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Wall Stree Protestors

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46314

Report this Oct. 05 2011, 2:58 pm

Quote: Chief Warrant Officer Finn @ Oct. 05 2011, 12:51 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 05 2011, 11:48 am

>

>Actually, the free market does correct the issue - it's just not the way you like it.   The problem is just been made worse with the Moral Hazard philosophy and the government's socialist policies trying to "fix"the issue instead of letting people be held accountable for what they do.

>
Hewlett-Packard and Yahoo were not bailed out by the government.  Overcompensation for inept executives is not strictly the purview of banks and investment firms.

I didn't mean to imply that he governemnt bailed everyone out - sometimes the company board bailed out the executive.  But that's your opinion that an executive was overcompensated.  As I said before, if it's a publicly traded company and you own shares, say something.  If not, then why do you care that what someone else's compensation is?


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46314

Report this Oct. 05 2011, 5:02 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>

>Actually, the free market does correct the issue - it's just not the way you like it.   The problem is just been made worse with the Moral Hazard philosophy and the government's socialist policies trying to "fix"the issue instead of letting people be held accountable for what they do.

>
Hewlett-Packard and Yahoo were not bailed out by the government.  Overcompensation for inept executives is not strictly the purview of banks and investment firms.

And what about the CEOs or Ford and the other big american car makers, they were bailed out too and have been inept and overpaid for decades.

Ford was not bailed out, but GM was.  (And Obama illegally fired GM's CEO.)


Aside from the stupidity of the government from bailing out a business, it is the the shareholders responsibility to keep executives in line.


padracin

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 325

Report this Oct. 05 2011, 5:03 pm

Quote: Chief Warrant Officer Finn @ Oct. 05 2011, 11:23 am

>The issue here is that while some companies are dying and shareholders are losing money on their investments, the top executives that are running the companies into the ground is still getting $20 million bonuses.

>


 


Thank you, this weeks WP cited the trend to 'benchmark' CEO compensation based on earnings of companies making much more money than the firm doing the benchmarking..............this compensation is not merit based, it's not 'creating jobs' quite the contrary........and its stealing value from the shareholders many of whom are holding the shares in their retirement funds.

Corwin8

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 8468

Report this Oct. 05 2011, 5:38 pm

Quote: caltrek2 @ Oct. 05 2011, 6:06 am

Quote: Corwin8 @ Oct. 04 2011, 11:11 am

>

>

>What these 'protesters' and I say that with a small measure of contempt, fail to realize is that they are promoting anarchy, in the name of some bullshit 'social justice' agenda.

>One was holding a sign downtown here in Boston. It said 'Wall street stole my house'

>How?

>Did someone from some big evil bank force her to take out a loan?

>Nope, she had to sign about 500 pieces of paperwork just to get it. No one had a gun to her head. Yet when she can no longer make the payments on her house because her job at Starbucks won't cover her morgatge, the bank forecloses. Still not stealing.

>These kids should be protesting the government who bailed out Wall street with your tax dollars, but like most kids they are upset at the wrong group of people. Next they expect me to pay for their student loans. Why not, all they really want is their shot at free stuff, from the government.

>

I think many are protesting the bail out of Wall Street that the government carried out.

How telling that it is the Republicans who are blocking the appointment to the head of an agency whose primary goal is consumer education. Clearly, they do not want folks to understand the 500+ pages of gobble dee gook that they must sign just to borrow money to buy a house 


Is that the best you can do? Really?


Never sign anything you don't read and understand first. Hire a lawyer. I had to. And I understood the process, my wife works in banking. We get it.


Never borrow more than you can afford, and home ownership is NOT a right. If you are stupid enough to think that you can afford to borrow $300000 on a Starbucks barrista's salary then good luck. The bank will be by to foreclose and reposses your house. It is no longer yours when you can't make payments, because you don't make enough money. Don't blame the banks. Not one bank put a gun to my head during the process and said I MUST borrow this money.


Funny how the government is blowing all this unaccountable cash on companies and Wall Street, yet the 'cupcake generation' is protesting Wall St.. Wrong bunch of assholes at fault. Sadly these kids have no clue, because they all got trophys and no one taught them the work is how you earn a living, not sticking your hand out and expecting someone to GIVE  you something.


Let the bridges I burn light the way. You are special, just like everybody else. Calling an illegal alien an ‘undocumented immigrant’ is like calling a drug dealer an ‘unlicensed pharmacist’

caltrek2

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2654

Report this Oct. 05 2011, 5:51 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 05 2011, 10:37 am

Quote: caltrek2 @ Oct. 05 2011, 6:07 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 04 2011, 5:26 pm

Quote: Mantaray @ Oct. 04 2011, 12:22 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 04 2011, 10:11 am

>

>

>

>

>

>Considering that Moore makes millions and millions complaining about capitalism....

>

This too sounds like Faux News propoganda sound bites.

 

Here's one person's set of "demands" on the "Occupy WallStreet" website:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme

Extremely anti-capitalist.

Yes, I liked it to. 

 

At least you are trying to understand what they want by visiting their web site. That is a good sign.

Understanding the enemy is a basic tenet in any war.


It is not your enemies you should be worried about, it is your friends.


As Americans, we sometimes suffer from too much pluribus and not enough unum. - Arthur Schelsinger, Jr.

caltrek2

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2654

Report this Oct. 05 2011, 6:05 pm

Quote: Corwin8 @ Oct. 05 2011, 5:38 pm

Quote: caltrek2 @ Oct. 05 2011, 6:06 am

Quote: Corwin8 @ Oct. 04 2011, 11:11 am

>

>

>

>What these 'protesters' and I say that with a small measure of contempt, fail to realize is that they are promoting anarchy, in the name of some bullshit 'social justice' agenda.

>One was holding a sign downtown here in Boston. It said 'Wall street stole my house'

>How?

>Did someone from some big evil bank force her to take out a loan?

>Nope, she had to sign about 500 pieces of paperwork just to get it. No one had a gun to her head. Yet when she can no longer make the payments on her house because her job at Starbucks won't cover her morgatge, the bank forecloses. Still not stealing.

>These kids should be protesting the government who bailed out Wall street with your tax dollars, but like most kids they are upset at the wrong group of people. Next they expect me to pay for their student loans. Why not, all they really want is their shot at free stuff, from the government.

>

I think many are protesting the bail out of Wall Street that the government carried out.

How telling that it is the Republicans who are blocking the appointment to the head of an agency whose primary goal is consumer education. Clearly, they do not want folks to understand the 500+ pages of gobble dee gook that they must sign just to borrow money to buy a house 

Is that the best you can do? Really?

Never sign anything you don't read and understand first. Hire a lawyer. I had to. And I understood the process, my wife works in banking. We get it.

Never borrow more than you can afford, and home ownership is NOT a right. If you are stupid enough to think that you can afford to borrow $300000 on a Starbucks barrista's salary then good luck. The bank will be by to foreclose and reposses your house. It is no longer yours when you can't make payments, because you don't make enough money. Don't blame the banks. Not one bank put a gun to my head during the process and said I MUST borrow this money.

Funny how the government is blowing all this unaccountable cash on companies and Wall Street, yet the 'cupcake generation' is protesting Wall St.. Wrong bunch of assholes at fault. Sadly these kids have no clue, because they all got trophys and no one taught them the work is how you earn a living, not sticking your hand out and expecting someone to GIVE  you something.


A denunciation of consumer advice followed by more consumer advice.


Actually, a lot of people were flippers. They bought a house at terms they knew they could not afford in the long run, held on to it long enough for it to appreciate in value, and then sold it. Many made quite a lot of money that way. They were egged on by real estate agents and bank loan officers who saw their opportunity to make a commision or two. Such "experts" assurred them that the market would never go down. Please don't try and deny that. It is not something I learned about by reading a book or a magazine article. It is something I saw while I was looking to buy a more expensive house during the end of the expansion of the bubble.


...and yes, we were encouraged to cut our losses and bail out by an attorney we ended up consulting before we moved ahead with a purchase. Yes, we took responsibilty for our own actions. What is appalling is that somehow it is ok for professionals who ought to have known better to have behaved the way that they did. That was their job, something that they did on a steady basis, and yet they got it wrong. Now you want to blame the home buyers that were escorted down this path. Further, you seem to be unwilling to crticize the party that does not want to give consumers a basic education in how the housing market works and how to avoid corrupt practices. You expect the rest of us to make any sense out of that?


Agian, many of the protestors would agree with you about the governemnt bail outs. Why do you keep acting as if they disdagree with you?  Because they want a little help with their student loans?


Wow, big crime, wanting to get an education and all. How irresponsible.


 


As Americans, we sometimes suffer from too much pluribus and not enough unum. - Arthur Schelsinger, Jr.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46314

Report this Oct. 05 2011, 7:52 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>

>

>Then as a shareholder, you should speak out.  That's one of your rights.

>
Hence the protests.

Nope - two different things.  As a shareholder, I have a right to go to a company meeting and speak out and have an impact.  The protests are just a bunch of people protesting whatever they feel like protsting about.

Unless you are a MAJOR shareholder - you have ABSOLUTELY NO POWER to change anything in the company or to influence the BOD, and you have ABSOLUTELY no impact on their decisions or their "compensation" or their appointment (all these things are decided well before General Meetings and in house and by the members of the BODs themselves).

The best you can expect is to have your say, NO ONE with any power in the company will listen to you unless you have a huge block of shares.

My observation is BOD compensation and packages are obsenely lucrative and have very little connection to the ability or performance in driving improvements and value adding within the company by these fat cats. There is no justification for these people to recieve compensation that is hundreds or even thousands of times greater than the shop floor wages personnel do.

A few things:


1) If you don't like something with the company, and you can't change it, then don't be a shareholder.  That's your choice.


2) You do realize that there are more people who play professional sports that make more than most of the executives, right?


3) The skillset to become an executive at a major corporation is very exacting.  The vast majority of people have absolutely no clue how to be a CxO - especially of a large company.  I have never been jealous of someone who's made more money than me, regardless of whether I thought they earned it or not.  And frankly, unless I'm a shareholder, it's none of my business.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46314

Report this Oct. 05 2011, 7:56 pm

Quote: Corwin8 @ Oct. 05 2011, 5:38 pm

Quote: caltrek2 @ Oct. 05 2011, 6:06 am

Quote: Corwin8 @ Oct. 04 2011, 11:11 am

>

>

>

>What these 'protesters' and I say that with a small measure of contempt, fail to realize is that they are promoting anarchy, in the name of some bullshit 'social justice' agenda.

>One was holding a sign downtown here in Boston. It said 'Wall street stole my house'

>How?

>Did someone from some big evil bank force her to take out a loan?

>Nope, she had to sign about 500 pieces of paperwork just to get it. No one had a gun to her head. Yet when she can no longer make the payments on her house because her job at Starbucks won't cover her morgatge, the bank forecloses. Still not stealing.

>These kids should be protesting the government who bailed out Wall street with your tax dollars, but like most kids they are upset at the wrong group of people. Next they expect me to pay for their student loans. Why not, all they really want is their shot at free stuff, from the government.

>

I think many are protesting the bail out of Wall Street that the government carried out.

How telling that it is the Republicans who are blocking the appointment to the head of an agency whose primary goal is consumer education. Clearly, they do not want folks to understand the 500+ pages of gobble dee gook that they must sign just to borrow money to buy a house 

Is that the best you can do? Really?

Never sign anything you don't read and understand first. Hire a lawyer. I had to. And I understood the process, my wife works in banking. We get it.

Never borrow more than you can afford, and home ownership is NOT a right. If you are stupid enough to think that you can afford to borrow $300000 on a Starbucks barrista's salary then good luck. The bank will be by to foreclose and reposses your house. It is no longer yours when you can't make payments, because you don't make enough money. Don't blame the banks. Not one bank put a gun to my head during the process and said I MUST borrow this money.

Funny how the government is blowing all this unaccountable cash on companies and Wall Street, yet the 'cupcake generation' is protesting Wall St.. Wrong bunch of assholes at fault. Sadly these kids have no clue, because they all got trophys and no one taught them the work is how you earn a living, not sticking your hand out and expecting someone to GIVE  you something.

Yep.  I know when I bought my house, I purchased something that cost half of what I was approved to get a loan for.  Also, I had all closing documents sent to me several day ahead of time so we could read and understand them.  And then at closing, we compared each of the papers to make sure that they didn't add any or change any at the last minute.


It's called "individual responsibility".


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46314

Report this Oct. 05 2011, 7:59 pm

Quote: caltrek2 @ Oct. 05 2011, 5:51 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 05 2011, 10:37 am

Quote: caltrek2 @ Oct. 05 2011, 6:07 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 04 2011, 5:26 pm

Quote: Mantaray @ Oct. 04 2011, 12:22 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 04 2011, 10:11 am

>

>

>

>

>

>

>Considering that Moore makes millions and millions complaining about capitalism....

>

This too sounds like Faux News propoganda sound bites.

 

Here's one person's set of "demands" on the "Occupy WallStreet" website:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme

Extremely anti-capitalist.

Yes, I liked it to. 

 

At least you are trying to understand what they want by visiting their web site. That is a good sign.

Understanding the enemy is a basic tenet in any war.

It is not your enemies you should be worried about, it is your friends.

My friends are well armed and have my back.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46314

Report this Oct. 05 2011, 8:05 pm

Quote: caltrek2 @ Oct. 05 2011, 6:05 pm

>A denunciation of consumer advice followed by more consumer advice.
Remember, it was the government who wanted to "roll the dice."


Mortgages have been one of the very safest investments for decades - until the government got involved.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46314

Report this Oct. 05 2011, 8:11 pm

Quote: caltrek2 @ Oct. 05 2011, 6:05 pm

>Actually, a lot of people were flippers. They bought a house at terms they knew they could not afford in the long run, held on to it long enough for it to appreciate in value, and then sold it. Many made quite a lot of money that way. They were egged on by real estate agents and bank loan officers who saw their opportunity to make a commision or two. Such "experts" assurred them that the market would never go down. Please don't try and deny that. It is not something I learned about by reading a book or a magazine article. It is something I saw while I was looking to buy a more expensive house during the end of the expansion of the bubble.
Agreed.  There were a lot of people making money flipping homes and since the Federal Reserve was artificially keeping interest rates lower than inflation and since we had the stock market bubble burst, the next one is always the real estate bubble.


And since the mortgage companies were being forced by the government to give out subprime loans, they were lending to people who couldn't afford it (even though many of those loans were then bought by Fannie/Freddie.)


And yes, some of the banks out there were pushing the homes and even artificially inflating appraisals to get things through.


 


But.... Anyone who believes that a market can't go down fails critical thinking.  That's a ignorant as saying that a person who steps off a cliff won't fall.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46314

Report this Oct. 05 2011, 8:15 pm

Quote: caltrek2 @ Oct. 05 2011, 6:05 pm

>...and yes, we were encouraged to cut our losses and bail out by an attorney we ended up consulting before we moved ahead with a purchase. Yes, we took responsibilty for our own actions. What is appalling is that somehow it is ok for professionals who ought to have known better to have behaved the way that they did. That was their job, something that they did on a steady basis, and yet they got it wrong. Now you want to blame the home buyers that were escorted down this path. Further, you seem to be unwilling to crticize the party that does not want to give consumers a basic education in how the housing market works and how to avoid corrupt practices. You expect the rest of us to make any sense out of that?
Sadly, there are even people out there that are telling people to just not pay their mortgage and live in their homes without paying what they owe because it takes the banks a while to foreclose.  Of course, it's going to affect their credit score and harm them...


Now... Who should be responsible for giving potential home buyers an "education"???  Do I go to a car dealer and have them "educate" me on which car they want me to buy?  Of course not!  And neither should a homebuyer be educated by the seller or real estate agent.  The home buyer is responsible for educating themselves - and there's a lot of information out there - they just need to be responsible to do it.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46314

Report this Oct. 05 2011, 8:17 pm

Quote: caltrek2 @ Oct. 05 2011, 6:05 pm

>Agian, many of the protestors would agree with you about the governemnt bail outs. Why do you keep acting as if they disdagree with you?  Because they want a little help with their student loans?
It is not the government responsibility to bail out the students any more it was to bail out companies.  People need to stop sucking the taxpayers dry.


 


The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics.

-- Professor Thomas Sowell


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46314

Report this Oct. 05 2011, 8:19 pm

Quote: caltrek2 @ Oct. 05 2011, 6:05 pm

>Wow, big crime, wanting to get an education and all. How irresponsible.
Of course it's not - but it's the individual's responsibilty - not the corporations or the governments.  (and remember, most of these people are already products of our gubmunt edewkayshun & indocktrunayshun cystduuhhmm - which explains exactly why these people didn't think about any of this stuff critically.)


The problem isn't that Johnny can't read. The problem isn't even that Johnny can't think. The problem is that Johnny doesn't know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling.

-- Professor Thomas Sowell


caltrek2

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2654

Report this Oct. 06 2011, 6:09 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 05 2011, 11:45 am

Quote: Chief Warrant Officer Finn @ Oct. 05 2011, 11:38 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 05 2011, 10:33 am

>

>

>Capitalism is about freedom.  Freedom to create and produce and earn based on the value of our contributions.

>
Except Léo Apotheker is taking home $28 million in severance packages for running HP into the ground and costing investors millions of dollars of their own money.  He also got a large severance package after being fired from the previous company he ran into the ground.
And?  If it was part of his severence package, which is a contract, then blame the people that wrote the contract.


Hence the protests on Wall Street.


As Americans, we sometimes suffer from too much pluribus and not enough unum. - Arthur Schelsinger, Jr.

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