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Homosexual Character(s) In Star Trek?

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Created by: Zaltar

lostshaker

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POSTS: 2293

Report this Aug. 10 2011, 3:14 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

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>"One must also consider the Vulcan mind meld. It is a far more intimate act than sex. Spock noted that he and his father never chose to meld, but men mind melding with other men is clearly on the table. T'Pol and T'Pau melded in ENT. Kirk and Sarek melded in TSFS. Think of all the personal information that's being shared. And not only are you sharing your own information, but the personal information from others (who've undergone mind melding with that same person) is being shared too (brings new meaning to a child catching their parents in bed)."""-------

>MInd melding is no doubt exceptionally intimate. But its intimacy is not a human intimacy in particular. Vulcans can mind meld with any being that has some degree of intelligence and feeling. Vulcans have mind melded with creatures that have no face, head, eyes, ears, legs and arms. The intimacy you are refering to is not an intimacy of human beings. It is an intimacy between beings which have reached a minimum of intellectual and emotional ability. This does not justify calling it a homosexual (or heterosexual) act. It is not sexual. Its commonality with sex is that they both require some degree of intimacy. So does poetry, music etc.

>Although Padme and anakin were not the greatest pair, I do not believe anakin and Obi won would have been a better choice.   

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I'm not defining the mind meld strictly as a heterosexual or homosexual act, though it can certainly fall within the parameters both literally and metaphorically. Literally, although it isn't a human to human form of intimacy, it isn't negated from being a Vulcan-Human form of intimacy. For example, Trip & T'Pol, Sarek & Amanda. The mind meld is as versatile, if not more, as the act of sex, which can be anything from personal to ambivalent -- like the mind meld. The mind meld has been portrayed in both instances - it's whatever the writer needs it for. Star Trek has always been metaphorical and allusive to the human condition. As I pointed to earlier, it can be a mind meld, a Trill symbiont, or a Tri-Gendered species like the one portrayed in ENT's "Cogenitor".


There's always going to be "deviancy" within any society. I'm sure there are human couples petitioning Vulcans to initiate three-way mind melds.


I was being satirical with regards to Anakin, Padme, and Obi-Wan, as homosexuality is obviously not meant to be in their characters.

DutchPicard

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Report this Aug. 10 2011, 3:49 pm

Just imaganing a homo sexual captain saying:


 


"How long till we eneter the wormhole"


 


Would be kinda distracting

lligevets

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Report this Aug. 10 2011, 3:59 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

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class="MsoNormal"> 

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>  How on earth could ALL of the recruits he entered BASIC TRAINING with know he was gay???  

class="MsoNormal"> 

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My guess would be that Andrew was the First openly and legal gay man in his unit. 

ser.howson

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Report this Aug. 10 2011, 4:11 pm

Quote: iBorg13 @ Aug. 08 2011, 12:17 am

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>A homosexual character could be interesting, but I completely agree with OtakuJo, don't make their defining attribute the fact that they're gay.
Also, don't center all the stories revolving around them about their gay relations. Some of them, sure, but don't go over the top.
The writers should show that in the future, humanity has no problem whatsoever with sexuality and barely notice if someone is gay or not. Similar to the way today that no one notices or really cares what colour you are (in most cases and places).

>


#cosign

lostshaker

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Report this Aug. 10 2011, 4:23 pm

Now an Orion Starship full of green hunnies is my cup of tea


Jack, you've just pitched the first premise for a Star Trek show to ever be on these boards that is brilliant.

Ezri Janeway

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Report this Aug. 10 2011, 5:42 pm

Quote: DS9TREK @ Aug. 08 2011, 3:15 pm

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>I'm surprised homosexuality is still an issue to anyone. Next we'll have a thread asking whether Star Trek should have a mixed race couple.

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Excellent post.


"Let me see if Ive got this straight. You're risking the ship, the crew, and the mission on the assumptions that Helkara and Leishman are engineering geniuses, Tharp is a piloting savant, our transporter chief can work miracles, and the Breen are unwilling to sacrifice themselves in a kamikaze attack?" "Yup." "Damn I LOVE this job."

ruledo

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Report this Aug. 10 2011, 8:21 pm

I'm with DS9Trek!!

OtakuJo

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Report this Aug. 10 2011, 8:39 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

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>If you are going to call the mind meld a metaphorical form of sex, than would it not be appropriate to call it an AN ACT OF RAPE?? No, I insist! If you are going to declare the mind meld a metaphorical form of sex based on it's versatility, than we can not deny that it is AN ACT OF RAPE as well. Are you condoning rape on the enterprise?? Now I know that you will not condone such foolishness.

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I would say that in some cases where the mind-meld is performed without consent, the way it is represented could well be akin to some form of assault.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

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Report this Aug. 10 2011, 8:41 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

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>There were no gays in Starfleet. The were expected to reproduce and the transporter "cured' all gayness.

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Why would they do that? There's nothing to cure.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

lostshaker

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Report this Aug. 10 2011, 10:16 pm

I am not sure how you are using the term "versatile" when you refer to the mind meld.


I thought I already explained it, but I'll try from another angle. The mind meld has been used as a plot device, whether that be as a tool for information gathering or a metaphor for sex.


The purpose of a mind meld is not enjoyment or the expression of love. It has a very practical purpose for the crew and the TOS writers. Now obviously you are a fan of the post TNG type. That is not something I care for or would pay much attention to. I'm a TOS and TNG guy, sorry for being out of touch.


You're apparently just as much out of touch with TOS, which I'm a huge fan of myself, where the use of a mind meld for sex was established - free of anything TNG or post TNG. Consider the following from "Dagger of the Mind":


Spock: It's a hidden, personal thing to the Vulcan people, part of our private lives."


I wonder what Spock could mean by private lives? But oh, we get to find out in "Amok Time"!


Kirk: Marriage party? You said T'Pring was your wife.


Spock: By our parents' arrangement. A ceremony while we were but seven years of age. Less than a marriage but more than a betrothal. One touches the other in order to feel each other's thoughts. In this way our minds were locked together, so that at the proper time, we would both be drawn to the Koon-ut-kal-if-fee (marriage or challenge).


Spock's description sounds a lot like a mind meld to me, and it clearly places it in the context of picking a mate, which for the sake of logic, boils down to sex.


Sadly, your mind meld has been narrowed down to sex...


No, I'm just as content with Spock mind melding with a Horta or storing his katra in McCoy for safe keeping, whatever a mind meld can cleverly be used for. But I'm not going to be thick and dismissive of what a writer is clearly using it for.


If you are going to call the mind meld a metaphorical form of sex, than would it not be appropriate to call it an AN ACT OF RAPE?


A mind meld could certainly fall into the category of rape depending upon the context. ENT portrayed such a context. However, defaulting to TOS, which is clearly your preference, Star Trek VI: TUC would be the example to cite. Valeris clearly resisted Spock's attempt to mind meld, and she was clearly traumatized by Spock forcing himself upon her. Spock already defined the mind meld as an intimate act, and yet he did it in the presence of a bridge crew. That is brutal. I don't condone what Spock did, seemed largely unncessarily since they ended up getting the information from Sulu.


When we speak on this board of homosexuality we are not speaking metaphorically we are speaking literally (as in characters that are "OUT").


Yeah, but Trek doesn't work on purely a literal level. But I did offer Jadzia Dax as an example of someone who put it out there. And it was apparently such a non-issue in the Trek Universe that it flew over the heads of most viewers.


Huh? I'm afraid you lost me on this one as well. Are you saying that It's LITERALLY a form of sex but only when between different races?? The use of your terms "negation" and "literally" in the same sentence baffles me. You are saying it is literally true because it's not negated?? Thats like saying God literally exists because he can not be negated. 


Actually, I apologize on this one. I had one thought, went to write it one way, then changed it at the last moment and didn't quite erase the previous thought in its entirety. Been having trouble with my mouse and highlighting. So let me try again. Mind Melds can't be used for sex from human to human, because humans aren't capable of initiating mind melds. But mind melds can be employed from a Vulcan to Human, as demonstrated on numerous occasions. So a mind meld could double as a form of sex in a Vulcan-Human relationship.


 


 


 


 

lostshaker

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Report this Aug. 10 2011, 10:23 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Aug. 10 2011, 8:41 pm

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>There were no gays in Starfleet. The were expected to reproduce and the transporter "cured' all gayness.

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Why would they do that? There's nothing to cure.


This is where I'd like greater exploration, either on the part of Star Trek or by individuals with the courage to challenge themselves. I won't say cure, but cause. A great deal of preliminary evidence suggests that homosexuality is caused by non-fermented soy additives in processed food. Soy is such a big industry though that few are willing to explore the possibility, and a great many more are threatened by it.

OtakuJo

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Report this Aug. 10 2011, 11:39 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

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>This is where I'd like greater exploration, either on the part of Star Trek or by individuals with the courage to challenge themselves. I won't say cure, but cause. A great deal of preliminary evidence suggests that homosexuality is caused by non-fermented soy additives in processed food. Soy is such a big industry though that few are willing to explore the possibility, and a great many more are threatened by it.

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Regardless, Starfleet would want it's personnel to reproduce and would filter out homosexuality in the transporter. People applying 2011 ideas and opinions about this are ridiculous.


Really? Is that more or less ridiculous than applying 1911 ideas and opinions? Homosexuality has not been a part of any diagnostic manual for decades and defining it as an undesirable deviation, illness or defect is based on a long-outdated view of "medicine". And the Federation is supposed to be based on the Evolution of society, not its Devolution.


Firstly, it's completely illogical: If they're so desperate to have people breed, the Federation could just as easily achieve the same results through sperm and egg donation and some 24th century equivalent of IVF. Secondly, it goes against every principle of the Federation, "evolved" humanity, sexual freedom, and IDIC.


Homosexuality caused by non-fermented soy? W-the? Where in the world is that coming from?


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

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Report this Aug. 10 2011, 11:59 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

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>Lost shaker

>You are like otaku, you slip through words trying to produce false outcomes.

>[...]

>You need to hang with otaku. Some people are just so close minded.

>


Again you prove that you know next to nothing about me and have no basis whatever on which to draw these unfounded conclusions about my character.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

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Report this Aug. 11 2011, 1:02 am

Humanity's attitude to homosexuality is very culturally defined. The Greeks tended to look on adult homosexual relationships as a teeny bit odd, (in the sense of eccentric) but not morally repulsive in the way that -- for example -- 19th century Europeans did. Evidence points to a primarily genetic cause, and indeed there are strong indications that a majority of our population may be, in varying measures, bisexual.


Now, at this point, we should get one thing clear: Many suggestions of representing homosexual characters in Star Trek TV series is not about changing the personalities of various existing characters. If we can find a way past the risk of tokenism (a very real risk, like it or not) then there is no earthly reason why Star Trek could not portray an openly gay character in some future series or other.


I don't know if the Greeks "invented bum f'ing" any more than they invented poetry, athletics, or any other thing that was most likely around for centuries before, but they (or at least the Athenians) certainly incorporated it to a large extent into their culture.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

DS9TREK

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Report this Aug. 11 2011, 4:28 am

Quote: lostshaker @ Aug. 10 2011, 10:23 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Aug. 10 2011, 8:41 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

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>There were no gays in Starfleet. The were expected to reproduce and the transporter "cured' all gayness.

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Why would they do that? There's nothing to cure.

This is where I'd like greater exploration, either on the part of Star Trek or by individuals with the courage to challenge themselves. I won't say cure, but cause. A great deal of preliminary evidence suggests that homosexuality is caused by non-fermented soy additives in processed food. Soy is such a big industry though that few are willing to explore the possibility, and a great many more are threatened by it.


Right... soy makes you gay. So what caused the well documented homosexuality that in Europe for the thousands of years before any European had heard of soy?

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