Star Trek

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I'll just mention that Kirk couldn't have been gay, because of all the affairs he had with those various women. Some were just to an extent. There was Drusilla, Marta, Nona, Miramanee, Deela, Odona, Andrea, Sylvia, Rayna Kapec, Kelinda, Dr. Helena Noel, Dr. Janet Wallace, Areel Shaw, Dr. Janice Lester, Eve McHuron, Marlena Moreau, Shahna, Elaan, Edith Keeler, Lenore Karidian, and Janice Rand. (That's from 'Captain Kirk's guide to women' by John 'Bones' Rodriguez.)

 

You can quote all the girls he's been with..but most of the time he used them to get what he wanted. Janice Rand...attempted rape...good one evil Kirk.

That makes sense...I agree. But, about the gay stuff....of course what we saw on the series he was with the girls..I am just saying that the character Kirk or it was Shatner...I don't know but he looked at some guys with that glowy dreamy look...John Christopher...for example..don't believe me..watch this vid..

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nps1U_5fXYU

Hey and y'know I'm not against K/S if that is how you want to interpret their relationship. Everything in fiction is open to interpretation if you can justify your claim... But the OP question was not "What do you think of ...X idea?" It was "Are Kirk and Spock gay?" and while I know that others' view of them is not ever going to be the same (we all see with different filters) I happen to think they are not.

We can agree to disagree on this.

We can agree to disagree on this

 

Well said. End of discussion.

Where the hell does it say that Gene was a homophobe...he was the one that created the word t'hy'la..meaning friend, brother and lover....and he even put it in the footnote of the Motion Picture's novelization.

 

Plus there is reference to Kirk/Spock being based on Alexander the Great and Hephaestion...

 

It seems this debate will never end....

 

That presupposes that being "gay" would automatically lead a person to get together with every other gay person. There is a difference between being gay and having a homosexual relationship. And I've never seen any reference to Roddenberry being homophobic either -- that would go against his accepting, inclusive vision of the future, would it not?

And no, the debate will never end. That's just the way things are.

>
Proof Of Love
by Laura Goodwin

>How can you tell if someone is "madly in love" with a person? What are the signs that, specifically, Captain Kirk is "madly in love" with a person?

>We can produce a very specific answer to this question, that is solidly canon-based. Remember this scene from Dagger Of The Mind?

>In the scene above, Kirk is helpless in the thrall of a mindbending device and his tormentor, Dr. Adams, is planting a false suggestion in Kirk's unwilling mind. Dr. Helen Noel is being held against her will by Adams' goon in the background.

>Dr. Adams (to Kirk): "You're madly in love with Helen, Captain. You'd lie, cheat, steal for her... sacrifice your career, your reputation. For years you've loved her, Captain."

>Kirk (hypnotized): "For years, I've loved you."

>Adams: "You must continue to remember that, Captain."

>In Dagger Of The Mind, Kirk is hypnotized into believing that he is madly in love with Helen Noel. Dr. Noel (it is shown) actually would like for Kirk to be truly in love with her, since she pretty clearly has the hots for him, but she is horrified at the mind-altered Kirk's mechanically-induced ardor, and she firmly reminds Kirk more than once as the story progresses that his desire for her is phony.

>The truth about their relationship is that Kirk maybe likes her a little bit, but that's as far as it goes, and it's also as far as it probably ever would go. We are shown that Noel cherishes erotic fantasies about Kirk, but the feelings are definitely not mutual, and, early in the episode, Kirk makes that completely clear.

>We never see Helen Noel, nor hear of her, again. Like all of Kirk's other female "love interests", she proves to be a trivial character, and is completely disposable.

>No matter how much Kirk "loves" any woman, she's always completely out of the picture at episode's end. No matter how many times Kirk "desires" a woman character, the connection is always fleeting and superficial. Most of the time, when Kirk "loves" a woman, the love is obviously perfectly false. Either the woman herself is false (not really a woman:android, alien-in-human-form, phantasm) or Kirk's feelings for her are quite explicitly false (he's obviously pretending - either willfully, or because he is forced - or he has amnesia, is drugged/mechanically mind-altered), and usually, it's both. For example, in The Paradise Syndrome, Kirk "loved" his wife Priestess Miramanee, BUT he had amnesia, AND he was required to marry her by tribal law. Not only didn't he really have a choice, but he wouldn't have had the wits to choose wisely even if he had been given a choice. Plus, like any of Kirk's minor lady-loves, she was disposed of (in her case, dead) by episode's end.

>The one notable exception is Edith Keeler (City On The Edge Of Forever). Kirk's infatuation for her is not forced in any way, and seems sincere. She actually is a real woman, too. However, Kirk most emphatically never lied, cheated, stole, nor sacrificed his reputation and career for her. No. The only thing he sacrificed was her. He admitted to Mr. Spock(interestingly, NOT to her) that he was "in love" with her, but how did he prove his love? He didn't prove his love for her. He failed to prove his love for her. In that episode, all he proved with his actions is that her life, and his "love" for her, were not the most important things to him. Something/someone else was more important, as usual.

>Something/someone else is ALWAYS more important to Kirk. Let's see if we can figure out what/who that is.

>Well, let's see... has Kirk ever actually lied, cheated, stolen for anybody? Has Kirk ever risked his reputation and his career for anybody? Has Kirk ever proven that he is madly in love with anybody, judging by the criteria that Dr. Adams outlined?

>Boy, THAT really narrows it down, doesn't it!? Well, let's see... hmm. I can't think of any woman that Kirk did all these things for, can you? If you can, please name the woman, the episode/movie where she appeared, and detail the specifics of the case.

>Can't think of one? Well, neither can I.

>Well, gee, does Kirk ever do all those things for any thing/person? Yes, of course he does. We have been shown, quite dramatically, in a big way, more than once, that Kirk can/does love to that extent.

>When? Well, in Amok Time, and in Star Trek 3: The Search For Spock.

>1) Amok Time - To save Spock's life, Kirk keeps a big fat secret from his superiors (lies), takes the ship in a direction that he is forbidden to take it (steals), and explicitly risks his reputation, career ~and his life~ for Spock's sake.

>BTW, this is the episode where Spock returns home to mate, but instead he dumps his would be bride, and returns to the ship. When he sees Kirk there, alive and well, he greets Kirk ecstatically (and Kirk eats it up), acts more wildly emotional over Kirk than he did over T'Pring (which McCoy comments on) - then Spock and Kirk run off together at the end.

>2) ST3: Search For Spock - To restore Spock's katra to his body, and thereby save Spock's life (in other words, AGAIN for Spock's sake), Kirk steals the Enterprise, risks his reputation, his career, and his life, etc. etc. He even is willing to sacrifice the ship, for Spock, and we all know that's saying a lot. Kirk even loses his son in the process, which is very painful for Jim, but at the end all the trouble and loss and pain seems worth it, because Spock is successfully restored to full life. Plus, God bless him, he remembers Jim's name. He is not fully himself yet, he doesn't remember much of anything else, but by GOD he remembers Jim's name.

>BTW, this is the movie where, in an early voiceover, Kirk says he feels that he left his "more noble half" (in other words, his better half!) on Genesis. This is also the movie where Kirk says to his superior officer that he considers Spock's immortal soul to be his responsibility as much as his own is. This is also the movie where Sarek shows up unexpectedly at Kirk's quarters and seems to just assume that Kirk is the one who must be carrying Spock's katra, apparently because he knows, as well as anyone else seems to know, that Kirk and Spock were TIGHT LIKE THAT.

>But that's not all we have. We also have...

This: Kirk flirting with Spock, and coming on to him
> 

>And this: Spock admits to shameful feelings for Kirk, and they can't keep their hands off of each other

>And this: Kirk expected it to be Spock back there, and is dismayed to realize that it's a woman

>And this: Kirk hugs Spock, has his hands all over him, doesn't want to let go, and Spock allows it

>And this: Spock is much happier to see/be with Kirk than he is to see/be with his would-be bride

>And this: Kirk and Spock engage in some highly kinky master/slave behavior without a solid duty-related reason to do so

>And this: See Image. Spock mind-melds with Kirk and makes him forget his feelings for Reyna Kepek

>And this: Kirk freaks out, expresses fear of being alone, and Spock lovingly reassures him

>And this: Kirk says Spock is closer to him than anyone else in the universe, Spock risks his reputation and career for Kirk, and they boldly hold hands in front of witnesses

>And this: Spock and Kirk hold hands and squeeze, and squeeze, and SQUEEZE, and show obvious love for each other, as they talk about how important emotions are n stuff, in front of witnesses

>And this: See Image. Both Kirk and Spock refusing to "Live Long and Prosper" without the other.

>And this: Spock declares his all encompassing, unending love for Kirk

>And this: Spock warns Kirk to save the mushy stuff for later

>And this: Kirk and Spock apparently steal a quick kiss

>

>Which, face it, is more episodes and more demonstrations than either of them ever gave to any woman. But that ain't all! Heck yes, there's more. Much more.

>The whole movie Star trek 3 is about the fact that the only ship Kirk really cares about is his relationship with Spock, but the entire original Star Trek series generally makes that point and demonstrates it again and again.  That point is never challenged in any way by any of the original cast movies that followed - in fact they only added fuel to the fire by adding more K/S tidbits, while never once pretending to give either of the guys a serious female love interest.

>In the new Star Trek movie, we are shown a rebooted Star Trek universe which is explicitly an alternate timeline universe, and nothing that happens there reflects at all on all of the Trek that went before.  They cooked up a red-hot affair between Spock and Uhura, as if to try at this late stage to prove him to be firmly heterosexual - but in the same movie they felt the need to show older Spock warning his younger self to not miss his chance to build a relationship with Kirk - which is what you would expect Spock to do, if it's the same old Spock we know.

>In the new Star Trek movie, we are also offered this tantalizing and utterly classic Kirkian moment:

>Uhura (to Kirk):  "For a moment there I thought you were just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals."

>Kirk (puckishly): "Well, not ONLY..."

>It's made clear enough that this reboot-Kirk isn't a completely re-visioned Kirk. As usual, he doesn't manage to establish a relationship with any woman, and instead spends the majority of his time bedeviling Spock.  And it works.  Spock is clearly, unequivocally, totally successfully bedeviled.

>Back to Adams' criteria: who in all of the Star Trek universe, did Kirk *actually* love for years? FOR YEARS, through thick and thin? We all know the answer to that one, don't we? We all know who Kirk really would lie, cheat, steal for, and sacrifice his career/reputation for AND whom Kirk actually loved for years, yes? Spock.

>Isn't it just too perfect that the feeling is 100% obviously, explicitly mutual? Spock is clearly crazy about Kirk, too.

>Kirk and Spock's relationship with each other is the primary love relationship for both of them. It spans decades, endures terrible trials, and defies even death. It's love. MAD LOVE, baby. Kirk and Spock are madly in love with each other, and yes, it's canon.

>But didn't Roddenberry deny that any of that was in there? What if he did? But no...

>>

>There is also this:

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>Cont

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Not at all. It is an interesting question that clearly elicits a lot of discussion.

I am very interested in what you said about Roddenberry's early homophobe comment: I think it's a stage that everyone goes through at some point in their life, soon after the "Boys/Girls are icky" and "Mum and Dad did what?" stage. Most people get over it. (as Roddenberry seems to have done -- you don't admit to something like that if it is still a part of your mentality)

I don't think either that declaring: "Having considered the question, I think no." (or yes) is a ridiculous response either. It is also unlikely in my view -- very close friendships are possible without any element of sexual attraction. And anything not explicitly stated in the series (although you could reasonably argue that Kirk "stated" his sexual orientation with practically every new female character that came along.) is well and truly open to interpretation.

I think Desdinova put it quite well: not ridiculous, (not impossible), but unlikely.

I agree that Miss Goodwin can be very extreme in her essays on the subject of Kirk/Spock, but she still has some valid points.

 

The last statement you gave is also true. But, the last sentence...I can't explain it...but it just makes me happy to see them more than friends..

 

But, for me I love them both ways..I grew up with them as you see them..I am reading old star trek novels from Pocket Books...and they are hetereosexual in the books...I have no problem..reading them as straight..there is just something romantic about them...how they look at each other...I know you say it's friendship...brotherhood...but I can't help seeing them more than that....

of course not 

kirk has had many relationships with women

spock has been married

 

 

For whatever reason, there is an element of fandom who like to pretend that Kirk and Spock were gay.

I think it's a little insulting (and frankly narrow-minded / immature) to believe that two people (hetero or homosexual) cannot "love" each other without it being sexual or romantic love.

Kirk and Spock loved each other like family (like brothers). I think this is very obvious. It's also very obvious that they are both heterosexual. Kirk had everything from flings (Helen Noel, Shawna the Drill Thrall, Lenore Keridian, Deela, Jillian Taylor and many many more) to outright head-over-heals love (Edith Keeler, Rayna, Ruth, Carol Marcus) with many women. Spock, in all honesty, isn't too far behind that tally in terms of his female interests (T'Pring, Leila, Romulan Commander, Zarabeth, Droxine).

I'm not sure what itch it scratches in certain fans to come up with these constructs that try to prove that they were gay. It's obvious that they are not. What need does it satisfy in people to believe that they were? I mean, it seems that there are people who's entire fandom is based on this idea...and it's not even grounded in truth.

 

Odd...