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I wouldn't but not because I have anything against Islam per say but because I don't believe that religion should have a say in our lives.  I believe in instilling a sense of civil obediance but not under the theat of any particular religious group.

You make him sound like some kind of cosmic deoderant.

Speaking as a woman, I would not want to live under Sharia law. However, if I chose to go to one of those countries, I would find out as much as I could about it and accept it -- as it is that other country and that other culture I am in. I do think that we should stand up for those women whose rights are being violated in the Middle East, through petitions and letters and any way we can. Particularly as to challenge the injustices of their own culture is their right, and they deserve our support.

Indeed. I'm looking at the issue through my eyes; that being, the eyes of a female. And I totally agree with the point that to impose Western cultural norms on a society where everyone (although I do stress, everyone) has rejected them -- or, for that matter, where the only interests that are being protected are ours -- is wrong.

Quite a bit more complicated than the following, so I will speak rather simply at this moment. However... If a lady says, "Hang on. I really don't need your help to be happy in my life." then that's fine. Malaysian muslim girls in New Zealand, for example, choose to wear their headscarves and to sit separate from the guys in meetings, and to observe all those cultural norms. I suspect it's the same in Malaysia although I've never been there.

But say on the other extreme you have a lady in Pakistan who is about to be tried for adultery, because someone raped her to get back at her husband for something... If it were me in that position I imagine I'd be terrified as hell, would probably feel quite trapped and alone, and be wishing that someone somewhere might be willing and able at least to try and get me out of that situation. Or a girl who got infected with a horrible STD because my government had banned me from having the education that might have stopped it, and I was married at 13 to a guy who didn't give a crap about if I live or die. At some point, I doubt very much that I would want to feel like the world has abandoned me.

Fat lot of good it might do, but I would not stop from signing the petitions on issues like that -- I don't have the skill to organise protests or campaigns, but I would put my name to a petition. Certainly wouldn't stay silent just because the issue was too politicised.

But what I was really saying, for the same reason as I have great respect for the Suffragettes and '60s feminism; is that were there a grass-roots women's rights or other rights movement in some other country, I would be fully in favour of that and I would most definitely give to them what little I could in the way of moral support.

Same as, if I believe for one second that I could change the mentality of the huge and immoral corporations in this world, most certainly I would. For the record, I hate what they are doing and how a lot of them toy with the social, financial, mental and physical health of others, just to make profit for themselves!

And I have not, am not, and will not ever be an American woman. Not ever!

Speaking of sauce, is that your Mommy calling you for dinner?

absolutely not. i would die before i did that. 

are you efending sharia law to africa? do not compare apples and oranges.

Well as usual Otaku has oversimplified her argument. She is not looking at her position as ONE part of the many parts that contain our lives. She is also human, rich, young etc., But those points she ignores because they do not bring forthcoming premises to her desired end. She has never had the strength or fortitude necessary to think as an entire being.

What?

You make an awful lot of assumptions about me here -- particularly: "She has never had the strength or fortitude necessary to think as an entire being." On what, precisely do you base this gross over-generalisation, knowing next to nothing about me or how I think?

I am also Anglo-Celtic, university educated, a writer and autistic. (I am not however rich and there are times when I don't feel particularly young either.) In addition I have lived in three different countries, I speak two languages and can read and translate a third, and I love my cat. All these are aspects of my life which I accept with pride. But I did not mention them in my previous post because for the most part they are irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Then she says that she is against the law because of exceptional situations. She then used many unlikely situations as examples of unacceptable situations for the use of Sharia law. Well, if thats the case than reform Sharia law. Why do you need to end it?

Putting words in my mouth again. I acknowledge that these situations are extreme, but they do happen. I have not said one single time that the entire basis of the law was invalid. I said that as a woman I would not want to live under it, but if I were to go to one of the places which practise it, I would accept that because I would be in someone else's country. (Look it up -- it's only just a little earlier in this thread.)

I said that if soemone is perfectly happy twhere they are, then I'm happy for them, but I also said that in these extreme circumstances I would support the women involved. I did not say, Hey let's end Sharia law and impose Western law on other countries that do not want it. Not once -- and I know I did not say that because it is not something I believe.

Then she explains that she has great respect for the womens rights orgs. WEll I dont. They embody warfare and bitterness throughout their enitre organizations. Plenty of good books on this (they make al qeada look moderate).They fight a false image of man, and in the process destroy evrything in their path. They are also part and parcel ELITIST.

Which is precisely one reason why I have never identified as one of them. I don't believe in the demonisation of men, or of any mainstream for that matter. They also got women the vote, career options, and access to healthcare for themselves and their families.

And the early feminists were fighting against a system in which women were secondary citizens: They were silenced, allowed such limited options, prevented from participating in civil life, labelled as "Shrews" if they dared to speak their mind, (Was not long before that Shrews were essentially subjected to culturally-sanctioned torture.) and a litany of pseudo-medical "conditions" were invented to help society to brush aside the concerns of anyone who expressed her frustration at being in this position.

The Black Panther movement was also extreme, but you could argue that they faced very similar problems and achieved similar goals for black people in America.

Is she aware of how many women (and Men) get raped in africa?? Feel free people, anytime,... Ahh, but none of you wish to make your comments on africa, huh? Gigantic murder rates mixed with rape, drugs and AIDS makes for a topic a bit more REAL?

Yes. Rape is a horrible problem for people all over the world. This is important though: Talking about one set of issues is not equal to ignoring all others. But then of course what could a female possibly know about rape?

As a matter of fact for the past seven years I've been taking some money from my own meagre resources and sponsoring a young girl in Ethiopia. It was not an easy commitment to make, but I'm glad to have decided to do so because she seems like a fully awesome young lady. She's now eighteen years old and wants to be a doctor. I think that's the coolest thing ever and any chance I get to wish her luck in that endeavour, I shall.

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A couple more things:

Of course I simplified my arguments -- I had no choice but to do so, because to cover any issue effectively would take a thousand books. If you recall, I acknowledged on several occasions that the question was a far more complicated one than could be explored in detail on a forum such as this.

I have no problem with straying a little off topic, but one accusation you have levelled at me is that my post has focused on "Sharia Law". There is another simple reason to have done so: It is in the title of this thread, is it not?

"But I did not mention them in my previous post because for the most part they are irrelevant to the discussion at hand."--------NO they are very relevant.

You are thinking then that if I had mentioned such things before, that not one person would come back at me with the challenge of, "What's that got to do with the price of fish in China?" Possible, but I prefer to hedge my bets. I wear many hats in life, and for a person wanting to impose any fundamentalist law -- as it stands -- on my country [assuming such a thing were possible] then I would be willing to bet that to their mind, the "female" part of all that would supersede any education, skills, or professional aspirations I might or might not have.

Yes, there are more moderate versions; but those who would impose their beliefs on others do not tend to advocate moderation and compromise.

Yeah sure maybe your not anti-semitic, But the smart money says you are.

No it bloody well doesn't. 'Nuff said. Ding Ding Ding. End of story, and thankyou for playing.

Also, keep in mind that in certain parts of the country women had the right to vote until the early 19th century.

*Which country? Yours, mine, or someone else's?

*Who took it away from them? In many ways, that's worse.

"Yes. Rape is a horrible problem for people all over the world." ----No. Africa. Can you say Africa?? A-F-R-I-C-A!!! The whole continent is under a state of molestation that has no end in sight. And your worried about Sharia law?? Legalize sharia law throughout the whole world times 10, and you dont have anything close to the African genocides that often occur.

I am worried about a lot of things. Again, if someone says that they care about what is happening to an individual in one part of the world that does not mean that they are  unconcerned about what happens in another part of the world, like Africa.

What the hell do you expect me to do? Deny that it happens here, deny that it happens in Europe or Asia or anywhere else? Deny that any other places have problems?! Singlehandedly battle the ills of the world when I have neither the resources nor the skills to do so? Ignore people when they tell me that siging one little petition might help a person in trouble? Aren't I a horrible, horrible person for not being able to save the world?

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I didn't defend the expansion of Sharia Law because I don't believe that it is better than our own. And yes for the record I do believe in compromise where applicable. Never said otherwise. I've said that I would give whatever moral support I could to a grass-roots movement for women's rights in another country, for example. Or a general protest? That is not me imposing my values on other people from another culture. That is support for their movement.

To the question asked by this thread -- ie. Would I want these values to be imposed on me in New Zealand, and for my civil rights to be taken away as a result (Which would happen.) Absolutely not. So what would I defend? I don't want those laws to come here. It would mean the end of my civic rights. At the end of the day, to defend or advocate something, the first question is: What would this mean for you and me. For you, I don't know. For me though, I have no doubt the outcome would be bad.

Essentially this has all turned to arguing semantics again when our points of view are not even so different. I would however appreciate no more grandiosely uninformed assessments of my character, or ascribing beliefs and prejudices to me beyond those which I have ever expressed.

Tomorrow, then.

No, I would not.