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Tolerant of Different Faiths

CroBob_502578986

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POSTS: 104

Report this Sep. 09 2011, 9:01 pm

I personally have no faith at all. If I believe something, it's because I have some reason or another to think the thing I think is actually true, and if I wind up being wrong I simply alter what I think to more accurately represent reality. However, this makes me curious about people who do have faith. When I have no reason to think something is true, I don't. Now, I'm not going to ask why you think your faith is true, more like I'm asking do you even think that? Do you believe that your religious faith is actually correct? Does your faith accurately represent reality, the way it actually is?


 


And that brings me to something else; If you think that your religious faith is correct, then why do you "tolerate" other faiths? I mean, I wouldn't expect you to go on street corners and shove pamphlets down people's throats, but if your faith is correct other people's faith are necessarily NOT correct, if their religion is different from yours. So how do you stand idly by and not try to correct the mistakes those other people must be making? And if you have no reason to suppose they're actually wrong, then how can you presume you're actually correct?


 


In science, when there's an investigation into how reality works, hypotheses are made, tests are done, and a scientific consencus is eventually reached. That's how we know the method is actually working, the people who test it agree that this or that is, objectively, how reality works. Religion, on the other hand, is doing nothing except growing more and more diverse. So is there no dissonance to you? How can you believe that something is objectively true, yet have no problem with someone thinking something contrary is just as true? Do you not desire to look into it more deeply, to learn more about it, and determine who's actually correct?

OtakuJo

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Report this Sep. 09 2011, 9:04 pm

Quote: CroBob_502578986 @ Sep. 09 2011, 9:01 pm

>

>And that brings me to something else; If you think that your religious faith is correct, then why do you "tolerate" other faiths? I mean, I wouldn't expect you to go on street corners and shove pamphlets down people's throats, but if your faith is correct other people's faith are necessarily NOT correct, if their religion is different from yours. So how do you stand idly by and not try to correct the mistakes those other people must be making? And if you have no reason to suppose they're actually wrong, then how can you presume you're actually correct?

>


Better watch out with that one you might end up with a bunch of people trying to Correct you. (Yes, the capital was deliberate.)


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

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Report this Sep. 09 2011, 11:07 pm

Yeah I always feel quite nervous these days going into a church -- particularly a Catholic church as I was most definitely not raised Catholic. Like I'm on unfamiliar ground and I might slip up at any step and wind up offending someone. Worse culture shock in a local church than I even had while living in Japan to be honest.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

CroBob_502578986

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POSTS: 104

Report this Sep. 09 2011, 11:30 pm

... Nobody's answering my questions.


Your mind is like a sword; It's easier to kill people when it's sharp.

OtakuJo

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Report this Sep. 09 2011, 11:33 pm

Quote: CroBob_502578986 @ Sep. 09 2011, 11:30 pm

>

>... Nobody's answering my questions.

>


It's only been a couple of hours, and as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong) none of the respondants so far are actually religious. Give it a day -- you might get an answer from someone. For my part I think the best kind of personal faith is that which can still accept diversity in others.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

CroBob_502578986

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Report this Sep. 09 2011, 11:38 pm

If you have no faith, why would you reply at all? And I'd agree the best kind of faith is one wherein you accept the faith of others, I simply don't empathize with it because I'm not religious. If someone argues that there's no such thing as Earth's moon, or that evolution is wrong, or that there are no techtonic plates, I'm going to argue with them, because they're wrong. That doesn't happen with religious faith, which makes me believe that people don't REALLY believe their faith is true, they just really hope it is and then avoid thinking about it critically. I could be wrong, of course.

OtakuJo

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Report this Sep. 10 2011, 1:44 am

If you have no faith, why would you reply at all?


Because I found myself with something to say. No harm in that. When there's nothing to say, I won't. But I don't think of myself as having "no faith", in any case.


If someone argues that there's no such thing as Earth's moon, or that evolution is wrong, or that there are no techtonic plates, I'm going to argue with them, because they're wrong.


Sure there's a Moon? You ever been there? I've never been to New York, and I'm pretty well convinced that it doesn't exist.


Well, okay. Not really.


I would argue too although they're welcome to believe whatever they like. The lessons of faith I think reflect a dissonance between love for humanity on the one hand and a drive to conform on the other. I find that literalists are more likely to gravitate towards the latter of these options. People who accept others are those who have secure faith in their religion, but at the same time who are more willing to look to the core of their lessons than to hang onto the literality of smaller details.


That doesn't happen with religious faith, which makes me believe that people don't REALLY believe their faith is true, they just really hope it is and then avoid thinking about it critically.


There may be an element of that, but also if a person is raised with one world-view, it then becomes very difficult to shake it. I think too that people (some people at least) might be more willing to listen to alternative arguments if they weren't delivered from the position of "You're being stupid." People can get very belligerent when they see their cultural foundations being under threat -- as no doubt you know.


Give it a day you might get more responses from other people.


 


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

lnagr1

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Report this Sep. 10 2011, 1:51 am

Faith is a good thing to have. Anyway to bussiness, Is there a general chat thread around here anymore?


konarciq

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Report this Sep. 10 2011, 6:03 am

And that brings me to something else; If you think that your religious faith is correct, then why do you "tolerate" other faiths? I mean, I wouldn't expect you to go on street corners and shove pamphlets down people's throats, but if your faith is correct other people's faith are necessarily NOT correct, if their religion is different from yours. So how do you stand idly by and not try to correct the mistakes those other people must be making? And if you have no reason to suppose they're actually wrong, then how can you presume you're actually correct?


I can of course only speak for myself, but I think the basic idea is that forcing your "corrections" down other people's throat is not very effective. Rather the opposite: being told that something you believed in all your life is wrong has a tendency to make you belligerent and defensive. It might get you thinking and reevaluating your own beliefs, yes, but it's done by a negative inducement.


I do believe in a more subtle approach: mutually sharing and discussing one's beliefs with those who believe something else. And that goes both for people from other religions and for darwinists and those of similar and different scientific views. Simply to try and understand how the other thinks and reasons, and then contemplating my own views and "testing" them against theirs. Of course I don't know if my discussion partner has the same goal, but I'd rather he'd come to the conclusion by himself that perhaps my faith has some merits, than him being coaxed or bullied into it against his will and his reason.


You could compare it with calling the belief a hypothesis, since belief is based on a theory that one has reason to believe to be true, but that hasn't been proven yet. And this hypothesis is being tested with every new individual that gives me insights in different ways of thinking - hypotheses different from mine.


The main difference with science is - I think - that religious people are willing to accept that their beliefs ("hypotheses", if you like) are unlikely to be proven in their lifetime, and therefore continually require an amount of faith in those things that have not been physically proven.


And do I think my faith is actually correct? That it represents reality accurately?


I cannot say for certain - for faith does require a certain amount of... well, faith. But from what I have seen in the world, I find there is a lot to support it. Mind you, there are also things that don't seem to support it. And that is why I keep searching and hoping to gain new insights from people with different views. You never know where the missing pieces of the puzzle might turn up.


But yes - for now, my beliefs and my faith as it has developed over the years give the most accurate representation of reality as I know it. I have yet to come across a hypothesis that explains it better. (Or a person who can explain his hypothesis better than I have been witness to so far.)


Whether it is 100% correct? Seeing how many different views and beliefs there are in the world, the laws of probability would estimate that chance to be fairly small. Perhaps even negligible.


Anyway, I doubt I'll find out before I'm dead. But that doesn't stop me from trying to figure it out!


If there is nothing wrong with me, then maybe there´s something wrong with the universe? -Dr. Crusher

rocketscientist

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Report this Sep. 10 2011, 9:17 am

Here we go again.


I'm definitely sitting this thread out for personal reasons. 


Plus, I've got two new angels from heaven to take care of and they take a lot of time.


And, in any case, I think I've made my feelings on these subjects pretty clear in other posts. 


Good luck everyone.  Try not to be too mean to each other.  I hope it stays clean, but, somehow, it wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't. 


 


KHAAAAAAANNNNNN!!!!!

DS9TREK

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Report this Sep. 10 2011, 4:39 pm

Quote: CroBob_502578986 @ Sep. 09 2011, 11:38 pm

>

>If someone argues that there's no such thing as Earth's moon, or that evolution is wrong, or that there are no techtonic plates, I'm going to argue with them, because they're wrong. That doesn't happen with religious faith, which makes me believe that people don't REALLY believe their faith is true, they just really hope it is and then avoid thinking about it critically. I could be wrong, of course.

>


Have you ever seen The Genius of Charles Darwin? Richard Dawkins tries to teach evolution to a group of religious year 11 students (that's 15/16 year olds). Even after providing evidence he gets responses like "I believe my religion so when I read about evolution I can't understand it". But the most telling was:


"I was brought to believe [in creationism]" says one girl.


"Is that a good reason to believe something?" asks the good professor.


"Yeah because I went to church when I was little."


"But in the Hindu sacred scriptures it says something different doesn't it?" he counters.


"They're brought up to believe that."


"So everyone should believe what they're told to believe even if they contradict each other?"


"It's really up to you what you believe" says another girl.


For me that exchange really answers your questions and confirms your idea that in the cases of many their faith can't withstand any pressure from critical thought.

CroBob_502578986

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Report this Sep. 11 2011, 7:17 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>

>... Nobody's answering my questions.

>

aaaw poor baby no one is answering your question....lol I wrote a whole article about this and as I was about to click on it, it erased some how; so no I am not going to add my say to this it will just get me mad and I did a whole bunch of research too it too.


You're cute, how about some coffee later?


Your mind is like a sword; It's easier to kill people when it's sharp.

CroBob_502578986

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POSTS: 104

Report this Sep. 11 2011, 7:20 am

Quote: lnagr1 @ Sep. 10 2011, 1:51 am

>Faith is a good thing to have.


Why?


Your mind is like a sword; It's easier to kill people when it's sharp.

CroBob_502578986

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POSTS: 104

Report this Sep. 12 2011, 3:13 am

Firstly, I'm way hotter.


Secondly, you're a lair.

Dralek

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POSTS: 224

Report this Sep. 12 2011, 10:09 am

Quote: CroBob_502578986 @ Sep. 09 2011, 9:01 pm

>

>I personally have no faith at all. If I believe something, it's because I have some reason or another to think the thing I think is actually true, and if I wind up being wrong I simply alter what I think to more accurately represent reality. However, this makes me curious about people who do have faith. When I have no reason to think something is true, I don't. Now, I'm not going to ask why you think your faith is true, more like I'm asking do you even think that? Do you believe that your religious faith is actually correct? Does your faith accurately represent reality, the way it actually is?

>I'm pagan, and my "faith" can basically be boiled down to respect and love for others added to a deep regard for the natural world and our role in relation to it.  So I'd have to answer yes, it represents reality, at least from my perspective.   

>And that brings me to something else; If you think that your religious faith is correct, then why do you "tolerate" other faiths? I mean, I wouldn't expect you to go on street corners and shove pamphlets down people's throats, but if your faith is correct other people's faith are necessarily NOT correct, if their religion is different from yours. So how do you stand idly by and not try to correct the mistakes those other people must be making? And if you have no reason to suppose they're actually wrong, then how can you presume you're actually correct?

>That's another beautiful thing about being a pagan.  We tend to look at other faiths as different streams flowing to the same destination.  Book, the shepherd on the short-lived series "Firefly" once said, "You don't fix faith, it fixes you."

> 

>In science, when there's an investigation into how reality works, hypotheses are made, tests are done, and a scientific consencus is eventually reached. That's how we know the method is actually working, the people who test it agree that this or that is, objectively, how reality works. Religion, on the other hand, is doing nothing except growing more and more diverse. So is there no dissonance to you? How can you believe that something is objectively true, yet have no problem with someone thinking something contrary is just as true? Do you not desire to look into it more deeply, to learn more about it, and determine who's actually correct?

>Not really.  People are obsessed with being the best, the fastest, the smartest and folks love obsessing over who is right...especially when they feel they can beat someone else over the head with their correctness and feel superior in some abstract way.  If there is one thing science has shown us, it is that the more we know, the more we don't know.  Perhaps at some point science will progress to the point where it can prove or disprove faith.  I'll not lose sleep over it, that day (if it comes) will be long after this body is no longer inhabited.  Instead of focusing on being right or wrong, I'm content just being.

>Edited because I don't have spellcheck up.

>

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