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Seeing Voyager for first time

enhancesys

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POSTS: 503

Report this Jul. 12 2011, 4:48 pm

Hello, I am a Star Trek fan since the 70's.  I love (pretty much) all things Star Trek...the series, movies, video games, books, etc.  I have seen all episodes of TOS, TNG and Enterprise multiple times.  Loved'em all!


However, I did not like DS9 or Voyager.  I lasted about 1 and a half seasons on each and gave up on them when they originally showed on tv.  I've decided to tough it out and watch Voyager all the way through as I've heard both Voyager and DS9 vastly improved over time.  On Voyager, I just didn't like the characters the first time through.  Neelix and Kes were annoying.  Janeway too stiff.  Torres just went around getting angry.  Chakotay had no depth.  Kim was a wuss and Tim Russ played Tuvok too robotically.  The only characters I liked were the Doctor and Paris.


Anyway, I am up to Phage which is early in season 1.  Neelix's lungs were stolen and Kes donated him one.  Is this the last you hear of that?  Do they both go along as if they have both their lungs?


What pleasant surprises am I in store for for season 1?  Thanks!


Jim


 

willowtree

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POSTS: 1137

Report this Jul. 12 2011, 7:51 pm

well people can function with one lung. What would be the reason to continually bring it up? But I will say that yes, it will be mentioned later on again.


Kes leaves after season 3, and neelix becomes very sweet and caring. Many of the characters, especially B'Elanna grow very much


The first few seasons of Voyager are on the weaker side, but it gets soooo good starting season 4.

Nine of One

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POSTS: 135

Report this Jul. 12 2011, 7:59 pm

All I can say is...I felt the same way about Voyager when it first aired. My advice is to you is to keep watching...it does get better.


The characters also grow and become more interesting and less annoying, except for maybe Chakotay. I thought he was a real bore, which is a shame because there were moments when I thought he could have been a real bad ass. LOL


Janeway does loosen up a bit, and so does Tuvok of course it's not his fault that he's so stiff. He is Vulcan after all. Torres mellows out a little bit but only because she directs her anger towards Paris. LOL


It's funny, I love Robert Picardo as the doctor but I wasn't a huge fan of him in season 1. I was more of a B'Elanna Torres fan in Season 1. But as the characters grow and change so do my favorites for each season.


Enjoy the show.


"I'm a doctor, not a doorstop."

Doc Boomstick

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 178

Report this Jul. 14 2011, 7:04 pm

I could have done without Paris and Kim. Neither of them were the least bit interesting to me. I actually really liked Janeway and Tuvok quite a bit and I appreciated the Doctor as a unique character, even if he could be annoying at times. Torres bugged me. We were supposed to believe that being half Klingon means she couldn't control herself, but Worf is 100% Klingon and he could stay in line most of the time. Neelix was annoying. Kes was ok. I didn't hate Chakotay but he bounced back and forth between a badarse guerilla fighter and a big softie with no explanation. At some point he actually says something along the lines of the Maquis being wrong with no explanation as to how he arrived at that decision.


Most people are right. The show starts out a little boring. There are a lot of rehashed plots and what seems like 20 lost shuttles. Eventually, things pick up. The introduction of the Borg brought things up a notch. Just hang in there.

Mantaray

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POSTS: 2793

Report this Jul. 15 2011, 1:59 pm

Quote: enhancesys @ Jul. 12 2011, 4:48 pm

>

>Hello, I am a Star Trek fan since the 70's.  I love (pretty much) all things Star Trek...the series, movies, video games, books, etc.  I have seen all episodes of TOS, TNG and Enterprise multiple times.  Loved'em all!

>However, I did not like DS9 or Voyager.  I lasted about 1 and a half seasons on each and gave up on them when they originally showed on tv.  I've decided to tough it out and watch Voyager all the way through as I've heard both Voyager and DS9 vastly improved over time.  On Voyager, I just didn't like the characters the first time through.  Neelix and Kes were annoying.  Janeway too stiff.  Torres just went around getting angry.  Chakotay had no depth.  Kim was a wuss and Tim Russ played Tuvok too robotically.  The only characters I liked were the Doctor and Paris.

>Anyway, I am up to Phage which is early in season 1.  Neelix's lungs were stolen and Kes donated him one.  Is this the last you hear of that?  Do they both go along as if they have both their lungs?

>What pleasant surprises am I in store for for season 1?  Thanks!

>Jim

>


I would advise that you stop wasting your time with Voyager as it goes nowhere. The characters are one dimensional and nothing ends up working.  The writers just give up and make it the 7of9 TNA show the last few seasons.


Instead you should re-start DS9.  The characters are established by Season three it takes off and ends up being the most complex, dramatic and character driven series of the whole franchise.    


 

enhancesys

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 503

Report this Jul. 16 2011, 7:14 am

This is JIm...the person who started this thread.  I have made it through Episode 7 of season 1, Ex Post Facto.  Here are my thoughts to this point. 


1 - I do not remember these episodes the first time I tried to see Voyager.  I did see the first season when it first came on tv.  They must not have grabbed me the first time around.


2 - I am disappointed in that the episodes seem like rip-offs from other Star Trek episodes.  Parallax seems stolen from several TNG episodes, as well as Time and Again and Ex Post Facto (EPF).  As a matter of fact, EPF is almost identical to a TNG episode in which Riker was accused of coming on to a scientists attractive wife and killing him.


3 - I am pleasantly surprised on the side of relationship development.  For instance, Cloud was a rip-off of several TOS episodes.  However, if you ask me, the better stories in that episode are the subtelties the crew are dealing with in how to relate each other.  Such as when Kim doesn't know whether to engage the Captain for a meal.  Perhaps I can appreciate that better as I get old.


Jim

Ensign Moran

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POSTS: 97

Report this Jul. 16 2011, 8:01 am

Quote: willowtree @ Jul. 12 2011, 7:51 pm

>

>well people can function with one lung. What would be the reason to continually bring it up? But I will say that yes, it will be mentioned later on again.

>Kes leaves after season 3, and neelix becomes very sweet and caring. Many of the characters, especially B'Elanna grow very much

>The first few seasons of Voyager are on the weaker side, but it gets soooo good starting season 4.

>
Amen.


We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

Doc Boomstick

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 178

Report this Jul. 18 2011, 2:23 pm

Quote: enhancesys @ Jul. 16 2011, 7:14 am

>

>This is JIm...the person who started this thread.  I have made it through Episode 7 of season 1, Ex Post Facto.  Here are my thoughts to this point. 

>1 - I do not remember these episodes the first time I tried to see Voyager.  I did see the first season when it first came on tv.  They must not have grabbed me the first time around.

>2 - I am disappointed in that the episodes seem like rip-offs from other Star Trek episodes.  Parallax seems stolen from several TNG episodes, as well as Time and Again and Ex Post Facto (EPF).  As a matter of fact, EPF is almost identical to a TNG episode in which Riker was accused of coming on to a scientists attractive wife and killing him.

>3 - I am pleasantly surprised on the side of relationship development.  For instance, Cloud was a rip-off of several TOS episodes.  However, if you ask me, the better stories in that episode are the subtelties the crew are dealing with in how to relate each other.  Such as when Kim doesn't know whether to engage the Captain for a meal.  Perhaps I can appreciate that better as I get old.

>Jim

>


 


You are quite right about about VOY rehashing TNG/TOS stories. It wasn't so much that they copied stories directly, but rather that they tried to make VOY just like those shows, an episodic series about discovering strange new things.  I think it was too close to TNG to do this. DS9 worked well because it went in a different direction for the most part. The odd thing about this was that VOY had a nice hook. It had a unique twist. The characters were alone in the Delta Quandrant facing brand new enemies. Instant of something fresth we get rehashed stories with the same old generic humanoid villains. The show had it's merits starting at season 4, but it was still hit and miss. It's unfortunate because this could have been what Battlestar Galactica was years later. In fact, they could have just take the Year of Hell story and made the entire show around that.

enhancesys

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 503

Report this Jul. 18 2011, 6:26 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>And though I find parts of TNG to be problematic from the underlying political presumptions of the writers, as in all franchises there are very many individual episodes of TNG that I can truly say were some of the best tv science fiction i have ever ever seen. 

>It's all in what YOU take away from each episode, regardless of franchise.  Each series has those stories that hit the mark. 

>


This is so true.  I can't speak for VOY or DS9 becuase I am just going to watch them but TOS, TNG and ENT had some GREAT episodes...TOS had City on the Edge of Forever (greatest Star Trek episode of all time) and Balance of Terror.  TNG had Best of Both Worlds, Inner Light, All Good Things and Yesterday's Enterprise.  First Contact and Who Watches the Watchers are personal favorites as well.  First contact type episodes are interesting to me.


ENT had Carbon Creek, the Expanse and Zero Hour.  Historic television episodes.


I am just disappointed that they made star fleet personnel basically agnostic and/or atheistic.  True faith was rarely explored.


Jim


Just call me "Jim"!

rocketscientist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 10054

Report this Jul. 19 2011, 8:16 am

Quote: enhancesys @ Jul. 12 2011, 4:48 pm

>

>Hello, I am a Star Trek fan since the 70's.  I love (pretty much) all things Star Trek...the series, movies, video games, books, etc.  I have seen all episodes of TOS, TNG and Enterprise multiple times.  Loved'em all!

>However, I did not like DS9 or Voyager.  I lasted about 1 and a half seasons on each and gave up on them when they originally showed on tv.  I've decided to tough it out and watch Voyager all the way through as I've heard both Voyager and DS9 vastly improved over time.  On Voyager, I just didn't like the characters the first time through.  Neelix and Kes were annoying.  Janeway too stiff.  Torres just went around getting angry.  Chakotay had no depth.  Kim was a wuss and Tim Russ played Tuvok too robotically.  The only characters I liked were the Doctor and Paris.

>Anyway, I am up to Phage which is early in season 1.  Neelix's lungs were stolen and Kes donated him one.  Is this the last you hear of that?  Do they both go along as if they have both their lungs?

>What pleasant surprises am I in store for for season 1?  Thanks!

>Jim

>


I'd say that if you really had an aversion to season 1 of VOY, you probably are wasting your time with the rest of the show.  Like you, I didn't care as much for the VOY characters.  I was hot and cold over Janeway.  Sometimes she was great and other times I thought she was being an idiot.  I blame the writers.  Tom was ok.  B'lanna was just a bit too shrill for me.  Tuvok was ok, but was definitely no Spock, or Sarek for that matter.  Chakotay doesn't get better, in fact he gets more boring, because Beltran ticked off the writers and he didn't care about his performance.  I agree with you on Kim, I hated him.  Such a whiny momma's boy played by a bad actor.  Kes was just to cloying and sweet with no edge, she had to go.  And Neelix, imo, is the worst regular character in the franchise's history, an irritating, unfunny, clown who essentially was a pedophile (I'm never ever going to show my twins VOY seasons 1-3 when Kes and Neelix were a couple). 


That said, there are a couple of good reasons to watch watch VOY.  When the Borg show up, in season 4 (actually forshadowed at the end of season 3, but you don't have to watch those episodes), things get a lot better.  They get rid of Kes (they should've gotten rid of Chakotay, Kim, and Neelix too) and replace her with Seven of Nine, an ex-Borg well played by the gorgeous Jeri Ryan.  The Janeway-Seven relationship is fascinating to watch.  Seven wants and needs a maternal figure and Janeway is that, she's a mother, mentor, and commander to Seven all at once.  The other reason to watch the show is the Picardo's Doctor.  Yes, many of the episodes are similar to the ones with TNG's Data, about an artificial person's quest to understand humanity and to grow and to gain rights, but their personalities were so different.  Picardo is just such a wonderful actor and is so fun too watch. 


And, yeah, they did have some great episodes from season 4 on.  And they had some bad ones.  I don't think, in general, that VOY was as thoughtful as TNG.  I think it went more for action-adventure than really exploring the human condition as much, which is something that VOY creator Michael Pillar lamented about (he left the show when Berman, Taylor and Braga wanted to go more in this direction), but there is some good stuff in there. 


Essentially, though, I'd say VOY is, in the end, TNG v2, and just not, in general, as good.  It definitely isn't the classic that TOS was.


DS9, on the other hand, was just great.  Yeah, season 1 is a bit shaky, but consider what a wide departure DS9 was from both TOS and TNG.  It took a bit of time for the writers to really figure it out.  It's great from season 3 on, imo (and seasons 1 and 2 had a lot of great stuff too imo).  DS9, imo, is right up there with TOS and TNG.  VOY just isn't in that group, imo, but it's ok, especially if you really enjoyed TNG.


 


KHAAAAAAANNNNNN!!!!!

Vger23

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POSTS: 6799

Report this Jul. 19 2011, 10:21 am

I will add that I too have been a Star Trek fan since the late 70's...and I too did not enjoy VOY or DS9 when they originally ran.


My wife bought me DS9 for Christmas, and I finished that series up this past spring. I completely changed my mind about it and I believe that it is a very good, thoughtful series worthy of the Star Trek name.


So, this prompted me to start watching VOY on Netflix (it's streaming now, so it's easy to watch). I have to say that I am about 1/2 way through season 2 and it has been a grind. I went in completely open minded, hoping to be refershingly surprised like I was with DS9, only to now feel like I'm watching more out of obligation than out of actual enjoyment.


Issue 1: I don't resonate with the characters nearly as much. I like Tom Paris and Chakotay. Everyone else feels like a total re-tread of everything we've already seen in TOS through DS9.


Issue 2: This series, even more than TNG, is weighted down in technobabble and the "anomoly of the week" syndrome.


Issue 3: There's no Patrick Stewart to sell the preachy, sophomoric morality lessons that TOS and DS9 handled with such class and subtelty. Even thought TNG was sickly-sweet in it's application of these same kinds of themes, Stewart was a powerhouse who could pull it off.


Issue 4: After becoming accustomed to the more mature level of story-telling DS9 went for, VOY feels like a light re-do of TNG, with much less richness oand grandeur.


Issue 5: VOY had so much promise with the Maquis / Federation crew and being "lost" in the Delta Quadrent...but it really was no different that what we'd already seen on TNG. It failed to capitalize on it's potential, which is an unforgivable sin.


I'm still going to watch it, though...there's been a few gems so far. But, like I said...it's been a grind.

enhancesys

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POSTS: 503

Report this Jul. 20 2011, 5:52 am

I watched Heroes and Demons last night.  What an atrocious episode.  It was cheesy, predictable and boring.  The only redeeming quality was character development of the Doctor.


BTW, it appears VOY had only 14 episodes the first season.  Why is that?


Jim

Vger23

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POSTS: 6799

Report this Jul. 22 2011, 6:29 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>

>I will add that I too have been a Star Trek fan since the late 70's...and I too did not enjoy VOY or DS9 when they originally ran.

>My wife bought me DS9 for Christmas, and I finished that series up this past spring. I completely changed my mind about it and I believe that it is a very good, thoughtful series worthy of the Star Trek name.

>So, this prompted me to start watching VOY on Netflix (it's streaming now, so it's easy to watch). I have to say that I am about 1/2 way through season 2 and it has been a grind. I went in completely open minded, hoping to be refershingly surprised like I was with DS9, only to now feel like I'm watching more out of obligation than out of actual enjoyment.

>Issue 1: I don't resonate with the characters nearly as much. I like Tom Paris and Chakotay. Everyone else feels like a total re-tread of everything we've already seen in TOS through DS9.

>Issue 2: This series, even more than TNG, is weighted down in technobabble and the "anomoly of the week" syndrome.

>Issue 3: There's no Patrick Stewart to sell the preachy, sophomoric morality lessons that TOS and DS9 handled with such class and subtelty. Even thought TNG was sickly-sweet in it's application of these same kinds of themes, Stewart was a powerhouse who could pull it off.

>Issue 4: After becoming accustomed to the more mature level of story-telling DS9 went for, VOY feels like a light re-do of TNG, with much less richness oand grandeur.

>Issue 5: VOY had so much promise with the Maquis / Federation crew and being "lost" in the Delta Quadrent...but it really was no different that what we'd already seen on TNG. It failed to capitalize on it's potential, which is an unforgivable sin.

>I'm still going to watch it, though...there's been a few gems so far. But, like I said...it's been a grind.

>

What do you think of Kes?


 


The only worse characters in the entire franchise are Neelix and Travis Mayweather. Wesley Crusher and Dr. Pulaski are better than Kes.


I AM KEE-ROCK!!

RedShirtGuyNumber1001

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POSTS: 2016

Report this Jul. 22 2011, 8:37 pm

Are you idiots still fighting Kes battles?  It's been 2 years since this unnecessary debate has started, and 10 years since Voyager ended, and even longer since the Kes character was on the show.   Look its this simple:  You don't have to love every Star Trek character to be a Star Trek Fan, you don't even have to love every show/movie to be a star trek fan, and you shouldn't feel like you have to explain yourself as to why I like a character and you don't.  It's pointless.

enhancesys

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 503

Report this Jul. 24 2011, 2:35 pm

Well, I just finished season 1.  I thought it started well but the second half of the season was putrid until the final 2 episodes...Jetrel and Learning Curve.  I thought those 2 were pretty good.


I hope season 2 attains more consistent quality.


Jim

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