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guillermo.mejía

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Report this Nov. 30 2011, 6:52 am

At this point...I feel I must ask Stovokor..........what WOULD you define as an inconsistency? Not Webster's dictionary definition, but an example.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

stovokor2000-A

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Report this Nov. 30 2011, 1:30 pm

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ Nov. 30 2011, 6:52 am

>At this point...I feel I must ask Stovokor..........what WOULD you define as an inconsistency? Not Webster's dictionary definition, but an example.

>


It depends on the context of the convesation.Which I think has been a bit confusing here.Some of the examples you pointed out I would call inconsitent film making/story telling.


But, the post I first replied to in this thread was on the subject of "in story inconsitencies", meaning from a in side point of view.


The post I replied to said [paraphased] "JJ's film did not successfully establish itself to be a spinoff of the original timeline, because as too many inconsistencies exist between the prime timeline and the past Nero's arrived".


That claim indicates what I call an "in story inconsistency", or a canon contradiction/violation.An example of that would be a 2 "in story" claims that contradicts each other.


For example lets say [totally made up] it was once said that Riker was an only child.But then in a different episode he talks about his little brother.


That would be asn example of an "in story inconsistency"...........and there are a lot of examples of that type of thing in trek.Like the one I mentioned earlier, Troi saying she never kissed Riker with a beard before............which she did at least once in an episode.Or in a TNG episode, Data says nothing in nature can move at warp speeds....and yet in Enterprise we learn of a natural forming storm that can travel at warp speeds.


That is what I would call a "in story inconsistency".


On the other hand, some Romulans have bumpy heads....some have smooth heads, and others put tatoos on their head.They never explained any of this.


Thast might be bad story telling, but its not a "in story inconsistency", its just an un-known.


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guillermo.mejía

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Report this Dec. 01 2011, 12:08 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Nov. 30 2011, 1:30 pm

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ Nov. 30 2011, 6:52 am

>

>At this point...I feel I must ask Stovokor..........what WOULD you define as an inconsistency? Not Webster's dictionary definition, but an example.

>

It depends on the context of the convesation.Which I think has been a bit confusing here.Some of the examples you pointed out I would call inconsitent film making/story telling.

But, the post I first replied to in this thread was on the subject of "in story inconsitencies", meaning from a in side point of view.

The post I replied to said [paraphased] "JJ's film did not successfully establish itself to be a spinoff of the original timeline, because as too many inconsistencies exist between the prime timeline and the past Nero's arrived".

That claim indicates what I call an "in story inconsistency", or a canon contradiction/violation.An example of that would be a 2 "in story" claims that contradicts each other.

For example lets say [totally made up] it was once said that Riker was an only child.But then in a different episode he talks about his little brother.

That would be asn example of an "in story inconsistency"...........and there are a lot of examples of that type of thing in trek.Like the one I mentioned earlier, Troi saying she never kissed Riker with a beard before............which she did at least once in an episode.Or in a TNG episode, Data says nothing in nature can move at warp speeds....and yet in Enterprise we learn of a natural forming storm that can travel at warp speeds.

That is what I would call a "in story inconsistency".

On the other hand, some Romulans have bumpy heads....some have smooth heads, and others put tatoos on their head.They never explained any of this.

Thast might be bad story telling, but its not a "in story inconsistency", its just an un-known.

That's actually very reasonable, and I can see your point of view.


In the end it all depends on what one is willing to accept as a tolerable change in JJ's version of Trek. I for example accept several changes such as: Klingons in trench coats, different academy uniforms, an Orion in Starfleet Academy, the iStore bride of the Enterprise, etc.


Now, there's other stuff that I just can't accept because of other elements, such as natural progression inthe in-canon world, for example: the windshield viewscrens, the apparent size of the new Enterprise (making it twice as large as the original), conviniently having another Delta Vega just as an homage, etc. It's things that could be accepted because it's a new reality and 'all is permited' but, if all ships you EVER see in Starfleet on the screen have viewscreens, why do we suddenly ahve windows? Or why call the bloody planet Delta Vega when you know another planet has that designation? I can just imagine it....


Random Captain: "Navigator, set course for Delta Vega."


Random Navigator: "Which one, sir?"


Don't feel obligated to reply back to my little rant here. It's just therapy for me at this point.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 01 2011, 8:44 pm

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ Dec. 01 2011, 12:08 pm

>That's actually very reasonable, and I can see your point of view.

>In the end it all depends on what one is willing to accept as a tolerable change in JJ's version of Trek. I for example accept several changes such as: Klingons in trench coats, different academy uniforms, an Orion in Starfleet Academy, the iStore bride of the Enterprise, etc.

>Now, there's other stuff that I just can't accept because of other elements, such as natural progression inthe in-canon world, for example: the windshield viewscrens, the apparent size of the new Enterprise (making it twice as large as the original), conviniently having another Delta Vega just as an homage, etc. It's things that could be accepted because it's a new reality and 'all is permited' but, if all ships you EVER see in Starfleet on the screen have viewscreens, why do we suddenly ahve windows? Or why call the bloody planet Delta Vega when you know another planet has that designation? I can just imagine it....

>Random Captain: "Navigator, set course for Delta Vega."

>Random Navigator: "Which one, sir?"

id="yui_3_2_0_13_132280012951972">Don't feel obligated to reply back to my little rant here. It's just therapy for me at this point.
That's very reasonable as well, and I'm not suggesting that you need to "shut up and like" all the changes made, heck, I'm not a fan of some of them either.


What I'm arguing against is the idea and the claims that the perceived visual inconsistencies that some fans have pointed out , amount to and constitute "SOLID IN STORY INCONSISTENCIES". For example:s the size and look of the Kelvin, how old Pike looked ect.


Pikes age was never given in the film, how anyone or any thing looks is a mater of perception, so unless they give us Pikes age, or we hear the the Kelvin can out preform better ships and hit warp 20 then we dont have an "In story inconsistency".


On to the windshield viewscrens & larger size of JJ's Enterprise, I dont like these things very much either..............but they dont represent "in story inconsistencies" because they can be explained by Neros actions leading to the changes.Sure its convinent, but its quite possible, we have seen bigger changes do to time being altered.


I dont mind haveing an another Delta Vega in the universe, but I understand those that dont like it.But again, its not an example of an "in story inconstancy" because there is at least 1 other example in the Trek universe of 2 locations with the same name.Not to mention that the planet might have been "re-named" in the new timeline for some unknown reason which results from Nero's actions.


So, how can 2 Delta Vegas be such a big deal? [If you dont know the 2 locals that share a name just ask]


As to the idea of the natural progression of events in the" in-canon world", such a concept was nullified by the sudden arrival ands subsequent actions of a time traveler from almost 150 years in the future.You really cant say that changes, large and small, to how things originally progressed arent expected.


Bottom line, no-one has to like or accept any or all the changes...but dont take that dislike for what was done and characterize it as something its not.Maybe the new bridge sucks, sure it looks like nothing seen before, but it can be explained by changes in history, so its not an in story inconsitency.It just sucks.


 


 


 


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guillermo.mejía

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Report this Dec. 02 2011, 7:18 am

I'm still not sure I buy the Romulan knowledge deal as anything other than an inconsistency, but that's my personal beleieve and I've made my point on that argument enough for now.


On most other points, I see your POV better now, in that JJ's convinient alternate reality plot device gives him 'carte blanc' to do whatever he feels like, agree with it or not. And I actually ahe to admire his solution...as it doe just that and gives him virtually free range to change whatever he pleases. One think that can't be explained by Nero is the Kelvin though. You can go ahead and say it's some fancy experiment like the Excelsior, but Nero didn't make that ship so different from established TOS looks, JJ did. 


I could argue Pike's age, the same way that First contact blatently altered Zefram Cochran's age, but Pike's age was already a mess before 2009. We see him around Kirk's age (in appereance at least) in The Cage and The Managerie. But then Commodore Mendez goes off and ruins it by saying that he and Kirk are 'roughly the same age' which leads me to assume that it's a mistake in the script, unless longer lifespans lead people to look at relative age diffrently in the 23rd century. Still, +10 years difference sounds like stretching the 'roughly same age' comment. And the Bruce Greenwood comes along, does a great tribute to the Pike role, but is now a mentor figure to Kirk, old enough to be his father.


So there's really a discrepancy with Pike due to the Commodore's statement in the Menagerie, which I dunno how you could justify, other than JJ made a concious decision to to cast an older looking actor in a  younger role, much like Connery and Moore in their final films as James Bond. Either way, Greenwood was too good in the role for me to care. 


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 02 2011, 2:06 pm

Actually, there is a way to use Nero to xplain the Kelvin and to say he made changes to history long before he arrived, but thats a different debate I'll make later if you like.

But the Kelvin doesnt need explaing, we never saw ships from that era and how anything "LOOKS" is a mater or personal perception.You think it "looks" wrong, I think it "looks" fine, neither of us is wrong.We just see it differently.


I never gave Mendez comment much importance, it was a vague statement which, in some people, depends on their frame of mind.I once had a very old boss say a co-worker and I were relivtively the same age.......when he knew full well that we had a almost 20 year difference.Comments like the one made by Mende z breake down to the indivisuals frame of mind and the subject matter.They shouldnt be taken literaly.


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guillermo.mejía

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POSTS: 2852

Report this Dec. 02 2011, 11:29 pm

Yes...I've heard the debate about Nero going back in time before the Kelvin events. Don't like the theory. Without actually debating what it is, it makes it seem that somehow JJ had one movie ready to make but only produced half of it.


Ehhhh, that theory upsets me so much I simply dismiss it. Must people who prescribe to it are Long Trek fans far more stubborn than myself and unwilling to accept any visual discrepancies or plot holes in the 2009 film.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 03 2011, 6:53 pm

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ Dec. 02 2011, 11:29 pm

>Yes...I've heard the debate about Nero going back in time before the Kelvin events. Don't like the theory. Without actually debating what it is, it makes it seem that somehow JJ had one movie ready to make but only produced half of it.

>Ehhhh, that theory upsets me so much I simply dismiss it. Must people who prescribe to it are Long Trek fans far more stubborn than myself and unwilling to accept any visual discrepancies or plot holes in the 2009 film.

>


oh, I'm not claiming Nero went back in time before the events we saw on film, I'm saying that the events he created with the Kelvin could have caused changes to history well before he even arrived.


In other words, Nero's arrivel and actions in the 2250's could have caused changes in the timeline/history as far back as the 1890's.


 


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Captain Sam

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Report this Dec. 04 2011, 5:00 pm

Are you serious right now!.... Nobody can effect history before they show up in it.... thats a no brainer...


 


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stovokor2000-A

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Report this Dec. 04 2011, 7:05 pm

Quote: Captain Sam @ Dec. 04 2011, 5:00 pm

>

>Are you serious right now!.... Nobody can effect history before they show up in it.... thats a no brainer...

>


Yes, I am serious.And if you try thinking outside the box, think of the biggerr bicture, you can see how Nero could have effected a change in history well before he arrived in the past/2230's.


And when I say "think of the bigger picture" try to see Trek as a "whole" and not just as single stories.


 


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Captain Sam

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Report this Dec. 04 2011, 8:47 pm

it doesnt matter.. outside the circle, box, rectangle... big, small or fill in the blank picture.... not possible. I have as good of and imagination as anybody and willing to stretch things as much as the next if thats the only way. But you CANNOT effect history that you dont interact with...


 

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 04 2011, 9:51 pm

Quote: Captain Sam @ Dec. 04 2011, 8:47 pm

>it doesnt matter.. outside the circle, box, rectangle... big, small or fill in the blank picture.... not possible. I have as good of and imagination as anybody and willing to stretch things as much as the next if thats the only way. But you CANNOT effect history that you dont interact with...


then I would say your imagination is far more limited then you seem to think.


No offence intended.


Instead of just oot righting giving you a "fish to eat, I'm going to try to teach you to fish", in other words I'm going to try to show you how Nero could have effected changes in history well before he arrived in the 2230's.


Ok, answer this question..........what came first, the chicken or the egg?, or Better yet, are you familur with the idea of a Predestination paradox and possible examples of the phenomenon in the different Trek series?



 


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Captain Sam

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Report this Dec. 05 2011, 7:35 am

I am not offended at the least


its seems to me that it would be hard for you to teach "me to fish" if you are using a cardboard box to catch them in.


no offense intended.


My imagination is not limited at all... but even in flights of fantasy some things just arent possible...


The closest thing to someone affecting history before they are in it, is when your parents are planning... or supprised, by your arrival.


And you really cant be serious, a Predestination paradox aka Causality Loop just simply wasnt the case with Nero. Even if it was, he would still be in te loop there fore affecting what ever changes there were. If he was not in the loop he could not affect anything.


 


 

stovokor2000-A

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Report this Dec. 05 2011, 11:40 am

If you really think I was trying to say Nero's event is a predestination paradox, then the one here cardboard box to fish is you my friend, again no insult intended.And again, it does seem that either your imagination is limited or your memory/knowlidge about the Trek series is limited.


I am not claiming Nero's case IS a Predestination paradox, In fact my claim is the oppisite, but it is indeed possible for Nero's time travel event to have effected history well before he arrived in the 2230's.


BTW, a Causality Loop, in TREK stories, is described a bit differently then a predestination paradox.A causality loop is described as a type of phenomenon whereby a specific moment in time repeats itself continually inside an independent fragment of time.


A predestination paradox, is described as a phenomenon in which an event of time travel becomes part of events which have already occurred, and can even lead to the initial event of time travel in the first place.


So, would you rather I just lay out my case or would you like for me to lead you to the river?


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Captain Sam

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Report this Dec. 05 2011, 1:35 pm

didnt say you were saying the Nero was a P Pardox. And my imagination is fine and so is my knowledge of Trek...


I can imagine pink elephants with wings flying across the sky... but as of now... its imposssible they dont exsist, and theres nothing i can do or anyone else with out a time machine, to make it happen in the here and now. Now if someon were to have a time machine, they could go back and make genetic alterations then go back to the furture with out ever stopping in my time. if they do that, then i can walk to my window and indeed see flying pink elephants. the point is, someone has to intereact with the past to change the past. you nor anyone else can affect history without being present in it in some way, shape or form.


Now you said "Nero's time travel event". now that could effect history. if Spock and Nero go in the same event and come out in different time periods then that would suggest that the "out" end is fragmented or jumping around and could show up in space before the kelvin. However a Federation Ship or any other would have to see it and furthermore be able to scan the other fragments threw it in order to get a glimps of Spock, Nero or the Kelvin. Highly unlikely but Thesable. But thats still not Nero affecting the past... thats a page in the history book affecting there history. Also if that were the case then the Kelvin would have known about the evet and what the Narada was.


If some one tells me that some one else said they are coming to see me tomarrow and i decide to prepare for there visit... did the person that came to see me affect the past... no they did not. if they had called me then they would have, but they didnt someone else did, so they are not responcible more my preperations. Even though they were the reason for the preperations, the person that told me is the one responcible. So even if some one were to find out the Nero was going to show up, theres still no way he directly affeted history. the person that found out is the one who affected it.


 


A causality loop is a form of a P Pardox as is a casual loop and closed loop


The Enterprise D repeatedly going throught a loop that caused there destruction until the crew found a way to prevent it is a Causality Loop. The TOS Enterprise going back in time to interact with Gary 7 and exploded the warhead would be a Closed Loop. I Casual Loop would be & of Nine going back to stop the Captain of the Relativity from desroying the USS Voyager.


My friend i know where the river is and my river is full of water not sand.


 


 


 

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