TOS episode "City on the edge of forever"....McCoy goes back and time and prevents the death of Edith Keller.That action resulted in a world that didnt see the end of WW2, and ultimately no starfleet as we knew it.Bones was [first hand] only responsible for the first change, but his actions lead to a different world history with many different changes [second/thousands hand] which are all the result of Mccoys actions............so hes ultimately responsible for all of them, first hand or what ever doesnt matter.

I havent and never refused to see anything, I just see them for what they really represent.None of the so called "Inconsistencies" posted here have amount to "in narrative" inconsistencies.What they are is examples of bad story tellong, bad film making, but they dont present issues with the story fitting together.

We dont know exactly how the Mirror universe was created, but I accept your theroy as the leading possibility,But your "root" and "transporter twin" examples arent on point because what ever choise created the mirror universe and its counterparts happen well before Kirk and his crew were even born.According to what we learned in the "ENTERPRISE" mirror universe episodes, some version of the Terran empire existed as far back as the 1950's, IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY.so that would mean that what ever choise that created that universe was made back then, the split happened, and both universes continued on different paths ever since.So, that disproves the idea that mirror Kirk. was created from a choise Prime kirk made.

And yes, I showed only 3 definitions, because they were the ones on point with the context of the conversation we were having.And even the example you just tried to make doesnt help your case.Even if she is "she was sitting opposite" from one moment to the next, she is still 1 object, one combined form.Now while I personally subscribe to your "coin analogy", that isint the way its been depicted in Trek..........and thats what were talking about here. In trek,A mirror universe is indeed an "another" universe, just 1 of many.

And again, your argument about the Pparadox just doesnt maske sense.It seems your implying that the result is more important to "history" then what lead to that result.And I dont see why you would think that.If the original event was "predestined" then that same event must happen again, the exact same way because then every element in the event must also be "predestined".That means even Kirks birth was "predestined".

And I never said That Spock wasnt the ultimate cause for all the events, he made the whole thing possible but "Spock solely responsible"???.....think about that for a minute, do we blame the guy that invented the automobile for every death in a car accident?If were going to blame Spock for everything then we might as well blame the guys that invented red matter, or the delivery system, the guys that built the jellyfish or the one thast designed it...........or invented space travel to beging with, where does it stop?

To me, it stops at intent, what one chooses to do with what has been "invented".I dont "BLAME" Spock because he had no intent to do any harm.As a mater of fact he enabled what happened by trying to help others.Nero on the other hand intended to do as much harm as he possibly could.


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