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Did ST:Enterprise kill good Star Trek?

Sora

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2606

Report this Sep. 19 2011, 6:31 am

Quote: Tureaz'47 @ Sep. 18 2011, 8:11 pm

Quote: Tidus79001 @ Sep. 14 2011, 6:31 am

Quote: HisRoyalHighnessTheKing @ Sep. 14 2011, 3:47 am

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>VOY killed good Trek

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>ENT just continued the trend.

>Trek on UPN was a creative disaster.

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Voyager did more to get Star Trek back to it roots than any of the other series.  The Next Generation was boring, Deep Space Nine was Star Trek in name only.

Anyone who wants to say that Star Trek: Voyager fans are a different type of fans, less relevant fans, or an inferior sort of fan is dead wrong. Star Trek: Voyager fans are the fans who like the vision of Star Trek the way that Gene Roddenberry originally envisioned it.  These writers have shown the highest integrity as writer by making these decision to be true not only to Star Trek, but to themselves as writers seeking a challenge instead of seeking a easy safe route (it is offensive to hear anyone who would criticize people who are brave enough to show this creativity & seek these type of challenges).

I often hear Next Generation fans & Deep Space Nine fans bash Voyager fans as being a different type to Star Trek. Deep Space Nine was the most non Star Trek series of all, but those fans don't seem to notice that.  Sometimes I wonder if they ever have even watched Star Trek: The Original Series (I know that I have met a few of them who haven't, and base all of they know about Star Trek on the Next Generation fans & Deep Space Nine, or a few said they didn’t watch it because it wasn’t “The Next Generation” enough).  For one I am personally glad the Voyager was TNG-lite since TNG often seems to be “Star Trek Lite”.

It seems like a lot of Next Generation fans & Deep Space Nine fans don't want to consider the Star Trek: The Original Series, or Star Trek: Voyager to be real Star Trek since it doesn't meet their personal likes of what they want in Star Trek.

The Next Generation was too touchy-feely for me (*puke*).  If I wanted to see people explore the inner depths of their emotions I would watch a soap opera!  They never really explored much & seemed to only want to just frolic around on the holodeck, or when they weren't doing that they were ferrying diplomats all over the galaxy.   Week after week of encountering the same alien races did become a bit stale & boring (the original series & Voyager were constantly encountering new races).  Don't get me wrong I don't hate The Next Generation, but I never felt attached to it & I do credit it for making a substantial contribution to the Star Trek universe.

Voyager breathed new life into the Star Trek universe by unquestionably getting back to the basics of Roddenberry’s ideals "To explore strange new worlds” & “To seek out new life and new civilizations” & “To boldly go where no man has gone before".

Michael Piller who was one of the three executive producers of Voyager made this statement in the "Braving The Unknown" bonus feature that was included with the Voyager Season 1 DVD’s:

"We made it very clear that what appealed to us about that idea was that it took us back to the basics of Roddenberry's original idea that it’s a group of people in a ship alone in the unknown facing who knows what…”

“…the idea really was to go back and challenge ourselves as writers, to come up with the kind of material and face the kind of challenges that Roddenberry had to face when he created the original Star Trek”

Jeri Taylor also said about the following about creation of Voyager on the "Braving The Unknown" bonus feature:

“We felt the need to create an avenue for new and fresh storytelling.  We are forced into creating a new universe.  We have to come up with new aliens, we have to come up with new situations, and this makes it a great challenge for us, but we really felt it was the way to be the truest to the ideals of star Trek

George Takei in interview published 11/20/2007 for iF Magazine said:

“When Gene Roddenbery passed, that really was the end of STAR TREK, as we knew it.  The series that came on immediately after was DEEP SPACE NINE, which was the polar opposite of Gene’s philosophy and vision of the future…”

The final 2 seasons of Enterprise were quite good in my opinion.  Currently in the Enterprise boos they are telling the story of the Romulan War.  I have found these books to be extremely well written. Reading these books make me realize how much we lost out on when they cancelled Enterprise & cut short by 3 years.  These books really show there were so many good stories left to be told about the Enterprise NX-02 & Archer's crew.

I would have really enjoyed seeing the "Romulan War" storyline that is in the books be done as episodes during the final 3 seasons that were cut short from Enterprise.

Yeah!

Voyager was the series that brought me back to ST.


Yeah there's no sense in bashing Voyager. But there's no sense in bashing DS9 either. DS9 was GREAT Star Trek like it or not. It did something different yes, but that makes it no less valid or good.


I love Voyager too. But it did have some problems. There's just no getting around that.


Alot of people don't consider Voyager being like TOS because it's not.


TOS was about exploring the unknown. Voyager is about trying to get home. It's not the same thing.


Yes I realize they were trying to do something new with Voyager and they did. But Voyager was in the Delta Quadrent on accident. In order to make Voyager like TOS, the ship should've been a science vessel sent to the Delta Quadrent by Starfleet on purpose to explore it, determine what all is there and report their findings to starfleet.


But Voyager's purpose was to get home. The exploring the Delta Quadrent was simply unavoidable due to then having to travel through it.


And there was nothing wrong with Voyager's premise. And I myself have nothing wrong with the way Voyager was done. But I do understand why some people have a problem with it.


Alot of the stories in Voyager could've been told on TNG, and people got bored with that. Some people felt that the characters really didn't develop very much.


Some felt that they didn't endure enough hardship.


The Eqinox, and the crew of the Equinox is more of what the majority would've liked. Seeing the ship gradually fall apart over time. Seeing Starfleet officers having to behave like criminals to survive.


Overall, the majority felt that Voyager just played it safe. They always managed to find more power sources in an unknown quadrent that knew nothing of their technology. Very convenient.


The ship for the most part never took any serious damage, and when it did it was always easily repaired.


I'm not trying to bash Voyager by any means, just point out some reasons as to why it wasn't as well liked. I think they tried to fix all of those issues with Enterprise. Enterprise they really did deal with some major crap. And during season 3 the ship goes on for quite awhile heavily damaged with holes blown in it and what not. The only time we see that in Voyager is in year of hell, which was only 2 episodes and then made to where it never really happened. I always thought it would've been cool if Year of hell had been a large portion of season 4.


But again please don't misunderstand, I love Voyager, it's my 3rd favorite Series. I prefer it over TOS and TNG. Just pointing some things that could've made it even better.


Live Long and Prosper

Captain Jafo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 10

Report this Sep. 19 2011, 8:50 am

I was raised on TOS reruns and the Animated from early on. I was reluctant when TNG came out, but quickly fell totaly involved. The movies were always special outing days for my dad & i, and later with other trek friends, and although i agree that some would have made better 'episodes' rather than movies (then again there were several episodes that would have been perfect 'movies') I have enjoyed each and every one (even St 5, the search for god).    Deep Space 9 started slow for me as well as ST Voyager, but after buying them on dvd, I found a general fondness and appreciation for them both. When Enterprise was premiering, i was in my happy spot. I had convinced my wife over the years to just give in to my trekdom, and she had conceeded to give it a wirl too. We sat down with popped corn and ale, turned phones off and were prepped for opening night. When the show began...my immediate response was "what the hell is this opening song, what did we steal it from Baywatch?? *&%$#!"   Then the opening scene with a very ridged forehead klingon and i was shouting like i do on football sundays..."you cant have that type of klingon in a prequel, look aat trouble with tribles, they didnt look anything like that till later on !!  &*^#!"   Well, needless to say, my wife thought i had lost my mind and we turned it OFF.   It wasnt until recently, after attending Las Vegas con and meeting some of the cast, that i said (promised) i  would give another chance. An episodde here and there and with this website too, I have seen a vast number of the episodes/show. Honestly...its not that bad, actualy kinda like it. I could pick apart some flaws, but, I still think i will buy it too.    I answer to your question though....... YES, i think ultimately it killed star trek. Avid trekies i think were turned off by it (at first), and it was to simular to some attempt at a different type of Sea Quest or Babalon5 to really attract new viewers, and the powers that own tv/movies, decided to kill the star trek concept until recently. Now wiith the 'reboot', they hope to capitalize on a new crowd, and string along the old fans as a carrot dangling to satisfy the trek void. (although i did like the movie...mostly for the subtle little things tha at least proved somebody did some homework before making it)..but unlike the first hulk travisty of a movie (as compared to the tv hulk series {loved}and the ed norton version {liked}) i was glad it gave us a new hope for trek too keep on going.

Sora

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2606

Report this Sep. 19 2011, 11:16 am

Quote: Captain Jafo @ Sep. 19 2011, 8:50 am

>

>I was raised on TOS reruns and the Animated from early on. I was reluctant when TNG came out, but quickly fell totaly involved. The movies were always special outing days for my dad & i, and later with other trek friends, and although i agree that some would have made better 'episodes' rather than movies (then again there were several episodes that would have been perfect 'movies') I have enjoyed each and every one (even St 5, the search for god).    Deep Space 9 started slow for me as well as ST Voyager, but after buying them on dvd, I found a general fondness and appreciation for them both. When Enterprise was premiering, i was in my happy spot. I had convinced my wife over the years to just give in to my trekdom, and she had conceeded to give it a wirl too. We sat down with popped corn and ale, turned phones off and were prepped for opening night. When the show began...my immediate response was "what the hell is this opening song, what did we steal it from Baywatch?? *&%$#!"   Then the opening scene with a very ridged forehead klingon and i was shouting like i do on football sundays..."you cant have that type of klingon in a prequel, look aat trouble with tribles, they didnt look anything like that till later on !!  &*^#!"   Well, needless to say, my wife thought i had lost my mind and we turned it OFF.   It wasnt until recently, after attending Las Vegas con and meeting some of the cast, that i said (promised) i  would give another chance. An episodde here and there and with this website too, I have seen a vast number of the episodes/show. Honestly...its not that bad, actualy kinda like it. I could pick apart some flaws, but, I still think i will buy it too.    I answer to your question though....... YES, i think ultimately it killed star trek. Avid trekies i think were turned off by it (at first), and it was to simular to some attempt at a different type of Sea Quest or Babalon5 to really attract new viewers, and the powers that own tv/movies, decided to kill the star trek concept until recently. Now wiith the 'reboot', they hope to capitalize on a new crowd, and string along the old fans as a carrot dangling to satisfy the trek void. (although i did like the movie...mostly for the subtle little things tha at least proved somebody did some homework before making it)..but unlike the first hulk travisty of a movie (as compared to the tv hulk series {loved}and the ed norton version {liked}) i was glad it gave us a new hope for trek too keep on going.

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Well I can say I enjoy all the films too, and I love Star Trek V! It's hilarious and it's awesome!


I still disagree that Enterprise killed Star Trek.


Your comment about the Klingons, I have a couple of comments,


1. the only reason Klingons were the way they were in TOS was because they couldn't do them the way they wanted in the 60's and we all knew that. Some of us could forgive that and move on.


2. Did you not think they would ever explain it? They do explain it in Season 4. I don't know if you've seen all the episodes or not but they do explain it.


3. I understand that we're all fans and we're passionate, but ultimately it is just a tv series. Why couldn't people just enjoy it because it was Star Trek?


But I'm glad you're enjoying it now. And yes you are right, people were turned off by it at first. But I do think Enterprise is more liked now. I think it's grown on alot of people now. Once it got canceled, people decided to give it more of a chance.


Live Long and Prosper

Matthias Russell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7705

Report this Sep. 19 2011, 1:31 pm

Quote: Sora @ Sep. 19 2011, 6:13 am

Quote: Matthias Russell @ Sep. 18 2011, 7:33 pm

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>I thought it was dumb when the Ferengi were encountered in ENT and how some species seem different between series.  However, we've watched 200 years of history in 40 years. 

>Many of the early historical explores encountered individuals from peoples or heard rumors of peoples long before regular and official contact was made.  A society can change A LOT in 100 or 200 years.  Many ancient tribal peoples sailed far from their native islands. 

>Is it really so hard to believe that a stray Ferengi had an independant encounter with humans 200 years before Picard?  Is it hard to believe Vulcans changed a lot in 100 years?  Perhaps.  Some of those instances have been head scratchers to me but we have many parellels in our history which show these are not stretches of the imagination.

>Enterprise could have used another year of preproduction before launching, but its first 2 seasons are FAR better than the first 2 of TNG, DS9 and VOY.  What prevents people from seeing that is bias, plain and simple.

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I can definitely agree with you on Season 1 and 2 of Enterprise being much better than the start of the other series. However was Season 2 of Voyager so bad? I find Season 1 and Season 3 far weaker than Season 2?

I'm curious, what do you think of Season 3 and 4 of Enterprise? You stated Season 1 and 2 were better than Season 1 and 2 for the TNG, DS9 and Voyager. Honestly I feel that Season 3 for Enterprise was also the best 3rd season. Season 4 also the best 4th season. Now Season 4 is much harder to pick because DS9 really picked up speed in it's 4th season as did Voyager. But overall Season 4 of Enterprise was really good.



I loved season 4 except for the final episode that had no redeemable aspects to me. I appreciated all the links to TOS they had with Orions, augments, mirror universe, and tholians. ENT really scored and matured that season.

I hated season 3 for being a play on the war on terror and being too heavy on time travel and alternate realities, but when I rewatched it, I really did appreciate some gems in there; it was very original and thought provoking. I stl consider season 3 a low point, though.

Sora

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2606

Report this Sep. 20 2011, 12:40 pm

Quote: Matthias Russell @ Sep. 19 2011, 1:31 pm

Quote: Sora @ Sep. 19 2011, 6:13 am

Quote: Matthias Russell @ Sep. 18 2011, 7:33 pm

>

>

>I thought it was dumb when the Ferengi were encountered in ENT and how some species seem different between series.  However, we've watched 200 years of history in 40 years. 

>Many of the early historical explores encountered individuals from peoples or heard rumors of peoples long before regular and official contact was made.  A society can change A LOT in 100 or 200 years.  Many ancient tribal peoples sailed far from their native islands. 

>Is it really so hard to believe that a stray Ferengi had an independant encounter with humans 200 years before Picard?  Is it hard to believe Vulcans changed a lot in 100 years?  Perhaps.  Some of those instances have been head scratchers to me but we have many parellels in our history which show these are not stretches of the imagination.

>Enterprise could have used another year of preproduction before launching, but its first 2 seasons are FAR better than the first 2 of TNG, DS9 and VOY.  What prevents people from seeing that is bias, plain and simple.

>

I can definitely agree with you on Season 1 and 2 of Enterprise being much better than the start of the other series. However was Season 2 of Voyager so bad? I find Season 1 and Season 3 far weaker than Season 2?

I'm curious, what do you think of Season 3 and 4 of Enterprise? You stated Season 1 and 2 were better than Season 1 and 2 for the TNG, DS9 and Voyager. Honestly I feel that Season 3 for Enterprise was also the best 3rd season. Season 4 also the best 4th season. Now Season 4 is much harder to pick because DS9 really picked up speed in it's 4th season as did Voyager. But overall Season 4 of Enterprise was really good.

I loved season 4 except for the final episode that had no redeemable aspects to me. I appreciated all the links to TOS they had with Orions, augments, mirror universe, and tholians. ENT really scored and matured that season. I hated season 3 for being a play on the war on terror and being too heavy on time travel and alternate realities, but when I rewatched it, I really did appreciate some gems in there; it was very original and thought provoking. I stl consider season 3 a low point, though.


I understand like 98% of fans hate the final episode of Enterprise. I for one LOVED it. But I'm huge Riker and Jonathan Frakes fan. And I loved seeing Riker again. Even though TNG is not my favorite Trek series, Riker is one of my all time favorite characters. Plus season 7 of TNG is my favorite season, and I love the Pegasus, so everything about These are The Voyages was great to me.


Plus it wasn't JUST the finale to Enterprise, but it was the finale to 18 years of constant Star Trek and Rick Berman's take on Star Trek. That's why I'm really disappointed that the finale was only a one hour and not a two hour. All the other series got two hour finale's.


Live Long and Prosper

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