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Enterprise's Emotional Vulcans

Kaliman

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POSTS: 72

Report this Jun. 06 2011, 1:43 pm

I am currently watching the whole series on DVD and I must say I like it more than I thought I would. But this issue is really annoying. I remember from the beginnning, the way Spock conducted himself totally emotion-less, the same with other Vulcans from that series and most others. I have to admit that some in DS9 and movies did not meassure up to Spocks logic. But in Enterprise, all Vulcans get angry, surprised, disturbed, and even T'Pol's mother almost cryed. A lot of yelling by Enterprise Vulcans.
I know T'Pol has the excuse about the stuff they used on Enterprise to defend for the Annomalies, but that was on the third season. What was her excuse before then?

lostshaker

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POSTS: 2293

Report this Jun. 07 2011, 6:20 am

I always thought Spock over compensated with logic, because of his half-human side and being raised on Vulcan. He was humiliated as a kid, and so he had something to prove. He was an outsider in his own world, which permitted him to refine his sense of logic. He could see the failings of how "pure bred" Vulcans used it.


Spoiler Warnings. I don't know Kallman if you've seen the entire run of ENT, but it seems you're almost done based on your comment of T'Pol's mother. My thoughts on Vulcan Emotionalism in ENT are two: from the first season, we're presented a strictly human point of view, which colors the Vulcans a bit with subjectivity. By the other series, and even by the end of ENT, humans gained some objectivity. Later, ENT showed us that it wasn't entirely subjective, but that Vulcans were rather emotional at times (which helped to explain DS9's "Take Me Out To The Holosuite"), having to do with Vulcans losing their way from Surak's teachings, and Romulan Infiltration of the High Command. The Vulcans of ENT seemed a bit Romulan like, which suited me. They are cousins and the Romulan Wars were right around the corner. I also think it adds to the internal struggle Vulcans have with maintaining their facade.


As for T'Pol's excuse, I think it had a lot to do with the inconsistency of the Vulcan High Command and her fish out water placing aboard ENT. At first, she was surrounded by a crew that didn't want her. Interestingly, season 5 was going to explain T'Pol's emotional side by revealing her to be half Romulan.

tjthegreatest

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POSTS: 45

Report this Jun. 11 2011, 8:48 am

Also, the relationship between humans and Vulcans is farely new here. The Vulcans tried to maintain control, considering themselves and elder and wiser race with regards to space exploration. When the Federation was formed, perhaps it gave the Vulcan culture the opportunity to futher refine how they portrayed their emotions.

Trekwolf164

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POSTS: 32043

Report this Jun. 11 2011, 9:35 am

The Vulcan's being xenophobic ,paranoid and emotinally unstable was just wrong.


Having Archer be the savior of the Vulcan people is ludicrous .


All of this flies in the face of what was presented in TOS


Whenever they were having engine trouble Scotty would have been


"Ifina the Vulcan's din not hold us back Captain we would have Transwarp by now "


The noble Pacifists become utterly tarnished in the series Enterprise


 


www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcdZla4gKk0

Ghostmojo

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POSTS: 1826

Report this Jun. 12 2011, 2:57 am

It was a complete misreading of the Vulcans and it was done presumably to give the scriptwriters some more room for manouevre. The way they acted was not logical and was in many ways hypocritical. The Vulcan intercession into human affairs was bound to speed up Terran movement out into the galaxy. If they had reservations about this happening - they shouldn't have landed in the first place.


Anybody watching Trek for the first time with ENT as their guide would get a completely wrong steer as to who and what the Vulcans were all about. In ENT they display nothing of their intellectual nobility but just come across as begrudging party-poopers and supercilious and pompous interstellar neighbours.


Are supposed to beleive as the upshot of this series that it is the good old-fashioned homely can-do spirit of Archer & Co. who wears down the resistance of T'Pol - humanising her - and thereby winning over the Vulcans in the end? How did the galaxy ever get by without us?

lostshaker

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POSTS: 2293

Report this Jun. 12 2011, 6:51 am

Quote: Ghostmojo @ Jun. 12 2011, 2:57 am

>

>It was a complete misreading of the Vulcans and it was done presumably to give the scriptwriters some more room for manouevre.

>


ENT's interpretation is quite good.  It is consistent with the Vulcans in DS9's "Take Me Out To The Holosuite" and forwards Trek's recurring theme of adversaries becoming friends. It also showed why Vulcans needed logic, and their difficulty in managing their suppressed emotions. It shouldn't be forgotten that Romulans are an offshoot of the Vulcans, so the Vulcans themselves are emotionally turbulent.


It is a fallacy to state that because the Vulcans were logical in later centuries, they must also be logical in earlier ones. It fails to consider developmental stages that occur socially and biologically. Teenagers, for example, are notorious r strategists, leaping before looking. Teenagers believe their actions are logical, and can rationalize - through their own sense - irrational actions. But the average teenager lacks the ability to conceptualize abstractions, spefically consequences. This changes around 25 when brain functions develop higher reasoning skills. One's sense and understanding of logic can change. We certainly observed this with Spock with lines like "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end," and "On the contrary, I am pursuing the most logical course... I always had a different vision than my father. The ability to see beyond pure logic. He considered it weak... would have seen this mission of reunification as a fool's errand..."


As viewers, we saw a shift in the use of logic between Sarke's generation and Spock's generation.

guillermo.mejía

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POSTS: 2852

Report this Jun. 12 2011, 10:10 am

I never had problems with ENT trying to paint Vulcans in a different light. In fact, I agree with the fact that mostly likely the Vulcans in the first season are being viewed through human's eyes, which lends itself to their subtle negativity and so one.


What did trouble me about the ENT Vulcans is that in just 100 years Vulcan society seems to completely change into the Vulcans we all know and like. This nobel interpretation of Vulcans seems to have gone the way of the dinosour, with ENT and now Star Trek 2009's Vulcans being rather xenophobic bigots (in the movie it's only some kinds picking on Spock, but kids learn from their parents).


I always thought of Sarek as the perfect example of what a Vulcan should be, but these days it seems he is becoming the exception to the rule.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46309

Report this Jun. 12 2011, 12:41 pm

I always had problems with ENT's view of Vulcans.  While we know that at one time they were emotional and Surak helped them overcome the problem.  Also, after Surak's death, a large group of Vulcans left on generational ships and they eventually became the Romulans.


With the timeline between ENT and TOS being so close, the Vulcans should have been a lot less emotional at that time - closer to what they were in TOS and the other shows.


Ghostmojo

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POSTS: 1826

Report this Jun. 13 2011, 12:36 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Jun. 12 2011, 12:41 pm

>

>I always had problems with ENT's view of Vulcans.  While we know that at one time they were emotional and Surak helped them overcome the problem.  Also, after Surak's death, a large group of Vulcans left on generational ships and they eventually became the Romulans.

>With the timeline between ENT and TOS being so close, the Vulcans should have been a lot less emotional at that time - closer to what they were in TOS and the other shows.

>


Exactly.


Right - as it's my 1000th post I'm inviting all of you down to my local to celebrate ...


Free drinks all around and I'll be sitting at the bar with my Voyager Sucks t-shirt on!!!!


to boldy go where no man has gone before

Treki7

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POSTS: 8

Report this Jun. 14 2011, 5:25 am

Vulcans have the same emotions as Humans do but they are better at hiding them, or at least they believe they are better at hiding them, but just like Humans I found some Vulcans were more emotional than others in every series of Star Trek where they featured.


Every human shows & hides their emotions differently from the next, so what makes anybody think that Vulcans - however many years they learnt to control or suppress emotions - are any different?


They are not a collective, they are individuals, so I'll get to my main  reasoning - individual Vulcans show or hide their emotions differently.


It's illogical to think otherwise.


IMHO.

lostshaker

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POSTS: 2293

Report this Jun. 14 2011, 8:56 am

What did trouble me about the ENT Vulcans is that in just 100 years Vulcan society seems to completely change into the Vulcans we all know and like.- guillermo.mejia


With the timeline between ENT and TOS being so close, the Vulcans should have been a lot less emotional at that time - closer to what they were in TOS and the other shows. - FleetAdmiral_BamBam


Consider the Vulcan Mind Meld and its potential for change. V'Las' Regime created a taboo around the practice, so many Vulcans would've grown to feel isolated. Afterall, the Vulcan Mind Meld would be an outlet for their emotions and therefore an effective control for their emotional state. Without the mind meld, the Vulcan threshold may be lowered to permit more emotional displays. Just compare the non-melding Vulcans to the melding Vulcans. And look at Star Trek III: TSFS, specifically the scene where Sarek approaches Kirk in his quarters. Both Sarek and Kirk change quickly because the mind meld aligns their perspectives.


Despite the above, we only saw a handful of "emotional" Vulcans in ENT, which were largely associated with V'Las' regime. We saw a smaller handful of Vulcans that were altogether disatisfied with V'Las' regime: T'Pol's mother... and the emotion-embracing Vulcans in "Fusion" (which went a long way towards explaining Sybok). So it really is difficult to say which one was the true representation of Vulcan Society at the time. I got the impression T'Pol's mother was a good representation, while V'Las' Regime represented a Romulan incursion.


This nobel interpretation of Vulcans seems to have gone the way of the dinosour, with ENT and now Star Trek 2009's Vulcans being rather xenophobic bigots (in the movie it's only some kinds picking on Spock, but kids learn from their parents). - guillermo.mejia


I don't think this assessment applies to ENT, but again the xenophobia foreshadows the Romulans. I do agree, however, as it applies to Abrams' movie. I for one gave a standing applause when Vulcan got destroyed. I only wish Quinto's Spock joined his mother.


I always thought of Sarek as the perfect example of what a Vulcan should be... - guillermo.mejia


I fully agree, but as Trek7 argues, you can't have every Vulcan being the same. There must be variation throughout the society.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46309

Report this Jun. 14 2011, 11:49 am

Quote: lostshaker @ Jun. 14 2011, 8:56 am

>

>What did trouble me about the ENT Vulcans is that in just 100 years Vulcan society seems to completely change into the Vulcans we all know and like.- guillermo.mejia

>With the timeline between ENT and TOS being so close, the Vulcans should have been a lot less emotional at that time - closer to what they were in TOS and the other shows. - FleetAdmiral_BamBam

>Consider the Vulcan Mind Meld and its potential for change. V'Las' Regime created a taboo around the practice, so many Vulcans would've grown to feel isolated. Afterall, the Vulcan Mind Meld would be an outlet for their emotions and therefore an effective control for their emotional state. Without the mind meld, the Vulcan threshold may be lowered to permit more emotional displays. Just compare the non-melding Vulcans to the melding Vulcans. And look at Star Trek III: TSFS, specifically the scene where Sarek approaches Kirk in his quarters. Both Sarek and Kirk change quickly because the mind meld aligns their perspectives.

>Despite the above, we only saw a handful of "emotional" Vulcans in ENT, which were largely associated with V'Las' regime. We saw a smaller handful of Vulcans that were altogether disatisfied with V'Las' regime: T'Pol's mother... and the emotion-embracing Vulcans in "Fusion" (which went a long way towards explaining Sybok). So it really is difficult to say which one was the true representation of Vulcan Society at the time. I got the impression T'Pol's mother was a good representation, while V'Las' Regime represented a Romulan incursion.

>This nobel interpretation of Vulcans seems to have gone the way of the dinosour, with ENT and now Star Trek 2009's Vulcans being rather xenophobic bigots (in the movie it's only some kinds picking on Spock, but kids learn from their parents). - guillermo.mejia

>I don't think this assessment applies to ENT, but again the xenophobia foreshadows the Romulans. I do agree, however, as it applies to Abrams' movie. I for one gave a standing applause when Vulcan got destroyed. I only wish Quinto's Spock joined his mother.

>I always thought of Sarek as the perfect example of what a Vulcan should be... - guillermo.mejia

>I fully agree, but as Trek7 argues, you can't have every Vulcan being the same. There must be variation throughout the society.

>
But mind melding at the time of ENT is looked down upon.  And even later in TOS, etc., while no longer shamed, it isn't something they did all of the time.


lostshaker

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POSTS: 2293

Report this Jun. 14 2011, 1:11 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Jun. 14 2011, 11:49 am

Quote: lostshaker @ Jun. 14 2011, 8:56 am

>

>

>What did trouble me about the ENT Vulcans is that in just 100 years Vulcan society seems to completely change into the Vulcans we all know and like.- guillermo.mejia

>With the timeline between ENT and TOS being so close, the Vulcans should have been a lot less emotional at that time - closer to what they were in TOS and the other shows. - FleetAdmiral_BamBam

>Consider the Vulcan Mind Meld and its potential for change. V'Las' Regime created a taboo around the practice, so many Vulcans would've grown to feel isolated. Afterall, the Vulcan Mind Meld would be an outlet for their emotions and therefore an effective control for their emotional state. Without the mind meld, the Vulcan threshold may be lowered to permit more emotional displays. Just compare the non-melding Vulcans to the melding Vulcans. And look at Star Trek III: TSFS, specifically the scene where Sarek approaches Kirk in his quarters. Both Sarek and Kirk change quickly because the mind meld aligns their perspectives.

>Despite the above, we only saw a handful of "emotional" Vulcans in ENT, which were largely associated with V'Las' regime. We saw a smaller handful of Vulcans that were altogether disatisfied with V'Las' regime: T'Pol's mother... and the emotion-embracing Vulcans in "Fusion" (which went a long way towards explaining Sybok). So it really is difficult to say which one was the true representation of Vulcan Society at the time. I got the impression T'Pol's mother was a good representation, while V'Las' Regime represented a Romulan incursion.

>This nobel interpretation of Vulcans seems to have gone the way of the dinosour, with ENT and now Star Trek 2009's Vulcans being rather xenophobic bigots (in the movie it's only some kinds picking on Spock, but kids learn from their parents). - guillermo.mejia

>I don't think this assessment applies to ENT, but again the xenophobia foreshadows the Romulans. I do agree, however, as it applies to Abrams' movie. I for one gave a standing applause when Vulcan got destroyed. I only wish Quinto's Spock joined his mother.

>I always thought of Sarek as the perfect example of what a Vulcan should be... - guillermo.mejia

>I fully agree, but as Trek7 argues, you can't have every Vulcan being the same. There must be variation throughout the society.

>
But mind melding at the time of ENT is looked down upon.  And even later in TOS, etc., while no longer shamed, it isn't something they did all of the time.


The view of mind melds began to change though as quickly as the Vulcan Trilogy. Consider the ramifications of T'Pau's Term in Office and her promoting Syrrannite Philosophy. The Vulcans suddenly have a government sanctioning Mind Melds and a cure for Pa'nar Syndrome for which T'Pol is prime evidence. 


The second point, as it applies to TOS, is an assumption. The mind meld doesn't have to be an activity performed regularly, nor must it be advertised, as Spock noted in "Dagger of the Mind": 


Spock: It's a hidden, personal thing to the Vulcan people, part of our private lives.


I would assume a Vulcan individual mind melds with few people in their lifetime... parents, siblings, mates, and children. But all that aside, the Kir'Shara presented hard evidence of Surak's teachings... illogical for anyone to deny.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46309

Report this Jun. 14 2011, 2:27 pm

Quote: lostshaker @ Jun. 14 2011, 1:11 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Jun. 14 2011, 11:49 am

Quote: lostshaker @ Jun. 14 2011, 8:56 am

>

>

>

>What did trouble me about the ENT Vulcans is that in just 100 years Vulcan society seems to completely change into the Vulcans we all know and like.- guillermo.mejia

>With the timeline between ENT and TOS being so close, the Vulcans should have been a lot less emotional at that time - closer to what they were in TOS and the other shows. - FleetAdmiral_BamBam

>Consider the Vulcan Mind Meld and its potential for change. V'Las' Regime created a taboo around the practice, so many Vulcans would've grown to feel isolated. Afterall, the Vulcan Mind Meld would be an outlet for their emotions and therefore an effective control for their emotional state. Without the mind meld, the Vulcan threshold may be lowered to permit more emotional displays. Just compare the non-melding Vulcans to the melding Vulcans. And look at Star Trek III: TSFS, specifically the scene where Sarek approaches Kirk in his quarters. Both Sarek and Kirk change quickly because the mind meld aligns their perspectives.

>Despite the above, we only saw a handful of "emotional" Vulcans in ENT, which were largely associated with V'Las' regime. We saw a smaller handful of Vulcans that were altogether disatisfied with V'Las' regime: T'Pol's mother... and the emotion-embracing Vulcans in "Fusion" (which went a long way towards explaining Sybok). So it really is difficult to say which one was the true representation of Vulcan Society at the time. I got the impression T'Pol's mother was a good representation, while V'Las' Regime represented a Romulan incursion.

>This nobel interpretation of Vulcans seems to have gone the way of the dinosour, with ENT and now Star Trek 2009's Vulcans being rather xenophobic bigots (in the movie it's only some kinds picking on Spock, but kids learn from their parents). - guillermo.mejia

>I don't think this assessment applies to ENT, but again the xenophobia foreshadows the Romulans. I do agree, however, as it applies to Abrams' movie. I for one gave a standing applause when Vulcan got destroyed. I only wish Quinto's Spock joined his mother.

>I always thought of Sarek as the perfect example of what a Vulcan should be... - guillermo.mejia

>I fully agree, but as Trek7 argues, you can't have every Vulcan being the same. There must be variation throughout the society.

>
But mind melding at the time of ENT is looked down upon.  And even later in TOS, etc., while no longer shamed, it isn't something they did all of the time.

The view of mind melds began to change though as quickly as the Vulcan Trilogy. Consider the ramifications of T'Pau's Term in Office and her promoting Syrrannite Philosophy. The Vulcans suddenly have a government sanctioning Mind Melds and a cure for Pa'nar Syndrome for which T'Pol is prime evidence. 

The second point, as it applies to TOS, is an assumption. The mind meld doesn't have to be an activity performed regularly, nor must it be advertised, as Spock noted in "Dagger of the Mind": 

Spock: It's a hidden, personal thing to the Vulcan people, part of our private lives.

I would assume a Vulcan individual mind melds with few people in their lifetime... parents, siblings, mates, and children. But all that aside, the Kir'Shara presented hard evidence of Surak's teachings... illogical for anyone to deny.

Overall, I think we're saying the same thing - except that I don't think the timeline would account for such a major change in the Vulcans.


guillermo.mejía

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2852

Report this Jun. 14 2011, 8:11 pm

I've seen the argument used by a few that we can't judge all Vulcans in the 22nd Century based on the emotional ones we saw.


While I would agree with this in real life, I dunno if It can apply here. After all, this is a tv medium, and what we are shown is what we are ment to interprate. If ENT producers wanted to show that not all Vulcans are bigoted, they should have placed forth more than one or two examples, which were outnumbered constantly.


A bit flimsy, but it's my P.O.V. when i've been up since before 5 AM.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

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