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Borg Cube vs Death Star

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Jun. 17 2011, 11:06 am


Why come out of hyperspace in range?   They figured they were out of range with no need to retreat.  These cargo ships are known to have strong shields.  I haven’t found an example of them retreating.


Did they even know the superlaser's range or if it can target them? Besides, the closer they get to the station, the less distance the fighters have to fly.


Additionally, the Star Destroyers were about to engage them, had the Death Star not fired; they would not have remained out of range for long. Remember that this was a hit and run attack; either the Fortressa was going to move in to support the fighters or not participate in the battle – in which case there wasn’t any reason for them to be there and let the Star Destroyers maul them.


Incidentally, we do actually see them fleeing Geonosis in Episode II – although I don’t think we need to have seen an example of them retreating to prove that they ever retreat.


The empire wouldn’t consider the borg cube enough of a threat to use the super laser due to their notorious over confidence.


That would seem to be contradicted though by their use of the weapon against the Fortressa, which also wasn’t a threat. The Rebel fleet at Endor wasn’t considered a threat to the station and was additionally outnumbered by the Imperial fleet – and yet the superlaser was still used to cull the larger ships.


Indeed, no fleet was supposed to present a problem to the second Death Star once it was finished – and yet its designers still gave the superlaser even more accurate targeting computers for engaging vessels. The Imperials are notorious for their arrogance, but also for their penchant for overkill.


After given the targeting system the Death Star II was described to “even be able to target capital ships”.  As if this was an accomplishment insinuation that it wasn’t able to do this before.


However, we know that this is not the case as it targeted and destroyed the Fortressa.


Also at best if the super laser can fire off axis it would have a limited firing arc of about 45 degrees based on visuals from episode 4.  A torrent has an arc of 360 degrees.  Those are designed for targeting mobil targets.


They were designed for use against capital ships, not specifically mobile targets; indeed, the heavy guns have problems against small and mobile targets. Similarly, mobility is never mentioned at all in discussing the station’s ability to target the Fortressa.


Tenn said "If we have the power to reach that far, I will hit it, sir,".  They didn’t know if it was in range or not.


Tenn didn’t know it was in range yet, because he hadn’t been given any targeting information up to this point – the CO informs him after he says the line above and he immediately realises that the weapon is in range.


Again, the Empire is known for their over confidence.  Tenn’s confidence of being able to hit the target is besides the point.


But his assessment was correct – he hits the target; Tenn was among the best gunners in the Empire, and as such his assessment should carry much weight.


I don’t think you can generalise that as some of the more mono-maniacal leaders are arrogant and overconfident, that all Imperials down to a grass roots level are as well; indeed the CO in this scene goes against this generalisation, asking Tenn if he is actually able to hit the target and suggesting it is not an easy target, instead of simply assuming that they can because they’re Imperials due to overconfidence and arrogance.


They never engaged the capital ship though.  They hit it from far away why it was probably not moving or moving very slowly with its sublight engines (see ICS for their specs on this matter)


Attacking a ship is engaging it in battle.


I believe they showed battles scenes of bioships engaging cubes and the cubes were moving around with evasive maneuvers. 


I don’t remember seeing them acting evasively; which scene is this in, approximately?


The borg could have found out about the super laser beforehand from assimilation.


That’s a bit outside of this scenario, however; they’re just supposed to encounter the Death Star at random, not as part of a larger conflict.


If 4% of the energy used against the Fortressa was overkill that’s precisely why it would be inefficient.


Why? They ended the engagement in 30 seconds with no loss of life or resources and without any other shots being fired. That would cost the Death Star just under an hour to recharge the lost energy; I don’t see why this is less preferable than a lengthier engagement.


The empire’s overconfidence would prevent them from using the full power of their battle station to stop one ship.


Again, the Battles of Despayre and Endor would point away from this; despite not believing themselves threatened, the superlaser was still used.


It takes time for the lasers to converge and fire on the target.  Plenty of time for the cube to dodge it.


The Borg aren’t renowned for their reaction speeds or their propensity for dodging though…


I retract my concession then.   You’ve pointed out examples of the Death Star missing with its super laser before.


That was when a barely operational, skeletal prototype was being crewed by a handful of inept bureaucrats and a single Stormtrooper, the former using the station as an escape vehicle, of all things. They had little clue what they were doing, and ended up flying the thing into a black hole by accident; obviously, this isn’t really an example of standard operation.


There’s no guarantee they will have the best gunners at the control stations of the super laser.


But we know this isn’t the case though – Tenn’s there at the superlaser controls, one of the best gunners in the Empire. They specifically hand-picked the best gunnery team they could to crew the superlaser; after all, why would you put mediocre gunners at the controls of your ultimate weapon?


You’re comparing apples and oranges.  We should stick to the most specific examples of these ships not make hasty generalizations with other ships.


They're CIS ships of the line; they thus are comparable to other ships of the line. And the ability to move and shoot regular weaponry is something that every mainstream ship in Star Wars, capital or otherwise, can do; indeed, why logically would a Lucrehulk not be able to? What would be limiting them in this way?


Plus it’s more of a cargo ship than a capital ship, wouldn’t you say?


I'd suggest not - it was refitted as a combat ship by the Trade Federation and then refitted again by the CIS as a frontline warship; it would be no more considered a cargo ship than the Mon Calamari cruisers would be considered luxury liners despite having originally been such before their refits.


I don’t think they would have chosen the Fortressa as a target if they were moving given their range and the amount of time it took the laser to travel from the death star to the target in the novel.   


Whether the target is stationary or not is not even touched upon in Tarkin and Tenn's decision making processes; this would not be the case if it were such a critical factor. Besides, we see in the movies that the superlaser beam takes only seconds to hit; in the novel, Tenn wasn't even able to complete his thought about how long it would take before the target was destroyed.


Both they are both C-canon, isn’t it just as likely that the Death star technical companion throws the death star novel out of canon instead of the other way around?


I'd suggest not - there is no way that Lucas Licensing are going to consider an entire section of a popular recent novel non-canon in favour of a single line in a ten year old sourcebook from a discontinued role-playing game.


I’ve seen a few torpedoes do it.  Some examples that come to mind are in DS9 “Shattered Mirror”, TNG “Genesis”, and Star Trek 6


Those are actually significantly wider arcs - remember that in most cases the torpedoes are seen from a long way away and are performing their turns over far greater distances the few metres away that we see the proton torpedoes make their turn in.


For example, in Star Trek VI, the photon torpedoes targeting Chang's ship make sweeping arcs - if they made the sort of turns the proton torpedo did, from Chang's vantage point the torpedo would have instantly changed course by 90 degrees with no visible turn, something I don't believe we see in Star Trek.


They could assimilate X-wings and have them do the job.


Where would they get X-wings from, though? The scenario in the thread is them stumbling upon the Death Star, not a protracted campaign. Plus they'll run into the same problems that beset the Rebels; it took the son of the Chosen One to actually make the shot.


I'm also rather dubious about Borg piloting skills...


The problem is actually getting the drones aboard in the first place - plus you'd also need rather a lot of drones, bearing in mind the numbers of secondary weapon systems the station has.


Not if the borg adapt to them.


I meant that you would need a large number of drones aboard to physically assimilate each of the different weapon emplacements, bearing in mind the number of weapons present.


This isn’t your standard type of battle either.  Against species 8472, the borg came up with this idea themselves.  It makes sense they’d consider it here too.


This is their first encounter with the Empire; they won't have developed any special strategies yet.


They may not have considered the idea until encountering species 8472 but nevertheless, it could be a part of their strategy now. They have considered releasing a nanoprobe biogenetic weapon on earth before in episode “dark frontier pt 2”


That device had to actually be detonated in the atmosphere, though; the fact that they were considering it instead of the multi-kinetic neutronic mine shows that such things were not standard practice.


Additionally, the nano-probes assimilate lifeforms, not vessels (which would obviously not be applicable to the Species 8472 vessels as they were lifeforms).


The nanoprobes have to actually be physically applied though, and they take time to work; you can't just spray them at things, otherwise the Borg wouldn't need drones.


Star trek states that there are infinite layers.  We don’t know if they can jam them simply because it can jam subspace.


Different layers "further away" from our space are more presumably more difficult to reach though, otherwise the Empire wouldn't be able to jam subspace transmissions at all (unless they can jam all its layers, which seems a bit unlikely).


Is there anything that indicates the Borg have a greater access to different layers of subspace than the Empire?


Yes bypassing space altogether.  They could send a signal back 0.0000000001 seconds which is still the present for all practical purposes.


It doesn't bypass space - it's still carried on a subspace frequency (otherwise the Borg interplexing beacons - which are designed to pick up subspace frequencies from the Collective - wouldn't be able to detect them), but that signal is sent temporally as well as spatially.


Additionally, this again doesn't appear to be standard Borg equipment.

Camorite

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Report this Jun. 17 2011, 1:51 pm

sorry i have not been able to reply for a while, but i am back, and will try to make up for lost time.


Er... what? I'm not sure where you got your numbers from; Wookieepedia uses over 30 different sources just for its article on the Death Star. Indeed, there's an entire novel - called Death Star, no less - chock full of details not mentioned in the film


oops, that was not what i ment, i ment that of those sources, the bulk of them are only references to the DS, and that only a few of those books actually go into any detail about them. but i stick by what i said, so the point stands.


Explain how my posts on this subject constitute "whining" or concede that you're simply labelling every rebuttal against you - accurate or not - that includes the EU as "whining" regardless of content.


its simple, the primary point that these people whine about is that trek fans have hours apon hours of source material to use and if SW fans were to limit themselves to only onscreen material, they would not have a chance of makeing thier arguements. but on this subject it is a moot point as there is not enough material on the DS in the EU to even make a defference. understand now.


However, the loss of communication still often impairs them - the drones in the previously mentioned examples - and I'm not sure how efficiently they will be able to fly a vessel designed around the crew being in telepathic contact with each other if they can't hear each other anymore and half the crew's cracking up.


agian it is simple. there is not evidence, AT ALL, to show that any type of jamming would effect the drones on the ship. at most it would sever their connection to the collective as a whole, but as i have already shown, a ship cna function without contact with the collective, so long as they have a clear objective, which in this case would be to capture and assimilate a powerful piece of tech.


Why would it break through the jamming? Each Borg's signal is exactly the same power as every other's.


ok, and if you were talking about one or two drones that might be the case, but the more of somthing there is the more powerful the signal would be. an example of this is in BOBW when the away team was trying to take out the nodes. one phaser was unable to do the job, but two phasers were able to destroy them.


Why would it work in reverse? If there's a protocol for Borg vessels to cut themselves off from the Collective if they're infected, then logically the uni-plex should cut itself off from the Collective when it gets infected, surely?


isn't that what i have been trying to say?


No, Voyager found a Borg tactical database saying the conflict had been going on for five months, and we see the planet being destroyed after this point; after that, Seven says that the Borg project their defeat to be imminent.


yes i know this. but, assuming that we are thinking of the same cube, it is not unusual, especially with Voyager, for them to show something in the opening scene that takes place hours, if not mouths or years, before the time that the episode takes place.


But you weren't - you were actually giving completely erroneous details in the posts you were using them in!


they were only erroneous details to those that was unable to understand them or refused to accept them. its up to you which catagory you fall under.


What has that got to do with it being 'one battle early in the war' or them being surprised? Those were the only reasons you gave for the Borg not manouevring against the planet destroyers in that battle


 its borg 101, they assimilate an enemy in order to learn about them and thier tech. every trek fan knows that.


There isn't a link like that; they're not on wi-fi with the Death Star main computer. Otherwise all anyone would have to do get the Death Star plans (or anything else, for that matter) would be to steal a TIE Fighter and hire a slicer.


yes i know that it is streaching things a little, but were is it ever said or stated that there is no signal like the one i mentioned.


Plus, you can't really use the example of one man to assume that all Imperials will act exactly like this.


i agree that not all imperials are like that, but at the same time the EU is packed full of imps like that.


And again, the information she managed to get wasn't the sort of information - i.e. the frequencies - that the Borg would need to counter the weapons


regardless, in the end she was still able to get top secret info out of him with just a little ego strokeing. the point, as well as the example stand.


This has already been explained multiple times - the Borg already had that information. They don't in this scenario.


And i have given many examples of how they could get the info, you just refuse to accept that any of them are possible. plus on top of that is the admittion by Locutos that they got what they needed to survive the attack from Picard, so your explanations are a irrelavant as he said data would be.


Indeed, it told them which of those frequencies - which the Borg already possessed - the deflector attack was going to use, i.e. the ones which damaged the Cube in the first attack, which he'd been told they were going to use


ok, one question, the borg told him that they were after him, and he knew that they took information through assimilation, the the question is WHY WOULD HE HAVE THIS KIND OF INFO when he knew there was a chance that the borg would get it?


"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

Camorite

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Report this Jun. 17 2011, 1:55 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>

>That's completely irrelevant; its canonicity isn't based on how many people have seen it.

>even if that is the case it is still irrelevant to the topic at hand, which, and i did check on this, there is only a small handfull of actual books out there that does more then makes a passing reference to the DS (around half a dozen), and most of those don't go into much more detail about how the station works then that.

>

 

Of the few references to the Death Star that do exist, I find the accuracy of questionable as well.  In the Death Star Technical Companion, they clearly state that the original Death Star is only capable of firing at full power.  This contradicts the events in that Death Star novel.


thankyou marshal. that stated, the death star novel becomes irrelevant, as movie canon overrides it.


"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

Kaliman

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Report this Jun. 17 2011, 2:53 pm

I, being a ST and SW fan find this interesting. But I may lean in favor of the Death Star and these are my main arguments:


1) If Voyager can defeat the borg cube or sphere, with Janeway commanding, what chance do they have against vader? you know, he is not stupid, he will have a way. I am sure he can kill them all just by thinking of it.


2) If we just think about the way science fiction ussually goes, the borg are a disposable people, being so because there are many of them and because they are not really the main enemy of the federation. So even if it was just for the fun of it. I don't think four of seven would prevail over Palpatine.

lnagr1

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Report this Jun. 17 2011, 6:50 pm

I think this could go on forever over who would win. Does it really matter?

FltAdmlHyperViper

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Report this Jun. 17 2011, 8:41 pm

Well I look at it this way both the Empire and the Borg have defenses of their own and are formidable in their own way but lets look at history shall we? History has proven that good always triumphs over evil, and being that the Empire has always been up to no good and so has the Borg than we all should know that a battle or a war between the Borg and the Empire would end up being a stale mate neither one winning over the other? Why? Because Evil never begets evil. So it really doesn't matter who would win in a fight, if they ever met up with each other they would sure enough end up fighting. So why not let them cancel each other out, that way we on the good side of the Force as Star Wars fans call it can do exactly what we in the Federation would do rest and sleep quite well at night. May the force be with you and live long and prosper. \\//,


Fleet Admiral Hyper Viper

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Jun. 18 2011, 7:58 am

Camorite:


 


sorry i have not been able to reply for a while, but i am back, and will try to make up for lost time.


It's ok Camorite, there's no time limit - take as long as you need.




oops, that was not what i ment, i ment that of those sources, the bulk of them are only references to the DS, and that only a few of those books actually go into any detail about them. but i stick by what i said, so the point stands.


You don't appear to have addressed the issue that these sources go into significant details which don't appear in the film and that in fact are a major factor in this discussion - the issue of jamming which spawned this tangent, for example.




its simple, the primary point that these people whine about is that trek fans have hours apon hours of source material to use and if SW fans were to limit themselves to only onscreen material, they would not have a chance of makeing thier arguements. but on this subject it is a moot point as there is not enough material on the DS in the EU to even make a defference. understand now.


Er... what? I haven't mentioned anything in this thread about how many hours each series have as being why we can use the EU, I've argued that we can use the EU because it's part of the canon.




agian it is simple. there is not evidence, AT ALL, to show that any type of jamming would effect the drones on the ship.


Yes there is; the Borg drones' neural transceivers use subspace signals and the jamming affects subspace signals.




at most it would sever their connection to the collective as a whole, but as i have already shown, a ship cna function without contact with the collective, so long as they have a clear objective, which in this case would be to capture and assimilate a powerful piece of tech.


Again, the examples you show are groups of Borg cut off from the main Collective but still in connection with each other, not every drone cut off as an individual. How are they supposed to co-ordinate an action (or indeed even fly the ship efficiently) if no-one on board can communicate with each other anymore? And what happens if some of the ship starts exhibiting their original personalities or become disoriented as we see in some of the examples when drones lose their connection to the Collective?




ok, and if you were talking about one or two drones that might be the case, but the more of somthing there is the more powerful the signal would be.


Only if they're sending out exactly the same signal - but they're not, each drone sends out unique signals relating to its function and activities; there would be a mishmash of many different signals, not a single coherent one reinforced by numerous generators.




an example of this is in BOBW when the away team was trying to take out the nodes. one phaser was unable to do the job, but two phasers were able to destroy them.


That's a false analogy though; destruction dealt out by weapons has nothing to do with signal transmission strength.




Why would it work in reverse? If there's a protocol for Borg vessels to cut themselves off from the Collective if they're infected, then logically the uni-plex should cut itself off from the Collective when it gets infected, surely? 


isn't that what i have been trying to say?


No, you were saying that the process would work in reverse and the uninfected Sphere should have cut itself off from the main Collective; in actuality, the infected uni-complex would cut itself off, the Sphere would still be connected to the main uninfected Collective.




yes i know this. but, assuming that we are thinking of the same cube, it is not unusual, especially with Voyager, for them to show something in the opening scene that takes place hours, if not mouths or years, before the time that the episode takes place.


The scene of the planet being destroyed occurs after they find the information from the Cube that the war has been going on for five months; if there are actually months or years between these two scenes rather than hours or days, then that would mean that the war had been going on even longer than five months by the time the planet destroying scene happens.




they were only erroneous details to those that was unable to understand them or refused to accept them. its up to you which catagory you fall under.


LOL! No erroneous details?


You claimed that the only reason the Borg didn't use special tactics against the planet destroyer seen in Scorpion was because it was at the beginning of the war (even though it wasn't) and it was a 'surprise' attack (even though they had been at war with Species 8472 for months and had multiple planets destroyed in the same way)... despite the fact that the attack on the Death Star in this scenario would also be at the beginning of a war (the very first battle!) in a completely unplanned engagement... meaning that, by your own logic, the Borg wouldn't be using special tactics against the Death Star.




What has that got to do with it being 'one battle early in the war' or them being surprised? Those were the only reasons you gave for the Borg not manouevring against the planet destroyers in that battle 


   its borg 101, they assimilate an enemy in order to learn about them and thier tech. every trek fan knows that.


Right, but... that has nothing to do with the points about it being 'one battle early in the war' or them being surprised, which were the only reasons you gave previously and which I was discussing.


Besides, this is their first encounter with the Death Star. They haven't assimilated information on it (outside of the extremely improbable set of coincidences occurring involving TIE pilot Rebel saboteurs that you mentioned previously) and thus would be using no special tactics.




yes i know that it is streaching things a little, but were is it ever said or stated that there is no signal like the one i mentioned.


You can't prove a negative; the burden of proof rests on you to prove that they do exist. As you say, this is stretching things.




i agree that not all imperials are like that, but at the same time the EU is packed full of imps like that.


Right, normally the leaders... but as you say, not all Imperials are like that, and it wouldn't be the leaders that the relevant information would need to be collected from.




regardless, in the end she was still able to get top secret info out of him with just a little ego strokeing. the point, as well as the example stand.


But you're trying to present a very unusual situation (he was in love and trying to marry into nobility, she was a high ranking Princess) as the norm. This situation isn't applicable or replicable for 99% of Imperials.


And again, this is no use to the Borg as this sort of information isn't the relevant information they need. Lord Tion might be expected to brag to Leia about the existence of an invulnerable battle station (the sort of information to win her over to the side of the Empire); an engineer isn't going to randomly be telling his lover weapon frequencies; how would it even come up in conversation? It would be a flare-light tip off that espionage was going on! Indeed, even in the example with Leia, she ends up giving herself away and ultimately shoots Lord Tion.




And i have given many examples of how they could get the info, you just refuse to accept that any of them are possible.


They're impossible without a large number of highly unlikely coincidences just happening to occur - and if any one of the numerous unlikely coincidences doesn't happen, the whole scenario falls apart.


I might as well say that the Borg Cube just happens to have a whole load of rebel drones onboard who commandeer the ship at a critical point, allowing the Empire to easily defeat the Cube...


If you claim that the only way the Borg can get this information is by astronomical amounts of good luck falling into their laps, then you've kind of already conceded that in the 99.999% of situations where this unlikely string of coincidences doesn't happen, the Borg will lack this information and thus be vulnerable.




plus on top of that is the admittion by Locutos that they got what they needed to survive the attack from Picard, so your explanations are a irrelavant as he said data would be.


Camorite... you're repeating your original argument again unchanged. This was already addressed in my last post to you - they got what they needed to survive the attack from Picard because he told them which frequencies - which the Borg already possessed - the deflector attack was going to use.


Without this information from Picard, the Borg wouldn't have known which of the frequencies they'd been previously attacked with that the Enterprise was going to use and would thus not have been able to counter the attack.




ok, one question, the borg told him that they were after him, and he knew that they took information through assimilation, the the question is WHY WOULD HE HAVE THIS KIND OF INFO when he knew there was a chance that the borg would get it?


Because he's supposed to be running the ship; he can't make critical decisions if no-one gives him any information about them. Certainly there is nothing in the episode itself to even hint that Picard is locking himself away from the crew's decisions; indeed, the fact that we're told that Shelby and Riker briefed him on the scheme implies the opposite.


Besides, it would be a wasted endeavour; even if Picard were assimilated without that knowledge, he would know exactly who did have it, and the Borg would assimilate them in the same manner instead.


Additionally, I didn't think the Borg ever stated in BoBW that they were after Picard personally?


 


thankyou marshal. that stated, the death star novel becomes irrelevant, as movie canon overrides it.


The Death Star Technical Companion isn't movie canon.

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Jun. 18 2011, 1:02 pm


That’s a good question.  The kind of question I’m supposed to be asking you if you’re going to argue the position you’re arguing from. You were the one arguing that the Fortressa would be mobile so it can get out of range.


Mobile so it can stay out of range of approaching Star Destroyers, not the superlaser.




This is assuming the Fortressa knew about the superlaser to begin with.  I’m guessing they didn’t, without having read the book.


They knew of its existence and that it could be used to blow up planets (hence their desire to destroy the station pre-emptively) but not its detailed specifications.




Or the Fortressa was going to hold its ground just like every other time we’ve seen this class of ship do.  Probably to buy time and provide cover fire while the x-wings engage the death star.


How could it provide cover fire if the Star Destroyers weren't in range yet and the X-wings were moving away from it?




But we don’t see them moving.  They could have just jumped into hyperspace.  If that’s all these ships can do to move around then the Death Star wouldn’t have a prayer of hitting them, firing off axis or not.


Wait - are you arguing that they can't move at all at sub-light?




The over confidence of the empire doesn’t have to be proven by me as it is cited all over canon.


You're describing it like a uniform, racial trait when this is not the case; Tarkin and Motti were arrogant regarding the Death Star's abilities, but General Tagge, Chief Bast and Vader were not and exercised caution.


The Imperials have a propensity for arrogance, but this is still a generalisation and exactly how any arrogance manifests itself is equally not uniform - in this case, we have examples that any arrogance would not lead them to these conclusions.




The Fortressa doesn’t count as a contradiction since they had a fleet that could have engaged them but decided to run a test with the super laser instead.


Why would they want to test the superlaser against a capital ship when they will never use it against capital ships due their arrogance, as capital ships aren't a threat to the station?




The rebel fleet at endor doesn’t count since that was the Death Star II firing the super laser.  The Death Star II has the ability to target capital ships as part of its design.  Totally besides the point.


I was actually arguing that the second Death Star wasn't threatened by the capital ships at Endor either, so why did they need to fire the superlaser? But I'm going to retract this as, since you could argue that the Emperor was using it as a means to show Luke Skywalker that the rebel fleet had absolutely no hope.




You still haven’t successfully demonstrated that the first Death Star’s super laser had the ability to target vessels.


I assume that you mean moving vessels, since it does actually target and destroy a vessel?




It’s likely the Fortressa was as stationary as a planet making them a prime target for a superlaser that can’t fire off axis.


Plus look what was stated in the book the moment the Death Star fired:


...


There was a considerable delay between when they fired and when the superlaser had hit its target.  Given there distance if the Fortressa were mobile, they could have easily have moved out of the path of the superlaser.


The delay is barely seconds - Tenn doesn't even finish his thought. We see how fast the superlaser beam takes to strike targets in the films - a second or two. A fighter pilot's reaction speed is barely that fast, let alone trying to manoeuvre a whole capital ship.




The only two ways around this are if the Fortressa were mobile or if it were following a predictable path that Tenn could aim ahead with while taking into account the amount of time the super laser needs to travel before hitting it.


This is almost certainly; it would have been either retreating or moving into support, and capital ships of that size are not very manoeuvrable.




In either case, this is compatible with firing the super laser without having to be able to fire off axis.


Again, this is contradictory to what we see in the novel - in order to target something without being able to fire off-axis, the Death Star's pilots would be doing the targeting as they have to move the station to orient the superlaser in the right direction.


This doesn't happen however - the order to attack the Fortressa is sent to the superlaser gunnery team, not the pilots, and the targeting technician is present with them in Superlaser Fire Control; additionally a targeting field generator is powered up as part of the superlaser firing process.




It was able to destroy capital ships, not necessarily target them.  That’s what we’ve been trying to figure out this whole time.  This form of circular reasoning doesn’t prove they can target ships.


Tarkin says to Superlaser Control that he "has a target" for them, a targeting field generator is brought online by the gunner team and the targeting technician reports the vessels destruction. Combined with the previous points above, I don't really think you can call the argument simply circular reasoning.




The super laser can destroy micro-meteorites too if they got in the path of a super laser but that doesn’t mean they can target them.


That's a false analogy though; the Fortressa wasn't accidentally caught in the path of the superlaser, they were deliberately attacking it.




Capital ships are known for their low maneuverability.  Maybe their Fortressa’s mobility is never mentioned because it has none.


It's not completely immobile; like the other capital ships, it would have low manoeuvrability.




The Death Star also has access to fleets of ships.  They did not need to use the super laser to destroy anything.  It was merely a test.


They didn't need to use it, but the superlaser was quicker, potentially saved resources and lives and its use is precisely in line with Tarkin's Doctrine of Fear. Besides, why would they want to test something to see if it can target capital ships if it never needs to or is intended to target capital ships?




Tenn is told how far away the ship is one line before he expresses doubt on being able to reach that far with their 4% power.


I stand corrected.




They had no idea what it would do.


They knew it would destroy the ship; that's why Tarkin asks them to shoot at it.




If the people that know the weapon don’t know, then the Fortressa wouldn’t certainly not know either.  This is why I’d think they wouldn’t be going anywhere since as far as they were concerned they were out of range from a super laser they probably knew nothing about. 


It would have been the soon to be approaching Star Destroyers that they would be concerned about.




Additionally the Fortressa had strong shields with no conceivable reason for them to retreat yet.


They were about to be engaged by multiple Star Destroyers; if they weren't going in to engage them, then you normally get away as quickly as possible, you don't hang around to let the enemy actually engage you.




Tenn deliberately hesitates before firing and had problems carrying out the orders to fire.


Eh? It doesn't mention him hesitating or having any problems in the excerpt you provided.




I believe he also deliberately hesitated in destroying the rebel base during episode 4, something that saved the rebels in the end.


He did - but that was after he developed crippling guilt from blowing up Despayre and Alderaan.




How would a gunner know about the super laser that has barely been tested in the field?


Because him and his crew have been going through intensive training in firing the weapon.




Indeed after the Fortressa was destroyed he couldn’t believe it himself.


That's not entirely accurate - in your excerpt the targeting technician was briefly awed by the fact that the ship had been atomised and there was absolutely nothing left of it, but I don't think anyone was seriously surprised that firing even a partially powered planet destroying weapon at a single ship would be able to destroy it.




So why should his assessment be taken seriously?


Because he's an elite and highly respected gunnery chief who has been training with the weapon extensively?




It’s not that hard to see if something is directly in the path of a laser if the Fortressa is a stationary target.


Again, see the arguments above regarding the problems with the Fortressa being stationary.


 


The CO smiles as soon as he sees the Fortressa knowing that it can be a target for the superlaser. The action of smiling can be interpreted an arrogant demeanor.


Is this from a bit of the book not quoted? I can't find him doing this in your excerpt.


Additionally, the fact that he asks Tenn whether he can actually hit the vessel and says that it's not an easy target (instead of just assuming he can because they're awesome) would tend to point the other way.




Look at this passage from the novel:


...


You don’t think that sounds like just a hair of arrogance to you?  


That's banter with his CO though, not a targeting assessment made under operational circumstances.


 


Attacking a ship is engaging it in battle.


Given that they only had one shot of the super laser available,  it was their intention to test their super laser from a safe distance before moving their fleet in to engage them in battle as their plan.


I agree - but attacking the Fortressa with the superlaser is still engaging it in battle.




as you can see one of the cubes got hit along its edge and not destroyed.


That isn't really an example of them manoeuvring evasively though... I mean, the embedded scene is rather indistinct and I can't make out a lot, but the Cube isn't dodging, juking around and making rapid, erratic course corrections, is it?




The thing that makes the borg a threat is their ability to multiply and spread quickly.  I’d say it’s very much within the scenario that they’ve assimilated knowledge of this weapon before engaging it. 


But the scenario says that the Borg use their temporal warp technology to travel to the Star Wars galaxy and come across the Death Star; you're adding to the scenario by assuming that they encountered other things before this.




Because overkill is inefficient.


Not within the philosophy of the Doctrine of Fear; the whole Death Star was overkill. An hour of superlaser recharge is still preferable and more efficient to losing Imperial lives and resources.




The engagement wasn’t ended either. The empire still had 500 ships to contend with.


Indeed, but the superlaser couldn't do anything about them, it could only prevent a capital ship engagement.




They said they had nowhere to go, presumably because they would have boarded the Fortressa upon exiting the battle (another reason why the Fortressa would not retreat)


X-wings are hyperdrive equipped, though; I was under the impression the only reason they launched from the Fortressa was because it meant they could all swarm from one location instead of being more spread out (to stop them crashing into each other when they reverted to realspace in those sorts of numbers).




Endor doesn’t count since we’re talking about a different type of laser.  No one’s disputing its ability to target ships as part of its design.


As above, I was actually arguing that the second Death Star wasn't threatened by the capital ships at Endor, so why did they need to fire the superlaser - but I'm going to retract this as I did above, since you could argue that the Emperor was using it as a means to show Luke Skywalker that the rebel fleet had absolutely no hope.




Plus the death star was surrounded by ships which is more threatening than a single one.


The Death Star was surrounded by an energy shield that the fleet couldn't penetrate; they were no threat.




The Despayre incident was for testing purposes.  Threatened by what?  A planet with no life after their first time firing? They fired on the planet several times, the first destroyed all life.  There was no needed to fire again if this was a battle and felt threatened. 


The Battle of Despayre, not the later test-firing done on the planet.




It wouldn’t take much to dodge a weapon that takes time to prepare to fire, time for the lasers to converge then fire, time for the laser to get to the target.


The superlaser beam only takes seconds to hit a target from convergence. That's insufficient time for a multi-kilometre capital ship to realise the shot is being taken and react, let alone completely get out of the way.




It’s still known whether the original death star could fire off axis as well.


See above for the arguments regarding this.




Given a completely random encounter and at best 45 degree firing arc, there’s at best a 12.5% that the borg will be able to be shot at with the super laser even if it could fire off axis.


Indeed.




45 degree firing arc^


Doesn't the fact that its shown as having an arc of fire at all in the movies imply the ability to fire off-axis? What would be the point of the graphic, otherwise? Wouldn't it be a single, straight line?


 


I retract my concession then.   You’ve pointed out examples of the Death Star missing with its super laser before.


That was when a barely operational, skeletal prototype was being crewed by a handful of inept bureaucrats and a single Stormtrooper, the former using the station as an escape vehicle, of all things. They had little clue what they were doing, and ended up flying the thing into a black hole by accident; obviously, this isn’t really an example of standard operation.




It had a malfunctioning target mechanism.  It would have failed even if Tenn was onboard in that case.


I don't think it was actually malfunctioning, it was that it was being operated by a handful of incompetent bureaucrats who hadn't got a clue what they were doing.




This is still an example of the Death Star missing.


But not really relevant considering the circumstances.




I don’t think an example is needed to prove it’s capable of missing a ship though.


Anything is capable of missing - the question is whether it was likely to. The escapades of the Maw Facility administrators in the barely operational Death Star prototype don't shed any light on this.




But we don’t know if Tenn’s there in this scenario.  People do work in shifts and take vacation time you know.


If that were the case, then it would be a different team of crack gunners; we know from Tenn's story that the superlaser gunnery crews were hand-picked from the best in the Empire.




Plus Tenn hesitates in battle while in the Death Star.


Only at the station's final battle on Yavin and only when asked to destroy a whole planet; he wouldn't even blink at destroying a single aggressor ship, particularly after the "Resistance is Futile speech".




Capital ships are known for their lack of maneuverability.  It still wouldn’t change anything. 


Indeed - but neither are Borg Cubes...




Nor does it change anything that I’ve yet to see a moving Lucrehulk on screen giving good reason to think it would not be moving here either.


You can't compare a hit and run surprise attack with blockading or holding planets; there was no reason for them to move in the situations on film. Again, what possible reason would there be for Lucrehulks to not be able to move and attack?


 


According to wiki, all ships over 100 meters in length are considered capital ships.  I suppose by that definition it’s a capital ship.


A bit of a strange definition... I'd argue more that it's a capital ship due to its size, armaments and use.


 


It’s a bit naive to assume all capital ships behave the same way though.


They're not going  have completely identical specifications, but they have to be on par with each other to have any effectiveness.


Besides, the ability to move and attack is a basic trait of all regular ships; such a bizarre and inexplicable drawback would be mentioned in the Lucrehulk's profile.




In the movies, they are firing at full power.


Why would firing at full power make the beam faster?


Besides, we see the low power shots in Episode VI take exactly the same time.




We don’t even know if the super laser would be charged at all by the time it encountered the borg ship.


Unless they'd literally just blown up a planet, it seems unlikely that they wouldn't have some charge in the device; they don't need much.




There’s plenty of canon contradictions in this book:


There's usually a few in every book - but these are simply instances where the author uses a word wrong (Wild Space instead of Outer Rim, SSD instead of Imperial II; I think "Zi" could be easily retconned as a nick-name); what you're suggesting is that Lucas Licensing would consider the removal of an entire section of a popular novel because it contradicts a single line of a ten year old sourcebook for a defunct role-playing game... rather than considering that one line in said book to have been retconned; it's not even remotely realistic.




Let’s say you’re right,


...


Does that look like a 90 degree instant course change to you man?  Luke fired his protons in the same way as their plan.


No, but I think you misunderstood me; that arc that the proton torpedoes make would look like a 90 degree instant turn at the distance we view the torpedoes turning in during STVI.


However, you have now provided a link to the footage in "Shattered Mirror" which definitely shows photon torpedoes making a 90 degree turn, albeit in a parallel universe.




From assimilating one of the rebel bases.


Again, you're altering the scenario; the thread had them stumbling upon the Death Star, not a protracted campaign against the Star Wars galaxy.




They wouldn’t have to travel the trench the way Luke did. 


How so?




They would inject their tubules and the nano probes would travel to different systems by themselves.


They've got dozens of square kilometres to cover - there's no way it could cover that much time in an appreciable time frame without being discovered.


I'm also dubious as to how effectively the borgification can continue indefinitely; in Regeneration, the Borg assimilation doesn't continue to spread from the 'infected' area to assimilate the whole Enterprise.




No one made the stipulation that it had to be their first encounter with the empire.


The OP was "Let's say that a Borg Cube was able to use their temporal warp technology and travel to a galaxy long ago and far far away. They encounter a fully manned and operational Death Star..."; it's a single Cube transporting to the galaxy and encountering the Death Star.


Plus, not being their first encounter with the Empire opens up a whole can of worms of what the Empire has in turn learned about the Borg to counter them...




They wanted to assimilate humanity though.  Here they just wanted to destroy species 8472.  Janeway said it would endanger innocent worlds.


That was because of the wide area of effect; the nano-probes could hit and infect any of the planets in range.


If multi-kinetic neutronic mines are now a standard procedure (or indeed so effective), why are they not filling one with regular human affecting nano-probes and detonating it on Alpha Centuri instead of making a pathogen device that has to be detonated in the atmostphere?


 


The nanoprobes have to actually be physically applied though, and they take time to work; you can't just spray them at things, otherwise the Borg wouldn't need drones.


That’s not what I saw with the high yield warhead in episode “scorpion pt 2”


That was using specially modified nano-probes which reacted with Species 8472 cells instead of needing to be injected into the blood stream like the regular version - otherwise again, why aren't the Borg firing high yield warheads with nano-probes and still having to inject nano-probes instead of spraying them in aerosol form from a distance?




They shown superior technical knowledge in some areas like being able to send messages back in time, travel back in time, and transporter technology.


Indeed - but conversely the Empire have shown superior technological knowledge in some areas such as shielding, power generation, faster than light travel and weapons technology. Again, is there anything to indicate that the Borg have greater access to different layers of subspace than the Empire?




So they sent a message from the alpha quadrent to the delta quadrent to a ship while in slip scream in a different time and you don’t think it kinda needed to bypass space to do that?


The it still has to be a subspace signal to be received by the subspace interplexing beacon; that it has been sent temporally as well as spatially doesn't change this.




The federation found one.  They don’t encounter the borg  very often.  It must be standard enough if they could get their hands on one.


That doesn't follow, though; it could be an experimental device. The test of whether it is standard equipment is whether we actually see the Borg using the device in standard settings, and in the many encounters with the Borg we see this device is never used, despite its massive theoretical usefulness.




A photonic missle (borg inspired weapon) could probably fit into the exhaust port of the Death Star.


That looks like a better size to do so.

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Jun. 18 2011, 1:09 pm

Quote: lnagr1 @ Jun. 17 2011, 6:50 pm

>

>I think this could go on forever over who would win. Does it really matter?

>


No more or less than any other subject on this board...


That said, this discussion is spiralling out of control now... I'm not going to be able to keep replying to two people at this sort of length.


I think I'm going to have to just agree to disagree on this subject with Camorite and Marshall.

FltAdmlHyperViper

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Report this Jun. 18 2011, 9:01 pm

No it doesn't matter. I agree with you on that.


Fleet Admiral Hyper Viper

FltAdmlHyperViper

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Report this Jun. 18 2011, 11:29 pm

Yeah, let's talk about something else.


Fleet Admiral Hyper Viper

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Report this Jun. 18 2011, 11:43 pm

The biggest problem still is that can the death star stop the borg from beaming aboard? The federation used shield remodulation to try stopping them. Even then the borg would eventually get through. So the borg have superior transporters. The empire has no knowledge of transporters and therefore no idea how to stop it. Some here assume that the death star design would block this but can anyone prove it in canon? I have found no canon that shows that the death star could even remodulate it's shields but only increase it's strenght.


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Camorite

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Report this Jun. 19 2011, 3:27 pm

You don't appear to have addressed the issue that these sources go into significant details which don't appear in the film and that in fact are a major factor in this discussion - the issue of jamming which spawned this tangent, for example.  

 



So in your opinion whenever something is mentioned about the death star it has info that has never been used before. with the exception of the Jedi Acadomy Trillogy, Dark Saber, Death Star Novel, and the books for episodes IV and VI (which are the novels that i know of that go into info on the DS that were not in the movies), give me specifics on these insights. 

Er... what? I haven't mentioned anything in this thread about how many hours each series have as being why we can use the EU, I've argued that we can use the EU because it's part of the canon.



 first off, did EVER say that you were one of those people. Most of those people left the boards long ago, or just stopped making a big deal about it. second i am not argueing that it is canon, only that the amount of info that the EU gives on this perticular subject is not enough to make any difference.


 Yes there is; the Borg drones' neural transceivers use subspace signals and the jamming affects subspace signals


possibly when it comes to contacting the main collective, but there is no proof that it would effect the conection to drones on a ship. until you can prove that this it is possible to discinect ALL the drones on the ship from each other, with subspace jamming, your point is defeated, and thus there is no reason to continue it.


again, the examples you show are groups of Borg cut off from the main Collective but still in connection with each other, not every drone cut off as an individual. How are they supposed to co-ordinate an action (or indeed even fly the ship efficiently) if no-one on board can communicate with each other anymore? And what happens if some of the ship starts exhibiting their original personalities or become disoriented as we see in some of the examples when drones lose their connection to the Collective?  


 


agian prove that they are cut off from each other and we will continue this debate, otherwise you might as well give this one up and concede the point.


That's a false analogy though; destruction dealt out by weapons has nothing to do with signal transmission strength.


Why? Phasers and nural transmitters work along the same priciple. they both send out a type of energy pulse. the only difference is that, in most cases, one is potentially leathal and the other is not.


No, you were saying that the process would work in reverse and the uninfected Sphere should have cut itself off from the main Collective; in actuality, the infected uni-complex would cut itself off, the Sphere would still be connected to the main uninfected Collective.


same thing, just a different way of saying it.


The scene of the planet being destroyed occurs after they find the information from the Cube that the war has been going on for five months; if there are actually months or years between these two scenes rather than hours or days, then that would mean that the war had been going on even longer than five months by the time the planet destroying scene happens.


but we are not talking about the planet, we are talking about the scene at the begining of the episode when that cube is destroyed. i will also add that that memory bank that they found was from that group of 15 ships that shot past Voyager 10 minutes into the episode.


 You claimed that the only reason the Borg didn't use special tactics against the planet destroyer seen in Scorpion was because it was at the beginning of the war (even though it wasn't) and it was a 'surprise' attack (even though they had been at war with Species 8472 for months and had multiple planets destroyed in the same way)... despite the fact that the attack on the Death Star in this scenario would also be at the beginning of a war (the very first battle!) in a completely unplanned engagement... meaning that, by your own logic, the Borg wouldn't be using special tactics against the Death Star.


 clearly we are not on the same page here, becuase that is not what i said, or at least what i was intending on saying.  


 Besides, this is their first encounter with the Death Star. They haven't assimilated information on it (outside of the extremely improbable set of coincidences occurring involving TIE pilot Rebel saboteurs that you mentioned previously) and thus would be using no special tactics


 look even if it was just a tie pilot, he would still have knowledge of imperial tactics and stategies, epsecially if it was a battle vetern (for example Baron Fell). this would also give them knowledge of the jamming, as well as the super laser. Even if it was not enough to defend against the super laser, it would still give them a head up on the DS, which the DS commander would not have on the borg.


But you're trying to present a very unusual situation (he was in love and trying to marry into nobility, she was a high ranking Princess) as the norm. This situation isn't applicable or replicable for 99% of Imperials.


 that is where you are wrong. why do you think that so many admirals and captians went on to pursue thier own intrests when the DS2 was destoryed? it was becuase their egos were greater then their loyaty to the empire. this type of attitude is more common before Endor, but it is still there, and very much relevant to the debate at hand.


Camorite... you're repeating your original argument again unchanged. This was already addressed in my last post to you - they got what they needed to survive the attack from Picard because he told them which frequencies - which the Borg already possessed - the deflector attack was going to use


and i have already explained that he would not have known the frequencies since the weapon was not even finished by the time he was captured and assimilated. if picard had been captured after the weapon had been finished that would be one thing, but that is simply not the case here.


 Because he's supposed to be running the ship; he can't make critical decisions if no-one gives him any information about them. Certainly there is nothing in the episode itself to even hint that Picard is locking himself away from the crew's decisions; indeed, the fact that we're told that Shelby and Riker briefed him on the scheme implies the opposite


 being briefed on a plan and actually knowing every detail about it is not the same thing. all a commander has to do is to sign off on a plan and then let the poeple that know how to implement it do thier work, which is the case in BOBW.


Additionally, I didn't think the Borg ever stated in BoBW that they were after Picard personally?


so when they ordered picard to lower the shields and beam abord thier ship they were not actually asking for him personally, they were asking for Data or Worf. com on vorta, they as good as told him that they wanted him as the voice of the collective. 


 


"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

Camorite

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Report this Jun. 19 2011, 3:42 pm

here are my thoughts on the issues marshal:


-star wars tech is made of durasteel so the injection tubials or nanoprobes could not penetrate or assimilate it.


i say bull crap. the Doctor stated in Scorpion that nothing can stop the tubuals from penetrating thier target. in the case of 8472, it appears that the tubes are penetrating, but something in the organic ship was preventing the nanoprobes from injecting into it.


-the jamming thing with the transporters


i bring up a point i made earlier, and that is how can they jam something that they know nothing about?


-star wars weapons are not frequeny based so the borg cannot adapt to it


agian i say bull crap. energy weapons are still energy weapons, and can still be adapted to by the borg.


-ICS star wars book states that the turbolasers are so powerful that they could destroy a borg cube in one shot that would make a transphasic torpedo look like nothing in comparison.


one book out of many that states this BS calculation. Yes i will admit that it made it into a canon source, but it is still, IMO a BS fanboy calculation that should not even be considered as legit in any way shape or form.


-there's some weird left over AI bot program in the Death Star's computers (forgot the name of it) which they thought would have successfully been able to resist the assilation process


OK, this is the first time i have heard about this one. But if their is no basis for it in any of the SW canon, it is just whishfull thinking of the people that came up with it, and therefore nothing but a load of bull crap.


now i have stated these opinions on the first page of this thread, and i will continue to do so, until someone proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that these opinions are wrong.


"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

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Report this Jun. 19 2011, 8:53 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>The Borg Cube would win. Teddy bears destroyed the death star.

>


BEEP!


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