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stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 05 2011, 2:22 pm

But your river seems to be deprived of any fish..........Seems you can't see the forest for the trees.Your focused on the details of how Nero effeced the imidiate era he arived (the Trees), and not seeing the Big Picture of how he could have effected other points in history (the Forest).


Which seems a bit odd since you cited the Garry 7 event, and that event is one of the examples of how Nero could have effects history before he arrived...........Fine, I'll spell it out, a Predestination paradox is best described as "A leads to B leads to C leads to A,".


"A" = the events in 1968 , the crew of the Enterprise, who had traveled back in time from "B" the year 2268" to  research, how earth survived trew the nuclear threat on the 1960's.Meating and interacting with a Gary 7, who was on a mission to "C" sabotage nucler test in that era which turned out the crew of the Enterprise was, in fact, always a part of this series of events that they were there to research from the start......which = a return to "A".


Can you now see how Nero's actions can effect a change in this hisorical event?The events as they happen, accoured with The James T Kirk or the prime timeline, with the crew of the Enterprise from the prime timeline.


Now according to the theroy of time travel/change most offten presented in Trek stories [althou not exaclty consistently depicted] , when someone/thing travels back in time and effects a significant change in history the previose timeline and everything that stems from it are wipped out.That mean that Prime Kirk and his crew no longer exsist..........so how could he be part of the Gary 7 predestination Paradox?


As a result of Nero's actions, the James T Kirk and his crew, of the prime timeline never were part of the events in the 1960's.So Nero changed the history of the 1960's.......265 years before he ever arrived in the past.And even if Nu Kirk and his crew follow in their prime universe counterparts footsteps and have a similar experance history is still changed because now it will take place with NU Kirk and the NU universe versions of the crew.


The same argument can be applied to just about any example said to be a predestination paradox.Like the TNG episodes "Times Arrow".Which shows us a predestination paradox, We see in the "Prime Universe year 2368" Data's head is found in a cavern on earth,not opened or visited by anyone since the late 1800's.Data later travels to the year 1893.As a result of events,he is trapped trapped in a cavern and had his body separated from his head.His body returns to his own time but his head remains in the past to be discovered in 2368 as we saw in the start of this episode....leading the crew of the Enterprise to mount an investigation. This investigation led to the very time travel event which transported Data back in time in the first place, thereby completing the time loop.


As with the other example, according to the theroy of time travel/change most offten presented in Trek stories [althou not exaclty consistently depected] , when someone/thing travels back in time and effects a significant change in history the previose timeline and everything that stems from it are wipped out.That mean that Prime Universe Data and all the crew of the Enterprise D no longer exsist...........so how could Data's head be trapped in a carven on earth since the late 1800's.


And again, even IF the Nu Universe spawns counterparts of the TNG era characters history is still changed because now history will contain the NU UNIVERSE counterparts as part of those events......IF the happen at all.


Now keep in mind, all this only applies if you believe that time change wipes out the known histories.


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Captain Sam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 151

Report this Dec. 05 2011, 4:52 pm

Oh my friend... the wonderful thing about life is opinions... From my POV you pond only has one fish, and thats all you see. which is fine if thats the way you like it. I however have tons of fish and thats the way i like it. I see the water, fish. forrest and the trees, always have


Like our POV on the P Paradox. you see only one defintion or type, when there are several.


I am not focused on what Nero did in the imediate era. Thats a given. the Nu Enterprise has to go back on the mission to Gary 7. Reason being is Regardless of Nero, Gary 7 went on his mission and the missle expolded at a certain point. That would have been writen in history before Nero showed up. Even before the Federation. Without TOS Kirk interviening, it would have exploded elsewhere, but thats not what was written in history before the 2200's even came about. So in order fo history to unfold the way it was written. Nu kirk must do the same. It's the P Paradox that dictates that. No way around it.


You do make a valid point about it being the "nu" crew that goes back in to time. and that can be realted to Nero, but then we have to get into the whole "Nu" crew or "same" crew issue which gives me a headache lol. Personlly i think its the Same crew, there lives just unfolded diferently. With that being my opnion on the crew thingy... then regaurdless of Neros actions they still go back on the gary 7 mission. So he in fact, didnt affect that mission at all.


I personally don't buy into the whole "wipe out" theory. For one thing you said "significant" change, but in order for that theory to pan out it has to be any change no mater how insignificant it might be will ablitterate life as we know it. I beleive if a change is made, big or small, that certain events may play out differently but the unaffected things will still be the same. Meaning what ever change(s) are made will create a ripple effect flowing from that point forward through time only effecting the parts of the prime timeline that it has access to.


 


Im close the top in StarTrek.com's Artful Explorations Most popular gallery. Go check it out and hit the little like button for me on StarTrek.com so the Enterprise can soar to the top ;) http://startrek.com/gallery_slide/artful-explorations?image_id=2713

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 05 2011, 5:51 pm

My friend... the real thing is that this debate was not about personal opinions but about what is "POSSIBLE" or what "COULD" be, based on how things have been described and depicted in Trek stories. [You'll note that I never said Nero IN FACT effected history before he arrived] So, while you say you have always seen the water, fish, forrest and the trees, you apparently never saw them for what they are an can become.


Like what you call  "our POV on the P Paradox" issue..........I dont deny different defintions, but what I posted is what was depicted, so you can see it any way you like, but its not consitent with how it was described in the show.

Saying they are the "Same crew" is an idealized way to look at it, and the thought of it gives me a headache as well...........but what make a person a person?Its the events in their lives, their experiences.If their lives just unfolded differently then they are different people.Not unlike how mirror Kirk and Prime Kirk are.Or how Prime Worf was different from all the Worfs he replaced in the episode Parallels.


Even if Nu kirk/Enterprise do the same in the Gary 7 event, history is changed. The P Paradox dictates that the event accrues the same way it originally did...with the exact same participants.. Theres no way around it.With that being a factor of how it was depicted on screen, Neros actions do have the cappsity to affect the Garry 7 event..If the prime universe is gone, then the events as the happened can not take place.


I also dont accept the "wipe out" theory, mainly because it hasnt always been depicted consistenantly trew out the franchise.Some times things/people fade out, other times they dont.For the "wipe out" to be law it would need to be the universal result to happen in every case, and the fact is that its just not.


And your also right about 1 thing, any change is change, no matter the scope.But even a "ripple effect" can effect points in history that are well before the ripple point.I'll give you a possible made up example.


Its possible, maybe even likely, that due to Nero's actions Tovok may never be born.The destruction of Vulcan and the killing of so many of its people could result in his parents being dead, never mating or just having different children.


Then how could he be on Voyager when it went back in time to the 1990's?


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Captain Sam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 151

Report this Dec. 05 2011, 9:28 pm

Well seeing how time travel and paradoxes are just thoery then it is all about opinion according to who you are debateing with! The Trek Stories left alot up for grabs in this catagory as you said "[althou not exaclty consistently depicted] ". I have seen them for what they are, but my friend a fish can only become a bigger fish and a tree will only grow taller or wider. You would suggest that they could do otherwise.


You say my POV was not consistant with what what depicted in the show but yet i gave proof from the shows of three different types of P Paradoxes. you just only want to see your one fish turn into a bird. lol


as far as the crew, I choose to idealize them in the way that they are the same people, but with there lives unfolding differently they are different in there charactoristics and personallities. After are we are all products of our invironments.


The Gary 7 incident does not have to unfold the exact same way it did before. The paradox does not dictate that at all. only the recorded history of it has to be exact. most parts of any incidents are not recorded so with different personallities of the crew, things can be done differently. There are many different ways to do most things and still achieve the same end result. There is more then one way to clean a fish and still have dinner


You are correct about Tovok. all his ancestors would have had to survived in order for him to be on Voyager as unlikley as that seems. So i guess the ripple effect would have to "fade him out" . Shame, I liked Tovok lol


 


 

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 06 2011, 12:44 am

 


Well I did say this possibility was only valid if one believes the offten seen [but not always consistent] thoery on time travel/change seen thru out trek, so theres no right or wrong in this issue.And I "WOULD" suggest that they could do otherwise, because a fish can starve and shrink, a tree can wither and die, there is nothing that cant eventually change


And I did show you with the Tuvok case how it COULD be possible how Nero could have effected changes in history well before he arrived in the 2230's.I only say POV was not consistant with the depiction because the show used different descriptions for these events, I'm not saying your wrong.


If the lives of the crew unfolded differently then they are different people.If they have different characteristics then they are different people.If they are different in their personallities then they are different people.


If we are all products of our inviroments, then different inviroments will produce different people.


Sure there are many different ways to do things and still achieve the same end result...but when you change how you do things you have made a change in the history of that result.How the result is achived is as important as the result itself.If the Gary 7 event is trully a predestination paradox then it requires everything be exactly the same everytime it happens.


For it to be a predestination paradox the Gary 7 incident does INDEED have to unfold the exact same way it did before with all the exact same factors.The paradox does not care whats recorded on paper, but for the incedent to have unfolded once as a predestined event, then it most continue to happen the exact same way with the exact same partisepents with out deviation.


Tovok is a fav of mine as well.


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Captain Sam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 151

Report this Dec. 06 2011, 6:25 am

true the fish and the tree can kick the bucket.... lol butthat is a end result premature or not. and i agree with you they need cosistancy in there theories. the powers that be need o pay more attention.


Ill agree with you on how Nero... on a second hand basis affected the 2230. But its more of a causality effect. he affected who went back... he didnt affect the events themselves... but ill give ya the technicality lol


AS far as the crew.. i stilkl believe they are the same people... The root of who they are is the same. if you change a few of the significant events in my life then i may not live where i do now. i may be happier or angrier in general. i may be poorier or richer. My beliefs may be altered, but the root of who i am, what makes me, me is still the intact. Kirk despite not haveing his father is still feet first gungho, Spock is still logical while struggling with and relying on his human side, MaCoy is still affriad of the transporter. oh im getting a headache, lol The root of who they are is still the same.


wwere still going to have to agree to disagree on the P Paradox because things dont have to happen exactly the same every time as long as the end result is the same. For instance, the Enterprise D was stuck in there loop. How many timelines did they go through before they got out of it. How many Timelines, all with different events and still the same result, the destruction of the Ent D. A paradox itself is a set of events that cant possibly happen, yet do. you cant have a chicken without and egg or visa versa, yet i have some tasty chicken last night lol. if the chicken came first i still enjoyed dinner. If the egg came first i still enjoyed dinner. How a paradox completes itself is less important then the fact that it does complete itself. I like my chicken lol.


 

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 06 2011, 7:09 am

Even if its a second hand affect,  it was caused by the first hand, as far as history is concerned, everything is connected.

AS far as the crew.. even if they are the same at the "root" they are still different people, because just like a tree, people change from the time the root was planted till the time its grown.Mirror Spock Spock is still logical, Mirror O'Brien just as adept with technology, are either of them the same person as their Prime universe counterparts???

And we can agree to disagree on the P Paradox if you like, but I dont see how you can explain that issue to me logically.History or Time as a force of nature isint going to only care about the results of an event.The details of the event are just as important as the result.Try to look at it like a mathematician would look at a math equation.

A] 2+3=5 [prime universe]
B] 1+4=5 [nu universe]

2 different equations that both have the same results, but how that result came about differes...so they are 2 different equations.The same can be said for the Gary 7 event

A= the first way it unfolded with the Prime universe players
B=how the event will/might unfold with the NU universe players

No matter how you cut it, history will be changed because the details of the lives of those involved in the event have changed.They might be very minor changes, but any change is change.

The Enterprise D broke that loop of events,it broke with the course events that the paradox set in motion. Kirk's crew lived out their loop to its completion.


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guillermo.mejía

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2852

Report this Dec. 06 2011, 9:19 am

Heavy stuff... *goes to the supermarket to buy some fish instead*


I understand, and begrudgently have to agree with stovokor, though he seems to enjoy opening up Pandora's boxes every few days or so.


The Gary 7 was a good example, but I'll use a clearer, or different one. Take Star Trek 4. To save the planet the crew have to go back to get some whales,a nd they are able because cirunstances allowed them to be off planet when the probe came. This can play out in many many ways, but lets, for the sake of the example, say that new Kirk and company are still in a position to travle back in time. Most basic assumption is that because these are different people due to their different experiances, they'll react differently.


- Spock goes with Uhura rather than Kirk and fail to befriend Gillian Taylor. If she was destined to be brought to the 23rd Century, she could or could not have an Edith effect on history


- Chekov goes with Kirk, shit gets crazier and more contamination to the timeline ensues, rather than irradiated equipment being left behind


- Instead of a Klingon ship, they could have the Enterprise, causing a Tommorow-Is-Yesterday deal


- They just might fail.


These are all maybes but it validates stovokor when he says that Nero's apperance could affect 1986, or before. Again, Pandora's box.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 06 2011, 12:06 pm

I love Pandora's box.

guillermo.mejía

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2852

Report this Dec. 06 2011, 12:29 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Dec. 06 2011, 12:06 pm

>

>I love Pandora's box.

>
Indeed you do.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

Captain Caloocan

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 14

Report this Dec. 06 2011, 10:11 pm

In every single series, maybe with the exception of the animated series, there has always been a mention of the timeline needing to be corrected. It has always been corrected by the people involved with the situation or by time travel cops. The latest movie doesn't really count because ultimately the timeline will be corrected.


I feel fine.

guillermo.mejía

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2852

Report this Dec. 07 2011, 5:19 am

Quote: Captain Caloocan @ Dec. 06 2011, 10:11 pm

>

>In every single series, maybe with the exception of the animated series, there has always been a mention of the timeline needing to be corrected. It has always been corrected by the people involved with the situation or by time travel cops. The latest movie doesn't really count because ultimately the timeline will be corrected.

>
What do you mean that the timeline will ultimately be corrected? Is that Spock's little story about the universe trying to mend itself as an explanation for all the coincidences? Because that's not what Spock meant in the novelization.


And FYI, it also happens in TAS. There's a little episode called Yesteryear basically about having to go back and fix the timeline.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

Captain Sam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 151

Report this Dec. 07 2011, 8:29 am

@ Stovkor


 


Yes, as far as history is concerned everything is connected. But that doesnt negate the fact that "Second hand" affected that players, therefore indirectly affecting history at that point. "First hand" was the palyers them selves, and only them that affect history directly.


and you prove my point by bringing up the Mirror Universe. The Mirror crew are the same people. As discused earlier, when someone makes a descions then the same universe is, for lack of a better word, split. Another one of that person, identical in every way up to that point, is created to choose the other option, the two universes occupied the same space just unfolding differenly. thats why it is called a mirror universe and not just another universe. So they, even more so, are the same person. So anyway you look at it Nu crew and TOS Crew are the same crew reguardless of there attributes as are TOS crew and Mirror crew.


and i think you proved my point on the Gary 7 issue also. Bottom line is, in order for the Nu crew to complete the Gary 7 paradox the answer has to be "5"(from your example). Im not saying the history wont be changed by minnor desions along the way. "a" or "b" it doesnt matter, "5" is all thats needed for the paradox to complete itself.


The Enterprise D's Crew broke the Paradox. The Paradox it self set nothing in motion to help them, had nothing to do with it. The Paradox was the Enterprise Exploded and was sent backwards through a rift in time repeating the events that led up to the explosion in the first place. The crew managed to find a way out of tat themselves.


 

Captain Sam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 151

Report this Dec. 07 2011, 9:37 am

As i take tylonal for the NU crew Headache lol


@ guillermo.mejía


I agree that Neros apperance could have time reaching repercussions. Im just saying the those effects are second hand as he himself doesnt effect events that he is not physically appart of.


 


I believe what Captain Caloocan is refering to is the Timeship Relativity from Voyager. According to that reference, the Relativity will show up at any time and stop Nero and Spock from from being pulled into the black hole to start with. There fore the Kelvin will just find empty space and never incounter the Narada to start with. TOS lives ! lol


 

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 07 2011, 12:54 pm

Quote: Captain Caloocan @ Dec. 06 2011, 10:11 pm

>

>In every single series, maybe with the exception of the animated series, there has always been a mention of the timeline needing to be corrected. It has always been corrected by the people involved with the situation or by time travel cops. The latest movie doesn't really count because ultimately the timeline will be corrected.

>


the problem is they never REALLY corrected anything in those cases.First Contact,Yesterdays Enterprise,Past Tence,City on the ege of forever.........


in each of these cases they NEVER corrected the timeline to what it was, what they did was create a reality that was "CLOSE ENOUGH", to what they remembered.


 


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