So Worf can kill this guy but not that guy?

lostshaker

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Report this Sep. 14 2011, 6:53 am

Quote: OtakuJo @ Sep. 14 2011, 5:55 am

>

>* If, by Federation standards, Kurn was "a nobody", then the Federation should give up its high n mighty attitude immediately.

>* Secondly -- I would like to propose the hypothesis that it was Sisko's ego dictating his attitude to Kurn's death; as he has demonstrated in the past (particularly in his response to the Maquis, and to Garak at the end of Pale Moonlight) that he does not like things happening which are outside of his control.

>


I'd be willing to lean on the side of Sisko's ego. The issue of respecting (and degree of participating therein) alien customs seems to be at Captain's discression. Picard, as a diplomat, had much patience and tolerance. Sisko not so much (though that could be due to having to deal with Bajorans day in and day out).


I bet if Kurn had come aboard the Enterprise, Picard would've permitted the Klingon Right, or at least granted Worf a leave of absence to find a planet where the two could've practiced their beliefs in private. Along with that, I'm sure Worf would've been more likely to include Picard, telling the Captain beforehand, as opposed to assuming his rights with Sisko.

j3067

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Report this Sep. 14 2011, 7:33 am

OtakuJo has a point, Kurn was not really a 'nobody'.  He was a recently disgraced former member of the high councel. 

Tuvokian

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Report this Sep. 14 2011, 11:14 am

I can't agree Kurn was nobody. I loved that character. He brought up some great episodes.


And I think he got more honour within then Worf, his brother.


Think about it.


 


 


 


 

Shumsky

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Report this Sep. 26 2011, 8:04 am

Quote: OtakuJo @ Sep. 12 2011, 9:47 pm

>

>When he killed Duras, his commanding officer was Picard -- who is a bit of a wimp as far as dealing out punishment goes.

>When he killed Gowron, I think Sisko understood it was the only (politically viable) way to turn the war around and stop Gowron's self-interested battle maneouvres.

>When he (almost) killed Kurn, there was nothing really to justify that within Federation boundaries, as far as Sisko was concerned.

>


when he killed Duras it was on klingon ship and Duras accepted Worf's challenge, so it was all according to klingon "law". Picard would never tolerated it if he did it on Enterprise.


 


I think he killed Gowron on DS9 so he should have ended up in porison, even if did Sisko allowed ti, he is still not above the Federation law. Worf commited murder on a Federation station.


 


 


 


 


"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein

OtakuJo

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Report this Sep. 26 2011, 8:58 pm

Quote: Shumsky @ Sep. 26 2011, 8:04 am

>

>when he killed Duras it was on klingon ship and Duras accepted Worf's challenge, so it was all according to klingon "law". Picard would never tolerated it if he did it on Enterprise.

>


Fair 'nuff -- yeah I don't think Picard would have tolerated it on the Enterprise. But then from a Starfleet point of view the location was to some degree a technicality, since Worf was still an officer under Picard's command.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

Matthias Russell

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Report this Nov. 23 2011, 9:27 am

New thoughts from new members?

Kdbtrekkin

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Report this Nov. 23 2011, 10:02 am

Let's see. He killed Duras on there ship, I minor disctinction, but still... Picard might not like his behavior but he did hurt his record for doing that.


 


Killing Gowron, he did it as a Klingon not as a Starfleet officer and of course the war,  War changes everything, just fact.


 


As for Kurn that was a Klingon ritual, Worf and Kurn should have gone back to Kronos to do that. As for erasing his personality, I don't know. In human thinking it would be better than death, at least he can start a new life.


"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires, seek discipline and find your liberty." Frank Herbert(Dune)

Matthias Russell

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Report this Nov. 23 2011, 1:36 pm

He killed Gowron on the station in uniform, I believe. I think being a time of war makes it worse from a UFP viewpoint even though under Klingon law his actions were legal.

Broadstorm

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Report this Nov. 24 2011, 5:56 am

Throughout both series, Worf kept going back & forth between race & duty, and StarFleet was much too lenient.  He wore a sash, a symbol of his race's violent arrogance over his uniform even though it was a big deal or a Bajoran to wear an earring wich didn't even touch the uniform.  In TNG, he disobeyed Yar, a superior officer who was chief of security in a security situation only to become chief of security a few weeks later.  While he was chief of security sworn to protect his captain, he chose to reverse the roles by asking Picard to fight for him when he would not be allowed to fight.  (How does that make any sense?  Um.. It doesn't.)  He left Enterprise to get into the Klingon politics only to decide he wanted to come back by the end of the episode.  In DS9, there were at least 3 different times that he left his StarFleet post to go running off with other Klingons during a war. Then, this proud warrior who brags about his sense of duty & honor defies his duty and lets thousands die because he doesn't want to give up his wife.  I would not allow such things under my command. 

toDQun

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Report this Nov. 24 2011, 10:37 am

Quote: Broadstorm @ Nov. 24 2011, 5:56 am

>

>Throughout both series, Worf kept going back & forth between race & duty, and StarFleet was much too lenient.  He wore a sash, a symbol of his race's violent arrogance over his uniform even though it was a big deal or a Bajoran to wear an earring wich didn't even touch the uniform.  In TNG, he disobeyed Yar, a superior officer who was chief of security in a security situation only to become chief of security a few weeks later.  While he was chief of security sworn to protect his captain, he chose to reverse the roles by asking Picard to fight for him when he would not be allowed to fight.  (How does that make any sense?  Um.. It doesn't.)  He left Enterprise to get into the Klingon politics only to decide he wanted to come back by the end of the episode.  In DS9, there were at least 3 different times that he left his StarFleet post to go running off with other Klingons during a war. Then, this proud warrior who brags about his sense of duty & honor defies his duty and lets thousands die because he doesn't want to give up his wife.  I would not allow such things under my command. 

>


It seems like you are insinuating that Klingons have no place on a Federation ship, because their values and ethics are too different from those espoused by the Federation.  I find it hard to disagree with you. Worf is one of my favorite characters, and the Klingons are my favorite aliens, but you make some valid points.  From a Klingon point of view, Worf's actions make sense.  But too often, Klingon and human values just do not mix. At the end of the day, what keeps the UFP together is that the member species - as different as they may be - at least agree on some common principles.  I still think Worf is an excellent officer, but since he has voluntarily joined Starfleet, he is bound to uphold Federation values.  If he is unwilling to do so, or if he feels that Klingon values are more important, he should resign.  I think Worf is an excellent study in how a person thrust into an alien environment would react.  He's obviously conflicted - sometimes he represses his Klingon instincts and sides with the Federation, yet other times he chooses to act in a way consistent with Klingon values. 


toDQun

Matthias Russell

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Report this Nov. 26 2011, 7:10 pm

Quote: toDQun @ Nov. 24 2011, 10:37 am

Quote: Broadstorm @ Nov. 24 2011, 5:56 am

>

>

>Throughout both series, Worf kept going back & forth between race & duty, and StarFleet was much too lenient.  He wore a sash, a symbol of his race's violent arrogance over his uniform even though it was a big deal or a Bajoran to wear an earring wich didn't even touch the uniform.  In TNG, he disobeyed Yar, a superior officer who was chief of security in a security situation only to become chief of security a few weeks later.  While he was chief of security sworn to protect his captain, he chose to reverse the roles by asking Picard to fight for him when he would not be allowed to fight.  (How does that make any sense?  Um.. It doesn't.)  He left Enterprise to get into the Klingon politics only to decide he wanted to come back by the end of the episode.  In DS9, there were at least 3 different times that he left his StarFleet post to go running off with other Klingons during a war. Then, this proud warrior who brags about his sense of duty & honor defies his duty and lets thousands die because he doesn't want to give up his wife.  I would not allow such things under my command. 

>

It seems like you are insinuating that Klingons have no place on a Federation ship, because their values and ethics are too different from those espoused by the Federation.  I find it hard to disagree with you. Worf is one of my favorite characters, and the Klingons are my favorite aliens, but you make some valid points.  From a Klingon point of view, Worf's actions make sense.  But too often, Klingon and human values just do not mix. At the end of the day, what keeps the UFP together is that the member species - as different as they may be - at least agree on some common principles.  I still think Worf is an excellent officer, but since he has voluntarily joined Starfleet, he is bound to uphold Federation values.  If he is unwilling to do so, or if he feels that Klingon values are more important, he should resign.  I think Worf is an excellent study in how a person thrust into an alien environment would react.  He's obviously conflicted - sometimes he represses his Klingon instincts and sides with the Federation, yet other times he chooses to act in a way consistent with Klingon values. 


 


Excellent points and this is why though the Klingons make excellent allies of the UFP, I can't see them ever being members unless their culture drastically changed.


Though I like Worf, he seemed to get away with jumping back and forth over the fence too often.  Hmm, Michael Dorn did the same thing between TNG movies and DS9.  The Defiant being "adrift but salvagable" and Worf's long disappearance during Insurrection could of at least been mentioned.


Broadstorm

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Report this Nov. 27 2011, 3:43 am

Yeah, that's another complaint of mine, but it seemed a little off from the original topic.  Star Trek has devolved into Ridge Trek.  They were in at least 5 of the 6 movies for the original cast, and featured heavily in Generations, a Kingon was in all 7 seasons of TNG, then transferred to DS9 for seasons 4 - 7, but kept showing up on the Enterprise E for each of the movies after his transfer.  DS9 had several episodes that took place almost entirely on klingon ships.  Voyager had a half-klingon, the first recurring adversary race they encountered were low tech klingon look alikes, and klingons kept showing up through whatever plot devices anyone decided to use. Then Enterprise established that ridgeheads were already in the picture before Earth deployed its first warp 5 ship.


I have to disagree about the Klingons being excellent allies.  There wouldn't even have been an alliance if the ridgeheads hadn't blown up a moon.  "Today is a good day to die... oh, crap... let's negotiate."  Nearly every TNG episode that featured them threatened the alliance.  They were easily swayed by the Dominion effort to destabilize the region.  The easiest to sway is the least committed to the alliance.  They were just looking for an excuse, and as Worf stated in the DS9 episode with Risa, many of the Klingons wanted to attack the UFP, not because of honor, but because they figured they could pull it off.

stovokor2000-A

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Report this Nov. 27 2011, 11:42 am

Quote: Matthias Russell @ Sep. 12 2011, 8:47 pm

>

>Worf killed 2 different Klingon politicians . . . no big deal.  But when he tries to kill his brother (a nobody) per a Klingon custom he gets in trouble.  Isn't this not just a double standard but also ignoring the major killings while making a big deal of a minor one?

>


this is how I saw it


When he killed Duras he did it on a Klingon ship following Klingon laws/tradictions.So he was on klingon territory following klingon laws.


When he killed Gowron,he did it on what can be called the Klingon embassy/head quarters in the area.Embassies/Head quarters are considered sovereign territories So again, he was in klingon territory following klingon laws.


When he tried to kill Kurn, he did so in his private quarters, which was afforded to him by the deal the Federation made with the Bajorn goverment to manege the station.


So, in trying to kill someone over a family matter he was breaking the laws of the federation and the bajoren goverments.


 


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stovokor2000-A

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Report this Nov. 27 2011, 11:57 am

Quote: Matthias Russell @ Sep. 12 2011, 10:37 pm

>Vulcans can kill each other in the kal if fee


 


we never saw this happen on a federation ship/station.


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Matthias Russell

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Report this Nov. 27 2011, 5:22 pm

I'm pretty sure UFP law requires member states to respect life and would not allow ritualistic murder.

Wasn't Duras killed on the Enterprise?

Even if Worf killed those men in Klingon territory, he did it in Starfleet uniform and officers are expected to uphold starfleet standards even in their private life or they could be dismissed as is true in the modern military.

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