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Captain Sam

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POSTS: 151

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 2:28 pm

I agre with Russell


i'm all for a good debate, but not when the opposition is closed off, to the point that they wouldnt jump out from in front of a bus even when there told it's gonna hurt..


=======


on the rest...


Im willing to accept the reboot. I think in general it served it's purpose well. Actually when i apply the "leap of fiath" it's one of my favorites. I just would have liked to have seen a lot less of the inconsistancies.


With the alternate timeline you just have to accept that things are different, but the degre was way overboard and a ton of small things that would have easly been fixed with out disrupting the new story if some one wasnt asleep at the wheel


Many differences of opinion. so many points of view... plain and simple... this is what we have now..


we can only hope that the powers that be, pay attention to general consenses and the the next, whether a series or movie, will satisfy our apprehension and fufil our needs.


 


As far as the delta, there was and episode where kirk identified a commodore as being from a certain ship from his insignia and interview from way back where GR was asked about the diference and he stated the insignia designated which ship the crew was from.


 


 


Im close the top in StarTrek.com's Artful Explorations Most popular gallery. Go check it out and hit the little like button for me on StarTrek.com so the Enterprise can soar to the top ;) http://startrek.com/gallery_slide/artful-explorations?image_id=2713

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 3:09 pm

Quote: Captain Sam @ Nov. 28 2011, 2:28 pm

>I agre with Russell

>i'm all for a good debate, but not when the opposition is closed off, to the point that they wouldnt jump out from in front of a bus even when there told it's gonna hurt..

>"As far as the delta, there was and episode where kirk identified a commodore as being from a certain ship from his insignia"

>"and interview from way back where GR was asked about the diference and he stated the insignia designated which ship the crew was from."


Again, no one here has provided any solid inconsitency.


As for the Delta...........Sorry, but that isint going to help your argumnent.What episode?What was the dialog"


Unless he looked at the ingignia and said "you must be from that ship because of that inginia".........then you got nothing but conjecture.


An interview, even with the creator...in not CANON.Only what is seen and said WITHIN the series is canon.


And in a canon episode we saw that crews other then the Enterprise wore the Delta.


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Captain Sam

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POSTS: 151

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 5:12 pm

are you serious lol man... please look out for that bus.


 

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 6:09 pm

are you serious???????/Really.


You argue that there are solid inconsitencies.......but what evidence of substance have you cited to back that up?


Nothing.


To back up your "DELTA ARGUMENT" you cite that there is an episode and dialog that backs your point.....but you failed to name the episode or provide a quote from the dialog.


Also, to help the same argument you cite a NON-CANON source.


To point out that "CHANCES ARE" the destruction of the Kelvin would have lead to no significant changes.But "CHANCES ARE" equal that it may have lead to many significant changes.


You also cite Checkov's age as an inconsistency, but we both know he's a different person created because of the changes in history.......so how is this an example of an inconsistency???


So I ask.......Is this all you got?


Is this all you can muster in a debate?If so you got nothing.


I'm not trying to sound rude or like a troll, but really, you havent provided anything of substance.


Wheres the Beef?


 


 


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Captain Sam

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POSTS: 151

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 6:31 pm

sorry you couldnt avoid the bus... have a great day


 


 

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 6:46 pm

So, your basicly admiting you cant back up your claims.


I guess I should expect any different, like I said, all I see is the same sonmg and dance, but nothing solid.


 


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Captain Sam

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POSTS: 151

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 6:49 pm

lol from what ive read everybody is telling you the same thing...but you wont listen to them when they have supplied tons of "SOLID" so your just stuck in your own little world im done bye hav a great day


 

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 6:59 pm

nothing they or you provided constitutes a SOLID inconsitency.All you have provided is perception issues [for example what something or someone looked like] or some completly wrong claims like that or the Delta or Pike being on the Kelvin.


all you have provided was, the Delts,Checkovs age,and that the destruction of 1 ship "might" not have changed things.


How is any of that "SOLID" when a change in history accounts for 2 of them and you were just flat wrong on the other?


if you or they have "TON"s of them then please post them.I welcome the chance to examin them.


 


 


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guillermo.mejía

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POSTS: 2852

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 7:19 pm

Stovokor, I admire your Klingon strength against all of our arguments. Kahless himself would be proud, and I'd treat you to some andorian ale to boot. Now, did you hear your explanation on how Starfleet may have known those were Romulans who attacked the Kelvin? That's not a leap of faith...that's a whole bridge of faith you got going on there! You could right a whole 100 page comic book on how that went down, and that's the problem I have the plot holes, aka, inconsistencies in the movie. When a fan can guess a solution toa  problem, and another fan can come up with another different, yet equally accepted solution to something completely ignore in the movie, that's an inconsistency, not a lack of imagination on the fan. Trust me, I could come up with several solutions, but the fact that I have to guess so openly is exactly the problem I am talking about.


Now...I am surprised the patch discussion took of so much. The way I've always understood it, and i belive it is suppose to be, is that in the TOS era, every ship has it's own patch. No exceptions apply, even the ones that are result of wardrobe errors. In the enemy within, when evil Kirk appears for the first time, the shirt he had on was missing it's patch because it was lost the day before in the cleaners or something, but that doesn't mean that canonically he didn't have it. Memory Alpha backs up the different patch claim:


"In the mid-23rd century, Starfleet continued the tradition of using unique patch emblems for different assignments, albeit placing them instead over the left breast. By 2278 this styling ceased, and Starfleet adopted the USS Enterprise's assignment patch as the standard emblem for all Starfleet personnel. Assignment patches thus fell into disuse, and Starfleet supplanted them with badges and eventually combadges."


Now, if JJ chose to ignore this and stick the Kelvin with a slightly different Delta, I have to argue against the norm and say that just maybe since we assume the Kelvin has been decommisioned/destroyed by the time Pike took command of the Enterprise in the Prime reality as well as in the Alternate Reality, the Enterprise could easily have inherited the patch, as unusual as that seems.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 8:16 pm

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ Nov. 28 2011, 7:19 pm

>Stovokor, I admire your Klingon strength against all of our arguments. Kahless himself would be proud, and I'd treat you to some andorian ale to boot. Now, did you hear your explanation on how Starfleet may have known those were Romulans who attacked the Kelvin? That's not a leap of faith...that's a whole bridge of faith you got going on there! You could right a whole 100 page comic book on how that went down, and that's the problem I have the plot holes, aka, inconsistencies in the movie. When a fan can guess a solution toa  problem, and another fan can come up with another different, yet equally accepted solution to something completely ignore in the movie, that's an inconsistency, not a lack of imagination on the fan. Trust me, I could come up with several solutions, but the fact that I have to guess so openly is exactly the problem I am talking about.

>Now...I am surprised the patch discussion took of so much. The way I've always understood it, and i belive it is suppose to be, is that in the TOS era, every ship has it's own patch. No exceptions apply, even the ones that are result of wardrobe errors. In the enemy within, when evil Kirk appears for the first time, the shirt he had on was missing it's patch because it was lost the day before in the cleaners or something, but that doesn't mean that canonically he didn't have it. Memory Alpha backs up the different patch claim:

>"In the mid-23rd century, Starfleet continued the tradition of using unique patch emblems for different assignments, albeit placing them instead over the left breast. By 2278 this styling ceased, and Starfleet adopted the USS Enterprise's assignment patch as the standard emblem for all Starfleet personnel. Assignment patches thus fell into disuse, and Starfleet supplanted them with badges and eventually combadges."

>Now, if JJ chose to ignore this and stick the Kelvin with a slightly different Delta, I have to argue against the norm and say that just maybe since we assume the Kelvin has been decommisioned/destroyed by the time Pike took command of the Enterprise in the Prime reality as well as in the Alternate Reality, the Enterprise could easily have inherited the patch, as unusual as that seems.


And I admire your ability to back up your points with a well thought argument, and thje ability to acknolidge when the other side has a point.And yes, I read my explanation on how Starfleet learned they were Romulans,but Sorry, I just dont see it that way.Sure, it may take a big story to adequately fill in the gap, but why is that a problem?Theres over 20 years to fill in anyway.


And its not like we dont already have plenty of similar issues and gaps in other trek stories, the romulan wars,the cardassin conflicts,the klingon federation wars.Bottom line, plot holes dont equal inconsistencies.Plot holes are examples of bad writings that can be corrected later in a future publication.Inconsistencies are mistakes or canon violation that can not be reconciled


 


When any aspect is ignore or forgotten in a film it is again bad writing/film making but it is not a story inconsistency, nor does it equate to a difference in the histories of the trek universe.And it is our right as fans to guess at solution not covered in the series.For years fans speculated as to the differences in how klingons looked.........the fact that some of that speculation differes from the official answer doesn't make that speculation wrong.Nor does the fact that the issue was ingnore in the series for so long make it an inconsistency.


 


And I'm sure that they intended for every ship to have its cown patch in the TOS era, but what they intended is irrelevant to what was done.It doesnt mater what a fan site like MA claims, canon is as seen on the series.Sure they have a right to speculate,but that doesnt mean that their speculation has any more merit then that done by you or me.Its a canon fact that we saw other crew members with the delta, some fans might choose to ignore it, and thats their right.But telling others that they are wrong for not ignoring it is wrong in itself.


 


If some choose to accept it as a sign that other crews use the delta, thats their right as well.And if we choose to accept TAS, there are more examples of the wide use of the delta,


Even your theroy about the delta holds water


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guillermo.mejía

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POSTS: 2852

Report this Nov. 29 2011, 6:26 am

Stubborn as a Klingon as well, also making Kahless proud.


I don't deny other Trek being less flawed than this one, never have. Based on canon screen evidence How can we know why Khan will never forget Chekov who had not been cast as of yet; or how the Enterprise can travel to the Galactic Barrier in Star Trek V in a relatively super short time span. I'd like to think I dissect them all equally and question them when necesary. Take the Kzin Wars from TAS for example. There is not a more questionable piece of Trek history than that. I hold that epside partly as reason for TAS' barely-canon status/limbo canon status.


Back to the matter at hand, usng your own quote: 'When any aspect is ignore or forgotten in a film it is again bad writing/film making but it is not a story inconsistency' First, I'm not arguing against fans filling in the missing gaps. I'd never do that since I myself fall pray to it. Now, you state that this movie has no inconsistancies that can't be explained logically. I feel that your basic premi is based on an error. Webster's Dictionary defines inconsistency as: NOT COMPATIBLE WITH ANOTHER FACT OR CLAIM. Now, let's take the Klingon example you introduced. Their apperance in TOS is one way, every other (minus Enterprise is another). I-world there was no explanation for this, again before Enterprise. This is an inconsistency. Ther look before did not match up with their look after. What I think you have been defending is that there was no inconsistency because it was a plot hole.


I have to disagree with your basic premise because, as stated, an inconsistency is when two facts aren't compatible. Whatever explanation is missing for the inconsistency...THAT is the plot hole. They aren't the same. And I bring up again my point of view is being brought from the fact that we have to take what is or is not presented on screen.


Moving to the Kelvin again, 1. Romulans didn't identify themselves at all, 2. the ship is nothing like any Romulan vessel, 3. after the timeskip, everyone seems to know who they are. The facts of the first scene are not compatible with the facts of the events above Vulcan. That is not negative, it is not a sign that the writters didn't have an idea there; it is a sign that they didn't put it in...it is inconsistent within the story we are presented. How Starfleet came to know this is a plot hole that anyone is welcome to fill in lack of info, but the inconsistency still remains, no matter how well you explanations are.


Finally, you said that we failed to present any inconsistencies because you cleared them up. No, you offered your interpretation of what could be placed in that plot hole, based on your extensive Trek knowledge, but you aren't getting rid of the inconsistency. I'm not arguing with you about how right or wrong your explanations for the missing stry elements are. I rather liked your defense of the Kelvin's look. I'd never lookd at it from that point of view. But still, inconsistencies are what they are, and it is up to the individual fan to handle each as they choose. You creat context for them, but you can't sell that to others like myself and tell us the inconsistencies went away.


P.S. I can't resist...I find that pasisng down an assignment patch from one ship to another once it is gone just fine. Now having two distinct crews or vessels with the same patch at the same time is just not acceptable. There's no logic to it. You can't just make up an excuse and say "Oh, he was transferring out" or something and assume you are correct. Sometimes the fan has to take a step back and say, okay, it was on screen but it has to be a mistake since this goes against the establish canon rules.


Okay, rant over....I promise not more long boring posts on this matter. Convinced you or not Stovokor, I enjoyed the jousting of ideas.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

Captain Sam

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POSTS: 151

Report this Nov. 29 2011, 8:58 am

@ Guillermo.mejia


I enjoyed your last two post... thats how you debat. not the pushy klingon way lol


on the Romulan part... when the kelvin encountered them, no one knew who they were, just a big ship of bullies, but the next time they came into play was when the message was recieved about them kicking the Klingons butts and then kirk brought them up on the Enterprise and by then some how everybody already knew they were romulans with no explination to us of how they new. But if you have seen the deleted scence, they state that the Klingons had captured the Narada some time ago and imprisoned the crew. So with those scence added it's only logic that after the Klingons captured them then the word would have gotton out some time ago about who they were.


 


Im close the top in StarTrek.com's Artful Explorations Most popular gallery. Go check it out and hit the little like button for me on StarTrek.com so the Enterprise can soar to the top ;) http://startrek.com/gallery_slide/artful-explorations?image_id=2713

guillermo.mejía

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POSTS: 2852

Report this Nov. 29 2011, 9:17 am

Quote: Captain Sam @ Nov. 29 2011, 8:58 am

>

>@ Guillermo.mejia

>I enjoyed your last two post... thats how you debat. not the pushy klingon way lol

>on the Romulan part... when the kelvin encountered them, no one knew who they were, just a big ship of bullies, but the next time they came into play was when the message was recieved about them kicking the Klingons butts and then kirk brought them up on the Enterprise and by then some how everybody already knew they were romulans with no explination to us of how they new. But if you have seen the deleted scence, they state that the Klingons had captured the Narada some time ago and imprisoned the crew. So with those scence added it's only logic that after the Klingons captured them then the word would have gotton out some time ago about who they were.

>
I'd be negligent if I didn't bring up the point you just raised.


If you take the deleted scenes were we learn that The Nerada was captured by Klingons after the Kelvin's big boom and the crew was imprisoned and tortured for 25 years...plus you use Uhera's dialogue from her dorm and the bridge that goes some thing like "A Klingon Prison Planet was attacked...a whole fleet was reported destroyed by Romulans" you have a completely different situation.


Klingons obviously know what Romulans are, so if they reported that the Romulans destroyed the fleet when escaping, and Uhura picks up on it, it explains how the bridge crew know Romulans did it.


Maybe, if we assume there was someone else working with Uhura that night who also heard that transmition and reported it to the higher ups.....THAT could explain how Starfleet knows. Seems iffy though since Pike, Captain of the Flagship had no clue about this, and Vulcan, founding member of the Federation, seemed to have no knowledge of such an important piece of info since they couldn't identify who was attacking them. Seems to me Uhura held on to that little tidbit...thereby indirectly causing the destruction of her lover's home....but I'd be doing the fan explanation thing Stovokor and I have been debating.


Funny how in one paragraph you almost destroyed my Romulan knowledge inconsistency argument Captain Sam. But rules are rules and deleted scenes don't count. If they did, we'd know that Spock and Saavik have a kid.


And thank you for the compliment, though I feel bad everytime I go off on a rant and post a wall of text.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

Matthias Russell

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POSTS: 7705

Report this Nov. 29 2011, 9:53 am

Another weakness of the movie to me was it really needed the Countdown and Nero comics.  After I read them, I appreciated the movie  more, but I still don't like it too much.  Batman: Arkham City did the same thing, if you didn't read the prequel comic, the story was confusing.  A movie (or game) shouldn't depend so much on an accompanying comic book.


 


I would have much preferred if they simply left Leonard Nimoy out and make the story not depend on an Alternate universe and time travel.  They should have gone with a straight up reboot like Galactica did. 


Kirk is kicked off the ship by Spock and accidently lands on a planet within running distance of Nimoy who saves his life. And OH YEAH, Scotty is near by.  WTF!?! Some big coincidences there.  I've head it explained the universe was trying to put things back together.  Nimoy Spock explained the friendship between Kirk and Spock needed to be established.  But, uh, Kirk never met his best buddies Spock and McCoy until he came aboard the Enterprise.  It wasn't time for that friendship yet. Spock, isn't it logical they weren't old enough and mature enough to have a friendship with each other yet?


And then of course, Chechov being 5 years older from a different sperm and ovum combo. Can't explain this one away. No way no how.


Treknoir

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POSTS: 1784

Report this Nov. 29 2011, 10:47 am

Quote: Matthias Russell @ Nov. 29 2011, 9:53 am

>

>Another weakness of the movie to me was it really needed the Countdown and Nero comics.  After I read them, I appreciated the movie  more, but I still don't like it too much.  Batman: Arkham City did the same thing, if you didn't read the prequel comic, the story was confusing.  A movie (or game) shouldn't depend so much on an accompanying comic book.


I have to agree even though I liked the movie. An opportunity was missed that I hope can be somewhat rectified in future releases on DVD or whatever. My issues differ from yours. The ages, ships, and super accelerated rank issues don't bother me at all. I wish a little more time fleshing out Kirk, Spock and Nero had taken place.


Kirk was a douche and the car chase and bar fight scenes didn't make him endearing at all. Spock's conflict about who he was and his relationship with his mom were half-@ssed. Winona Ryder's best scenes were cut and Spock's rage and grief would have been more poignant with them. The current cut just makes Spock look like a regretful d*ck who only cared about his mom when she was gone. And what the heck did Nero DO for 25 years??!!!!!! Cuz seriously, if I were a maniacal, genocidal docuhe, I would have destroyed the UFP, come back to wait for FUTURE Spock, took him to see the void where Vulcan USED to be, watch him cry like a baby, then offed him. Cuz that's how I roll (not that I'm a maniacal, genocidal douche)! Everyone isn't going to read the comics for background.


It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want. - Spock

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