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"Dead Peasant Insurance"

SLagonia

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 18170

Report this Sep. 23 2011, 12:11 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Sep. 23 2011, 10:10 am

Quote: SLagonia @ Sep. 23 2011, 9:59 am

>

>

>And it effects me how, exactly?  Why do I even care?  Honestly, I'd rather my company were provided for so that I don't leave them in a mess when I die.

>

If it does come to light after someone dies, and it's something to which they have not given their consent, it has a profound emotional effect on the family and people that they have left behind. Maybe you don't care. Maybe you think this has nothing to do with the humanity of a person, but a lot of people don't share your values regarding the company you work for. At the end of the day, they have a right to know.


So your 'values' in reguards to your company is that you want them to suffer.  You want them to be weakened financially should you die as some final act of revenge against them for having the nerve to employ you.


Seriously, let's review;


Your company sees you as a valuable asset, and decides to hedge its bets aginast your unexpected departure and purchase insurance on you, so that if you were to die, they would be provided enough money to train your replacement and pay the temporary fill-ins.  You deem this as some horrible violation of your rights because...  You hate your boss?  Seriously, I'm trying to come up with something here.


"If it doesn't work, paint it." -Unofficial Motto of the Starfleet Border Patrol -------- "Speak for the unheard, secure the vulnerable, bring light to the dark, fight for those who cannot" -Real motto of The Starfleet Border Patrol

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Sep. 23 2011, 8:20 pm

Quote: Invader_Wishfire @ Sep. 23 2011, 11:50 am

Quote: OtakuJo @ Sep. 23 2011, 8:29 am

>

>

>No but you surely don't have a right to insure someone else's car under your own name!

>

And I'm sure those comapnies aren't trying to take out policies on another company's employees.


Hang on! Employees don't belong to the company.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46309

Report this Sep. 23 2011, 8:32 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Sep. 23 2011, 8:20 pm

Quote: Invader_Wishfire @ Sep. 23 2011, 11:50 am

Quote: OtakuJo @ Sep. 23 2011, 8:29 am

>

>

>

>No but you surely don't have a right to insure someone else's car under your own name!

>

And I'm sure those comapnies aren't trying to take out policies on another company's employees.

Hang on! Employees don't belong to the company.

But the labor does.


OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Sep. 23 2011, 8:40 pm

Quote: SLagonia @ Sep. 23 2011, 12:11 pm

>

>So your 'values' in reguards to your company is that you want them to suffer.  You want them to be weakened financially should you die as some final act of revenge against them for having the nerve to employ you.

>


Total misinterpretation.


I don't care what happens to the company after I die or leave them. They can get wealthier, or they can go bankrupt -- I couldn't care less either way. What they cannot do, however, is profit from me without my consent.


This has zero to do with revenge.


But people take out insurance on their car or house that they own. They take out insurance on their lives because they want to provide for others after they die -- and even if we look at it from the point of view of possession, they own their lives.


Important: It is morally wrong to take out insurance on things that don't belong to you!


The company does not own the lives of its employees -- and they therefore have no moral right to take out policies without their employees' informed consent, any more than an employee does to take out theft insurance on a company car.


And the second way in which this is wrong, which I have said repeatedly I know, is that they do this in secret. Not even being honest and open about how they are appropriating people's names, but having to be exposed. Honestly, if the practice wasn't unethical, (ethics are important) it would never have been secret.


And as to why it's a creepy notion, that's pretty self-evident.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Sep. 23 2011, 8:42 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Sep. 23 2011, 8:32 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Sep. 23 2011, 8:20 pm

Quote: Invader_Wishfire @ Sep. 23 2011, 11:50 am

Quote: OtakuJo @ Sep. 23 2011, 8:29 am

>

>

>

>

>No but you surely don't have a right to insure someone else's car under your own name!

>

And I'm sure those comapnies aren't trying to take out policies on another company's employees.

Hang on! Employees don't belong to the company.

But the labor does.


Then someone else does that labour. Labour is transferrable. And even if it were justified, what would be so wrong with demanding the signed consent of employees?


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

DS9TREK

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 14322

Report this Sep. 23 2011, 8:47 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Sep. 23 2011, 8:40 pm

>What they cannot do, however, is profit from me without my consent.


They don't profit from you. They get the money to hire and train your replacement.

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Sep. 23 2011, 8:48 pm

One and a half million dollars?


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

DS9TREK

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 14322

Report this Sep. 23 2011, 8:51 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Sep. 23 2011, 8:42 pm

>Then someone else does that labour. Labour is transferrable. And even if it were justified, what would be so wrong with demanding the signed consent of employees?

>


So the guy has just spent thousands advertising a job, interviewing the applicants and then training you up. And you want him to beg you sign a form so he'll get the money he spent on you back if you die.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46309

Report this Sep. 23 2011, 8:53 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Sep. 23 2011, 8:42 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Sep. 23 2011, 8:32 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Sep. 23 2011, 8:20 pm

Quote: Invader_Wishfire @ Sep. 23 2011, 11:50 am

Quote: OtakuJo @ Sep. 23 2011, 8:29 am

>

>

>

>

>

>No but you surely don't have a right to insure someone else's car under your own name!

>

And I'm sure those comapnies aren't trying to take out policies on another company's employees.

Hang on! Employees don't belong to the company.

But the labor does.

Then someone else does that labour. Labour is transferrable. And even if it were justified, what would be so wrong with demanding the signed consent of employees?

Labor is not always easily transferrable.  In my area, the people I need almost always have at least 10 years experience and must meet certain criteria.  Hiring people is a risk and losing them costs money.


Think of it as an insurance policy of losing labor due to death...


DS9TREK

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 14322

Report this Sep. 23 2011, 8:55 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Sep. 23 2011, 8:48 pm

>

>One and a half million dollars?

>


Yeah, for someone who's worth a million quid. If David Beckham dies or suffers a career ending injury his club will get millions. Because that's his market value. Trust me, your local McDonalds won't get a million quid because the guy at the drive thru died.

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Sep. 23 2011, 9:15 pm

Quote: DS9TREK @ Sep. 23 2011, 8:51 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Sep. 23 2011, 8:42 pm

>

>Then someone else does that labour. Labour is transferrable. And even if it were justified, what would be so wrong with demanding the signed consent of employees?

>

So the guy has just spent thousands advertising a job, interviewing the applicants and then training you up. And you want him to beg you sign a form so he'll get the money he spent on you back if you die.


"Beg"?


Come on. The system demands consent on all sorts of things. But you get them to ask their employees, for sure! And demand honesty and open-ness.


Even if it's just a simple matter of, "Look, we need to get you to have a look at this form. It's an insurance consent form, so that we can insure against your death. Have a look at it. Take it home if you need to read it in detail, and you can bring it back to us tomorrow." That's not begging. It's honest and open negotiation.


And like I said before, it's better insurance for the company than these kind of underhanded deals that they've been engaging in. And involving employees in decisions that do concern them. And communicate with unions and employees rather than going over their heads.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Sep. 23 2011, 9:21 pm

Quote: DS9TREK @ Sep. 23 2011, 8:55 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Sep. 23 2011, 8:48 pm

>

>

>One and a half million dollars?

>

Yeah, for someone who's worth a million quid. If David Beckham dies or suffers a career ending injury his club will get millions. Because that's his market value. Trust me, your local McDonalds won't get a million quid because the guy at the drive thru died.


Did you see the links? This is what they pay out for blue-collar employees. Like I told Wissa, I might have taken your point if there weren't cases to refute it.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Sep. 23 2011, 9:25 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Sep. 23 2011, 8:53 pm

>

>Labor is not always easily transferrable.  In my area, the people I need almost always have at least 10 years experience and must meet certain criteria.  Hiring people is a risk and losing them costs money.

>Think of it as an insurance policy of losing labor due to death...

>


Get the informed and signed consent of employees, then -- not insurance through secret deals that unions, employees and their families aren't even told about until someone dies and their family is grieving. Bottom line: It's still taking out policies in secret against what is not yours to claim.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Sep. 23 2011, 9:41 pm

One thing about Beckham too -- edit button still not working -- You can bet anything you like that whoever has insurance on him would have sought his permission first, or risk being sued for everything save their grandma's soiled underdacks.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46309

Report this Sep. 23 2011, 9:57 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Sep. 23 2011, 9:25 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Sep. 23 2011, 8:53 pm

>

>

>Labor is not always easily transferrable.  In my area, the people I need almost always have at least 10 years experience and must meet certain criteria.  Hiring people is a risk and losing them costs money.

>Think of it as an insurance policy of losing labor due to death...

>

Get the informed and signed consent of employees, then -- not insurance through secret deals that unions, employees and their families aren't even told about until someone dies and their family is grieving. Bottom line: It's still taking out policies in secret against what is not yours to claim.

It's unnecessary. And yes, the labor that I pay someone for is mine to claim just like any labor I do for an employer belongs to them.


Employers make many decisions that affect their business and employees every day.  This decision doesn't affect the employee at all - only addresses risk of losing one.


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