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So Worf can kill this guy but not that guy?

Matthias Russell

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Report this Sep. 12 2011, 8:47 pm

Worf killed 2 different Klingon politicians . . . no big deal.  But when he tries to kill his brother (a nobody) per a Klingon custom he gets in trouble.  Isn't this not just a double standard but also ignoring the major killings while making a big deal of a minor one?

OtakuJo

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Report this Sep. 12 2011, 9:47 pm

When he killed Duras, his commanding officer was Picard -- who is a bit of a wimp as far as dealing out punishment goes.


When he killed Gowron, I think Sisko understood it was the only (politically viable) way to turn the war around and stop Gowron's self-interested battle maneouvres.


When he (almost) killed Kurn, there was nothing really to justify that within Federation boundaries, as far as Sisko was concerned.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

Matthias Russell

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Report this Sep. 12 2011, 10:37 pm

Vulcans can kill each other in the kal if fee but Worf can't commit ritualistic murder? Sisko only approves of Klingon ritualistic murder when it the needs of the many are involved? Seems a little unfair.

Plus, is the murder of personality really any less terrible than murder of the organism?

OtakuJo

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Report this Sep. 13 2011, 12:17 am

It's hard to say what Sisko would think of Vulcan (or Andorian or any other race for that matter) ritual killings or fights to the death. We did not see any of that taking place on DS9. I don't imagine that he would approve -- he doesn't seem to like Vulcans very much anyway! lol.


Perhaps it isn't "fair" in the Federation sense of the word, but Sisko's seems very much like a man who adapts his attitude to individual circumstances. He also makes very different decisions in wartime than he does in peace.


As far as the memory wipe on Kurn goes, it may have been an undesirable option: Based essentially on a loophole in Federation law / ethics. Was there a viable alternative, given Sisko's reaction to the initial incident?


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

Matthias Russell

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Report this Sep. 13 2011, 6:56 am

Yeah. If you can delete a personality, why can't you bury it so it can be recovered?

Sisko didn't like Vulcans. That's true. He definitely wouldn't have tolerated Kal if fee.

SLagonia

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Report this Sep. 13 2011, 8:18 am

Quote: Matthias Russell @ Sep. 12 2011, 10:37 pm

>Vulcans can kill each other in the kal if fee but Worf can't commit ritualistic murder? Sisko only approves of Klingon ritualistic murder when it the needs of the many are involved? Seems a little unfair.


Because Vulcan's are considered enlightened and therefore allowed, whereas Klingons are savages from outside the border.  The Federation looks far more kindly on its founding members than it does the barbarians at the gates.


"If it doesn't work, paint it." -Unofficial Motto of the Starfleet Border Patrol -------- "Speak for the unheard, secure the vulnerable, bring light to the dark, fight for those who cannot" -Real motto of The Starfleet Border Patrol

Matthias Russell

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Report this Sep. 13 2011, 8:32 am

^ Truth.

guillermo.mejía

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Report this Sep. 13 2011, 6:01 pm

Also, we don't know if Vulcan maiting rituals continue in the 24th Century. there's no reason to assume they stopped (unless I am forgetting some mention of it by Tuvok). Nevertheless the double standard is there, no doubt because the Vulcans are so intertwined in what the Federation is, and they can control the bloodlust far better than the Klingons.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

j3067

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Report this Sep. 13 2011, 6:20 pm

I also think that the fact that the Vulcan's do everything possible keep these matters exclusively on Vulcan probably plays a roll in how their tendancies are perceived overall.  Pon Farr situations or Sarek's eventual breakdown due to old age are not typical of what is on public display. 

lostshaker

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Report this Sep. 13 2011, 7:48 pm

Quote: j3067 @ Sep. 13 2011, 6:20 pm

>

>I also think that the fact that the Vulcan's do everything possible keep these matters exclusively on Vulcan probably plays a roll in how their tendancies are perceived overall.

>


Right on. And by keeping it on Vulcan, the matter is an internal affair and the PD applies.

Matthias Russell

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Report this Sep. 13 2011, 8:09 pm

I can buy that as well I guess. What you do on your planet is your business but on the clock and on a starfleet vessel, ritual murder is not accepted. However, the 2 Klingons that Worf killed he killed in uniform. I could accept him killing Gowron if he was at least in klingon clothes.

j3067

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Report this Sep. 13 2011, 8:51 pm

I see your point MR.  I never liked the way they handled that Kurn business. Why is destroying his identity better than killing him?  Another incident that probably belongs in the discussion is that Picard and Riker probably would have let Alexander kill Worf when he threw his back out.

OtakuJo

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Report this Sep. 13 2011, 9:37 pm

Quote: Matthias Russell @ Sep. 13 2011, 6:56 am

>Yeah. If you can delete a personality, why can't you bury it so it can be recovered? Sisko didn't like Vulcans. That's true. He definitely wouldn't have tolerated Kal if fee.


"If you can delete a personality, why can't you bury it so it can be recovered?"


The way I understand Bashir's explanation in this, it might not have been medically possible.


I'm also watching Hard Time, and he seems to imply something similar to Keiko: only way to rid O'Brien of the prison experience would have been "to erase his memory and clearly that isn't an option."


Evidence in Trek is that repressed memories can cause problems later; and erased memories can't be retrieved.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

HisRoyalHighnessTheKing

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Report this Sep. 14 2011, 4:02 am

He should have been allowed to kill Kurn.


 

OtakuJo

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Report this Sep. 14 2011, 5:55 am

Some thoughts I had tonight.


 


* If, by Federation standards, Kurn was "a nobody", then the Federation should give up its high n mighty attitude immediately.


* Secondly -- I would like to propose the hypothesis that it was Sisko's ego dictating his attitude to Kurn's death; as he has demonstrated in the past (particularly in his response to the Maquis, and to Garak at the end of Pale Moonlight) that he does not like things happening which are outside of his control.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

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