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stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Nov. 27 2011, 8:48 pm

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ Nov. 27 2011, 8:30 pm

>I fully agree that we aren't forced to agree with each other, but half of your so called explanations are conjecture, with no real evidence.

>I could easily conter your explanation on Checkov's age and say: Their parents both served on the Kelvin; they survived the attack and felt a new rush for life and completed all their starfleet goals faster so they could start a family faster. Sounds dilly but there's no evidence to go against me from what we see in the movie, so I don't feel your crearive imagination explains adecuately these inconsistencies.

>There are still more things to address. For example, why are the late 2260's uniforms used in the mid 2250's? Again, you can say the Kelvin's destruction somehow changed this too, but that just because, again, silly. The destruction of one scout ship, or the appearance of one advance vessel could not make an entire fleet change from head to toe. Did Starfleet go nuts when they saw the first Federation vessel? Did they completely redesign their unifomrs when the Organians stopped a war? When the planet killer attacked, did Starfleet use it as reason enough to put 800 people on a scout ship? I don't think so.

>


Likewise, the claim of SOLID inconsistencies here are nothing but conjecture and perception issues, with no real evidence to back them up


Sure, you or anyone could easily conter my explanations, but neither of us can prove our cases to a 100% fact, so the real error here is in anyone claiming SOLID INCONSISTANCIES were there are none.


I'm not sure what you mean by "why are the late 2260's uniforms used in the mid 2250's?", Can you give me a link to what you mean?


But yes,Again, the destruction of the Kelvin could have lead to many changes.And yes, it could have lead an entire fleet change from head to toe.Just look at what the death of 1 woman lead to in TOS's "City on the edge of foever", or one mans death in DS9's "Past tence"


 


 


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stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Nov. 27 2011, 9:09 pm

"I can accept this wardrobe malfunction but the Delta was still not the emblem of Starfleet, certainly not stitched into the uniform pattern itself."


Call; it what you like,it proves that the crew of Enterprise wasnt the only starfleet crew to use the delta in the TOS era.


And again, the uniform design change could be the result of Neros actions.


"I understand this but I still don't buy it as being technologically feasible even in the future.  There was not enough time to change the ship design.  Furthermore, why was it built in Iowa and not San Fran?  Your side leaves much to be desired and is far from conclusive or even convincing."


You dont have to like it of buy it, but it is an effective answer to this issue.Changes in the design of this and other ships may have resulted in a need for a different location.Maybe Neros actions lead to greater hostilities with the Romulans or other worlds,so maybe Starfleet needed more more ship yards.


"What!?! Fail.  A different sperm during a different menstral cycle 5 years apart resulted in the same person?  This point is inarguable."


The only Fail here seems to be your imagination, who says they are the SAME PERSON, heck, every person in the JJ universe is a different person because they have had different lives.


Being a different sperm from a different menstral cycle only means that he is MORE different then most of the others.


But none of that is relevent....or do you find it difficult to believe that the Checkov family wanted to name their FIRST BORN child Pavel no mater what year he was born?


"Kelvin crew wasn't surprised or shocked at all at their appearance.  This is strange since the identity of Romulans wouldn't be uncovered until years later."


You might want to re-watch the film.
The Kelvins crew did indeed looked shocked and supprised when thew Romulan appared on screan.


I'll admit, it didnt seem like a strong enough reaction, but that doesnt constitute a inconsitancy.


 


 


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Captain Sam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 151

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 5:52 am

the changes in the "city on the edge of forever" a key moment in time with far reaching effects was changed, if one of our pt boats got destroyed under simular cercumstances as the kelvin, chances are there would have been no significant changes.


It would be impossible for a egg and a sprem from the same couple to create the same checkov 5 years ealier. Thats physic my friend.


Each ship had its own insignia in TOS thats a fact... its even stated in at least one episode. the fact some costum designer screwed up means nothing. The delta was not starfleets logo only the enterprises. Reason being. each ship had its own insignia so it members could be identified.


 


 


Fact is there are many minor and major inconsistancies that cant be contributed to the Kelvins Destuction. And thats a fact.

guillermo.mejía

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2852

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 7:58 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Nov. 27 2011, 8:48 pm

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ Nov. 27 2011, 8:30 pm

>

>I fully agree that we aren't forced to agree with each other, but half of your so called explanations are conjecture, with no real evidence.

>I could easily conter your explanation on Checkov's age and say: Their parents both served on the Kelvin; they survived the attack and felt a new rush for life and completed all their starfleet goals faster so they could start a family faster. Sounds dilly but there's no evidence to go against me from what we see in the movie, so I don't feel your crearive imagination explains adecuately these inconsistencies.

>There are still more things to address. For example, why are the late 2260's uniforms used in the mid 2250's? Again, you can say the Kelvin's destruction somehow changed this too, but that just because, again, silly. The destruction of one scout ship, or the appearance of one advance vessel could not make an entire fleet change from head to toe. Did Starfleet go nuts when they saw the first Federation vessel? Did they completely redesign their unifomrs when the Organians stopped a war? When the planet killer attacked, did Starfleet use it as reason enough to put 800 people on a scout ship? I don't think so.

>

Likewise, the claim of SOLID inconsistencies here are nothing but conjecture and perception issues, with no real evidence to back them up

Sure, you or anyone could easily conter my explanations, but neither of us can prove our cases to a 100% fact, so the real error here is in anyone claiming SOLID INCONSISTANCIES were there are none.

I'm not sure what you mean by "why are the late 2260's uniforms used in the mid 2250's?", Can you give me a link to what you mean?

But yes,Again, the destruction of the Kelvin could have lead to many changes.And yes, it could have lead an entire fleet change from head to toe.Just look at what the death of 1 woman lead to in TOS's "City on the edge of foever", or one mans death in DS9's "Past tence"

 

First off, I have to agree with you on the fact that the fact that Checkov is not Chekov is just that, and as long as we (and JJ) can admit that, we can move on and leave that as not an inonsistency, but a necesity for the whole cast to be together.


The 'City on the Edge of Forever' is a valid argument in defense of the Kelvin causing all those dicrepancies. The big problem I have is with the film makers (noobs in making Trek) have us, the longtime fans, make these large leaps of faith, more in story that in production design, like How could the Kelvin know the Nerada's crew were Romulans? They never identified themselves as such and no one had ever seen them before. And okay, say they took scans and those scans survived in one of the 20 (scoff) or so shuttles carrying the 800 (scoffs more) passangers. 


The last time they had any scans of a Romulan vessel were during the Romulan War in the 2250s to 2260s aprox. Ships back then looked in no way, shape or form like the Nerada did, so how did Starfleet figure it out?? The Nerada didn't even look like a Romulan vessel of the 24th century, though we can guess some internal components match up. That's a leap of faith in the story that I am not willing to make. That is an inconsistency right there. You can guess at it, but the fact that the movie doesn't even address this half heartedly or hint at it with Spock explain it away in a minute and a half like he did with the alternate reality means you can't just grasp at straws and say 'Oh Starfleet Intelligence this and that...'


And I almost forgot. The following unforms are from the time Kirk took on command of the Enterprise and began his 5 year mission, placing this style as starting in 2265 (accourding to Voyager, where Icheb states Kirk's mission ended in 2270):



Before these unifroms we had what Kikr wore when he fought Gary Mitchell on the original Delta Vega, and what Pike wore originally, say 2264 and prior:


 


We don't know how long these uniforms lasted so I'm not saying that the Kelvin's unifroms are wrong...only that I don't see how to explain that the 2260s uniforms were used in the 2250s, where JJ's movie takes place. Obviously it was done because these are the uniforms every associates with Star Trek, but I find no in-world explanation. Not a big deal, just an inconsistency not worth resolving.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

Matthias Russell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7705

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 8:22 am

I see no point in continuing the debate with stovokor. The discrepancies we've outlined are solid with him being unable to make a satisfactory defense. I can understand some of his points and accept some of his rationale but his defense of the Chekhov situation makes absolutely no sense, he refuses to accept inconsistencies when they are there. I guess Kirk and Spock might be different genetically as well!

And what about that Pike didn't recognize the Narada though he was on the Kelvin? Or that the Constitution that was engineered based on scans of the narada was still no match for it? You avoid these points because you can't explain them.

I'm satisfied in the case that the film was flawed and that anyone who can't see this simply doesn't want to listen to reason. Still, thanks for the stimulating debate, stovokor. I do enjoy discussing trek with you. I respect your knowledge and enthusiasm.

guillermo.mejía

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2852

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 8:31 am

I don't mind the debate, as long as it looks like it's progressing on both sides, not just stubbornly stuck in the same point, such as 'no inconcistencies that can't be explained by the Kelvin.' But similarly as stated ^ I wouldn't want to keep debatting over and over the same point.


On a sidebar, mad props to J. Hunter for getting that picture. I'd like to say the first thing I noticed was how this was rare and new to me, but Captain Pike's hand placement just screams 'CAPTAIN KIRK' to me.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

Treknoir

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1784

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 8:43 am

Seriously, folks? ST required fans to make leaps of faith on the regular in the prime timeline but doing so in the alternate ST09 universe is beyond the pale?


It's 100 fiction, half of the "canon" has been retconned, and the other half that's inconsistent is left unexplained. Good grief.


Please explain to me how you can swallow a whale speaking/earth destroying probe that requires a trip back in time to 80's San Francisco but can't FATHOM that an attack on the Kelvin might have led SF/UFP to overhaul its fleet?


I will concede that Abrams dropped the ball in the final version of the film that hit theaters. If you look at the deleted scenes, you will see that the Narada didn't just destroy the Kelvin with Nero and his crew chillaxin' for 25 years on a beach until it was time for payback. OTHER EVENTS took place that might explain why SF/UFP roided out the ships. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense that Nero didn't destroy Vulcan and the UFP immediately after crushing the Kelvin.


It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want. - Spock

guillermo.mejía

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2852

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 8:53 am

Quote: Treknoir @ Nov. 28 2011, 8:43 am

>

>Seriously, folks? ST required fans to make leaps of faith on the regular in the prime timeline but doing so in the alternate ST09 universe is beyond the pale?

>It's 100 fiction, half of the "canon" has been retconned, and the other half that's inconsistent is left unexplained. Good grief.

>Please explain to me how you can swallow a whale speaking/earth destroying probe that requires a trip back in time to 80's San Francisco but can't FATHOM that an attack on the Kelvin might have led SF/UFP to overhaul its fleet?

>I will concede that Abrams dropped the ball in the final version of the film that hit theaters. If you look at the deleted scenes, you will see that the Narada didn't just destroy the Kelvin with Nero and his crew chillaxin' for 25 years on a beach until it was time for payback. OTHER EVENTS took place that might explain why SF/UFP roided out the ships. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense that Nero didn't destroy Vulcan and the UFP immediately after crushing the Kelvin.

>
Well all Trek movies require leaps of faith, true enough. For example, when the heck did the Romulans, Klingons and Federation decide to create the planet of Galactic Peace that we see in Star Trek V, or are we suppose to really believe that a Chekov really forgot were they put can, or that no one on the Reliant noticed that the previously charted system had a planet missing? I dissect all movies equally and this one's no different. Okay, maybe a little in the since that these film makers have no direct conection to Gene's original show. Gene made TOS ---> Gene made TNG ---> Rick Berman worked under Gene before taking over ---> Berman helped Piller and Braga rise up under his leadership ---> Braga worked on Enterprise. But JJ...new. And again, I will always repeat, I think the movie is great and served it's purpose, which was to revive pop culture interest in Trek and become a financial success, while not marginalizing the long term fans.


And yes, I know all about the Klingon prison, and read the comics were Nero meets V'Ger and so on. Countdown specially helps make sense of...not plot holes, but plot....depressions or valleys...? Either way, I would recommend to anyone to read it.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

Treknoir

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1784

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 9:01 am

Quote: Matthias Russell @ Nov. 28 2011, 8:22 am

> And what about that Pike didn't recognize the Narada though he was on the Kelvin? Or that the Constitution that was engineered based on scans of the narada was still no match for it? You avoid these points because you can't explain them. I'm satisfied in the case that the film was flawed and that anyone who can't see this simply doesn't want to listen to reason. Still, thanks for the stimulating debate, stovokor. I do enjoy discussing trek with you. I respect your knowledge and enthusiasm.


Pike wasn't on the Kelvin, he wrote his SF dissertation on the incident. And how would scans of a 150+year advanced alien technology help 23rd century SF make an exact copy or 1:1 match-up? They would have to possess the technology themselves in order to try and reverse engineer the tech. And even then they might have been limited based on knowledge/capability/resources. The most they could do in 25 years without a magic equalizer is trick out what tech they DID possess to try and protect themselves.


Hell, I'm sure if I could go back in time and drop an iPhone on Tesla or Edison's lap they couldn't come up with ANYTHING matching it in 25 years. They might come up with something great, but not surpass the iPhone.


And ultimately, Kirk and crew didn't win by tech might but by brains and cunning.


It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want. - Spock

Treknoir

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1784

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 9:07 am

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ Nov. 28 2011, 8:53 am

Quote: Treknoir @ Nov. 28 2011, 8:43 am

>
Well all Trek movies require leaps of faith, true enough. For example, when the heck did the Romulans, Klingons and Federation decide to create the planet of Galactic Peace that we see in Star Trek V, or are we suppose to really believe that a Chekov really forgot were they put can, or that no one on the Reliant noticed that the previously charted system had a planet missing? I dissect all movies equally and this one's no different. Okay, maybe a little in the since that these film makers have no direct conection to Gene's original show. Gene made TOS ---> Gene made TNG ---> Rick Berman worked under Gene before taking over ---> Berman helped Piller and Braga rise up under his leadership ---> Braga worked on Enterprise. But JJ...new. And again, I will always repeat, I think the movie is great and served it's purpose, which was to revive pop culture interest in Trek and become a financial success, while not marginalizing the long term fans.

And yes, I know all about the Klingon prison, and read the comics were Nero meets V'Ger and so on. Countdown specially helps make sense of...not plot holes, but plot....depressions or valleys...? Either way, I would recommend to anyone to read it.


Thank you. Be fair is all I'm saying. I wholeheartedly agree that ST09 had its weak points. No doubt. But I think a lot of the whining is coming from a place of "it's different and not what I'm used to so I will complain about all of its flaws while closing my eyes to the gaping holes in other ST movies/episodes."


 


It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want. - Spock

guillermo.mejía

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2852

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 11:46 am

Quote: Treknoir @ Nov. 28 2011, 9:07 am

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ Nov. 28 2011, 8:53 am

Quote: Treknoir @ Nov. 28 2011, 8:43 am

>

>
Well all Trek movies require leaps of faith, true enough. For example, when the heck did the Romulans, Klingons and Federation decide to create the planet of Galactic Peace that we see in Star Trek V, or are we suppose to really believe that a Chekov really forgot were they put can, or that no one on the Reliant noticed that the previously charted system had a planet missing? I dissect all movies equally and this one's no different. Okay, maybe a little in the since that these film makers have no direct conection to Gene's original show. Gene made TOS ---> Gene made TNG ---> Rick Berman worked under Gene before taking over ---> Berman helped Piller and Braga rise up under his leadership ---> Braga worked on Enterprise. But JJ...new. And again, I will always repeat, I think the movie is great and served it's purpose, which was to revive pop culture interest in Trek and become a financial success, while not marginalizing the long term fans.

And yes, I know all about the Klingon prison, and read the comics were Nero meets V'Ger and so on. Countdown specially helps make sense of...not plot holes, but plot....depressions or valleys...? Either way, I would recommend to anyone to read it.

Thank you. Be fair is all I'm saying. I wholeheartedly agree that ST09 had its weak points. No doubt. But I think a lot of the whining is coming from a place of "it's different and not what I'm used to so I will complain about all of its flaws while closing my eyes to the gaping holes in other ST movies/episodes."

 

Oh well that's nothing new...


"Picard and TNG can't be better than Kirk and Spock!"


"Star Trek on a space station?! With a war going on? This is Dark Trek!"


"A prequel show with Captain Quantum Leap? No way!"


 


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 1:06 pm

Quote: Captain Sam @ Nov. 28 2011, 5:52 am

>the changes in the "city on the edge of forever" a key moment in time with far reaching effects was changed,


What is or isint a "key moment in time" is a matter of personal opinion, as far as "FATHER TIME" see's it, EVEY moment in time is a KEY moment.If I go back in time and stop myself from eating an apple last Friday morning I have changed history, that change may or may not impact my life in a major way,but either way I have changed time/history.


So, if the death of 1 woman can change history so as to wipe out the federation, the loss of 1 ship may or may not have a drastic effect


"if one of our pt boats got destroyed under simular cercumstances as the kelvin, chances are there would have been no significant changes."


True....and its just as likely that there could be very significant changes.The evidence go'es either way.


"It would be impossible for a egg and a sprem from the same couple to create the same checkov 5 years ealier. Thats physic my friend."


Did you read my post on this matter?Like I already said, no one in this NU-timeline is the same person.They have had different livesw,different historiesw, thast alone makes them different....life and are history maskes us what we are.


Thats just the facts my friend.


Pavel being a different sperm/egg only indicates he is more different then the rest.And agaqin, his parrents may have wanted to name their first child PAVEL no matter when he was born.


So, this is a non issue


"Each ship had its own insignia in TOS thats a fact... its even stated in at least one episode. the fact some costum designer screwed up means nothing. The delta was not starfleets logo only the enterprises. Reason being. each ship had its own insignia so it members could be identified."


Sorry, but I already proved that wrong, It doesnt matter if the real world reason is because somneone screewed up, either way it establishs that the Delta was used by other crew.


And it was also used by other crews in the Animated seriesw as well....but some dont like to accept that.


And which episode mentions the patch in dialog?


"Fact is there are many minor and major inconsistancies that cant be contributed to the Kelvins Destuction. And thats a fact."


FACT is that you have also failed to provide any SOLID inconsistancies that casnt be linked to Nero's actions.


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stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 1:47 pm

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ Nov. 28 2011, 7:58 am

>First off, I have to agree with you on the fact that the fact that Checkov is not Chekov is just that, and as long as we (and JJ) can admit that, we can move on and leave that as not an inonsistency, but a necesity for the whole cast to be together.


Thankyou, like I said, the Checkov thing is just a non issue, its not an inconsitent matter.


"The 'City on the Edge of Forever' is a valid argument in defense of the Kelvin causing all those dicrepancies. "


Again, thankyou.And I know its was a weak way to establish all these changes, but it is valid none the less


"The big problem I have is with the film makers (noobs in making Trek) have us, the longtime fans, make these large leaps of faith, more in story that in production design, like How could the Kelvin know the Nerada's crew were Romulans? They never identified themselves as such and no one had ever seen them before. "


That can easily be explained by a study of the scanns the excaping shuttles would have taken.The Narada must have some markings indentifying it as a Romulan ship, even from the future, maybe even a identifying becan.


And someone at starfleet would have identified the marking as the Romulan language.Not to mention that maybe in all those years the Klingons told the fedaration who attacked the Kelvin.It wouldnt shock me to find out that the klingons took the Kelvin wreck [if there was much left] to study.


Federation ambassodors would have been demanding answers, if there was any survivors, or wreckege, I can see a drunk klingon ambassador letting a bit of info slip as to who was in charge of the ship that attacket the Kelvin.


Bottom line, I just dont see why you would see this as a big issue when a little imagination solves it.The fact that the film doesnt address the issue isint important, not everything needs to be excplained. Its just not a SOLID story inconsistency.


"And I almost forgot. The following unforms are from the time Kirk took on command of the Enterprise and began his 5 year mission, placing this style as starting in 2265 (accourding to Voyager, where Icheb states Kirk's mission ended in 2270):


Before these unifroms we had what Kikr wore when he fought Gary Mitchell on the original Delta Vega, and what Pike wore originally, say 2264 and prior:"


thankyou for the pics, I'm having trouble posting pics.


 "We don't know how long these uniforms lasted so I'm not saying that the Kelvin's unifroms are wrong...only that I don't see how to explain that the 2260s uniforms were used in the 2250s, where JJ's movie takes place. Obviously it was done because these are the uniforms every associates with Star Trek, but I find no in-world explanation. Not a big deal, just an inconsistency not worth resolving."


We have seen before that different ships or types of asignments sometimes have different uniforms,of dont get uniform changes at the same times.In season 3 and 4 of TNG we saw how some crew members used the season 1 uniforms,yes, the real world answer is money, but since it was done it establishs that not everyone wears the same uniform as the rest of the fleet.


This was further expanded on when DS9 came around with its new uniform, althou it looked like that unform was for DS9 only.But then we swee in TNG:Genarations that some of the Enterprise D's crew was wearing the DS9 uniform.


Then we have Voyage, useing the DS9 uniform from the begining to end...even after they re-established contact with starfleet which should have indicated a change in uniforms.


All of this indicates that uniform changes happen over time and not all the fleet changes at the same time.Maybe in the Prime timeline there were a few ships useing the new uniform before the Enterprise....maybe not.


Its possible the uniform change was "in the works" for a few years, and that Nero's actions just brought about the change sooner.


This just isint an inconsistency


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stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 2:06 pm

Quote: Matthias Russell @ Nov. 28 2011, 8:22 am

>I see no point in continuing the debate with stovokor. The discrepancies we've outlined are solid with him being unable to make a satisfactory defense. I can understand some of his points and accept some of his rationale but his defense of the Chekhov situation makes absolutely no sense, he refuses to accept inconsistencies when they are there. I guess Kirk and Spock might be different genetically as well! And what about that Pike didn't recognize the Narada though he was on the Kelvin? Or that the Constitution that was engineered based on scans of the narada was still no match for it? You avoid these points because you can't explain them. I'm satisfied in the case that the film was flawed and that anyone who can't see this simply doesn't want to listen to reason. Still, thanks for the stimulating debate, stovokor. I do enjoy discussing trek with you. I respect your knowledge and enthusiasm.


I'm sorry you dont see a point in continuing this, but none, AND I MEAN NONE, of the discrepancies outlined here are SOLID or can not be explained by Neros actions. You may feel its a "cop out" tactic by the writers....but it does serve to explain the changes.You, and others ,inability to point out anything solid only proves my point.


Chekhov is a different character.........they all are,Checkov is just more different then most,and the differences are due to changes in history by Nero, whats hard to unbderstand about that?

And it was NEVER said that Pike was on the KELVIN..........so whay would he recognize the Narada? You need to re-watch the film before you start replying, citing things that are incorrect.What was said was that Pike did his dissertation on the Kelvin attack.Do you know what a dissertation is?


Althou, one would think he may have seen some images in his studies of the event, but it was many years before, and the images may have been classified. The changes to the Enterprise can also be explained by Nero's actions.The scanns taken do not mean that the results would be a "match" for anything the Narada had. But such scanns could have inspired new ways to see exsisting tech and improve on it.Making something new as a result.


I avoid none of these points because none of them cant be explained by Neros actions.Again, I admit it was a cheap ploy to use by the writers.......but it an effective one none the less. And I enjoy discussing trek with you as well, and I look forward to seeing some of these SOLID inconsistencies at some point.


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stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Nov. 28 2011, 2:10 pm

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ Nov. 28 2011, 8:31 am

>I don't mind the debate, as long as it looks like it's progressing on both sides, not just stubbornly stuck in the same point, such as 'no inconcistencies that can't be explained by the Kelvin.' But similarly as stated ^ I wouldn't want to keep debatting over and over

>


 


Ohh, dont get me wrong, I'm more then willing to entertain the possibility that there are some inconsitencies that cant be explained by Nero's actions.


The problem is that since 09, no one has been able to point out any that cant be linked to the time travel event.


Even a Checkov can be linked to the change in history.


 


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