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Borg Cube vs Death Star

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Report this Jun. 09 2011, 9:12 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

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>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fwy7v7BK2Q   that's pretty good

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Are you worthy of being added to the Collective's perfection?

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Jun. 09 2011, 3:26 pm

Camorite:


well that is just too bad vorta, as, since we only really see the death star in action in the movies, novels just don't count here. compain and wine about it all you want, but it is the truth.


Er... no, the novels mention the firing process and surrounding mechanics in levels of detail that the movies cannot. Again, I'm not going to ignore pieces of the canon just because you unilaterally decide to randomly, anymore than you would ignore parts of Star Trek canon if I did the same.


And can we lose the "whining", please? Replying in a neutral tone is not whining; otherwise I might as well accuse you of "whining" about jamming and the EU, or indeed anything else in this thread.


ok, i will give you that, but answer this, where was the queen in Regeneration? the answer is of course, apros, 60,000 light years away in the Delta Quadrant, and those drone were able to cause just as much damage without her being linked up with them.


They were able to wander round assimilating nearby things, yes, but that's a far cry from successfully co-ordinating a ship designed for a telepathic crew that can no longer communicate with each other; these Borg were also still in neural connection with each other rather than completely isolated.


Additionally, this does not alter the fact that drones have been significantly impaired in other situations when they are cut off; the drones in Regeneration are the exception, not the rule.


here is the way that i understand borg systems when it comes to viruses. a virus, for instance the one that Hugh set loose on his cube, takes out a Cube/Sphear and some program instantly disconects them from the main collective in order to stop the spread of the virus (Decent, Collective, Unity, BOBW, and Infinate Regress to name a few). the same has to be true for information comeing into such ships should, albiet unlikely, someone get a virus directly into the uniplex, like what happened in Endgame.


So presumably the Sphere that goes after Voyager never contracted the virus - it being operational - as the virus went no further than the uni-complex due to the above safeguards.


8472's weapon was nothing like the Death Star. for one they needed to combine the power of several ships together in order to pull off such a feet.


Indeed, but it was still able to one-shot kill a Borg Cube (or planet) just like the Superlaser can, yet they still behave exactly the same as they always do; I don't see any reason why they should behave any differently when confronted with a different, one-shot kill planet destroying weapon.


second we have seen similare techniques being used by races in the alpha quadrant (when Enterprise used its phasers to drill holes deep into a planet in Inheritance for one, and the Doomsday weapons for two). so don't go saying that 8472 had a monopoly on this kind of tech, which clearly they DID NOT.


Er... what are you replying to here? I never said anything about planet destroying weapons being limited to Species 8472.


ok then that said why couldn't they assimilate a pilot or corvette crewman that is freinds with someone (perhaps a family member or a lover) that has the same information Picard had about the super laser.


Because the only reason Picard's information was of any use was because the Borg already had the frequencies for the weapon - not that that would do any good in the case of the superlaser, as no Borg shielding can withstand firepower of that magnitude.


Furthermore, why on earth would a family member/lover be randomly telling their loved ones classified technical information about the Empire's ultimate weapon? Not to mention the exceptionally unlikely chance that the random crew the Borg assimilate just so happening to be related/lovers of the small, highly select superlaser design team.


exaclty, and all the super laser is is a turbo laser on steroids.


Right... except it'll destroy them with with one shot, and the Borg don't possess shield technology to adapt to those levels of energy, as seen in their fight with Species 8472.


unless they assimilate someone that has a basic knowledge of how the weapons on the DS work, which is not really all that hard to find.


They need rather more than basic knowledge; no pilot is going to be randomly memorising the precise frequencies for all Imperial beam weapons (and even then, that doesn't take into account projectile weapons like torpedoes and magnetic rail-guns that don't use frequencies).

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Jun. 09 2011, 3:48 pm

Marshall:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fwy7v7BK2Q   that's pretty good


ROFLMAO! The reactions of Vader and Tarkin are perfect! 


Hilariously, there really is an incident in canon where a superlaser (the Death Star Prototype's, in this case) actually did miss a planet due to gunner incompetence...


I haven't seen anything canon which states that the original Death Star was capable of firing off axis...


Again, there is nothing in canon even mentioning the ability either way, as far as I'm aware; conversely, the events at Despayre require the superlaser to be fired off-axis for the reasons suggested in my previous post (pilots having to be relied on to move the entire station to aim, rather than the gunners as described in the book; the astronomical coincidence that would have to have occurred for the enemy vessel to just happen to be perfectly in line with the superlaser going completely unmentioned in the commanders decision making in targeting the vessel).


...though the second Death Star is marveled for having this ability insinuating that the first Death Star does not have this ability.


Those links are fan-sites, not canon sources; they were only presenting the information available at the time and are significantly out of date (one by over eight years!), making no reference to recent material such as the Death Star novel.


We see the original Death Star rotate so that the laser was facing toward Alderaan.


Indeed - when we see the station doing this, the superlaser is actually facing away from the planet.


Then it appeared to stop rotating once the planet was in the center of vision.


Why is stopping at this point unusual? Why would they want to rotate any further than this?


This does support on-axis only firing because this is something they would have to do if they only have this ability.


The ability to fire off-axis does not mean that they are duty bound to fire off-axis every time; it's not like they were taking a snap shot, in this scenario there was no need to unnecessarily complicate the shot when they had as much time as they needed to set up.

Camorite

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Report this Jun. 09 2011, 7:39 pm

Er... no, the novels mention the firing process and surrounding mechanics in levels of detail that the movies cannot. Again, I'm not going to ignore pieces of the canon just because you unilaterally decide to randomly, anymore than you would ignore parts of Star Trek canon if I did the same.


and yet only one out of who knows how many who watched the movies actually went on to read any novels. again, novels are second rate canon that even lucas himeself, reportedly, has stated are not connected to the movies.


And can we lose the "whining", please? Replying in a neutral tone is not whining; otherwise I might as well accuse you of "whining" about jamming and the EU, or indeed anything else in this thread.


Umm, the only one whineing here is you because we don't want to accept your novels. i will say this though, if we are talking about the trek universe as a whole, then i would accept the novels, but we are talking about one element of the trek universe, and therefore, in contrast to the amount of onscreen info on the DS, has an equal amount of onscreen time. therefore the novels are not needed or wanted in this discution.


They were able to wander round assimilating nearby things, yes, but that's a far cry from successfully co-ordinating a ship designed for a telepathic crew that can no longer communicate with each other; these Borg were also still in neural connection with each other rather than completely isolated.


hmm, not coordinated huh, as one or two drones were able to assimilate a research team and thier escorts, plus at least one freighter, and organize an attack on Enterprise, yeah, i guess that they were not all that coordinated


So presumably the Sphere that goes after Voyager never contracted the virus - it being operational - as the virus went no further than the uni-complex due to the above safeguards.


no, the sphear cut itself off after the queen gave it her fianl orders. the fact that it was able to resist all of those starships when it left the corridor is proof that they were not impared by the virus.


Indeed, but it was still able to one-shot kill a Borg Cube (or planet) just like the Superlaser can, yet they still behave exactly the same as they always do; I don't see any reason why they should behave any differently when confronted with a different, one-shot kill planet destroying weapon.


so becuase of what they did in ONE battle at the begining of a war, as well as a SURPRISE attack, you are going to assume that the Borg didn't change thier battle stategy. I hope that you are never asked to lead a battle, as you would compleatly underestimate your enemy.


I never said anything about planet destroying weapons being limited to Species 8472.


actuyally vorta you did imply that 8472 was the only race that had this ability by stateing that 8472 were the only race that the Borg ever came up agianst with a planet destorying weapon.


Because the only reason Picard's information was of any use was because the Borg already had the frequencies for the weapon - not that that would do any good in the case of the superlaser, as no Borg shielding can withstand firepower of that magnitude


and why couldn't they get that info from the computers on the ship that they assimilate. Look, i am not trying to make the borg look like an almighty indestructable force, but at the same time you are seriously unestimating them.


Furthermore, why on earth would a family member/lover be randomly telling their loved ones classified technical information about the Empire's ultimate weapon? Not to mention the exceptionally unlikely chance that the random crew the Borg assimilate just so happening to be related/lovers of the small, highly select superlaser design team


have you ever listened to the N.P.R. radio drama for A New Hope, in the first or second chapter there is an Imperial officer that visits Aalderain in the hope of winning Leah, and starts telling her and Bail about the Death Star. you seem to forget the arrogance of much of the higher ups in the Imperial navy, as they will brag about what they are working on.


On top of that the person does NOT have to be a member of the design team, but simply an engineer on the project.


Right... except it'll destroy them with with one shot, and the Borg don't possess shield technology to adapt to those levels of energy, as seen in their fight with Species 8472.


and as stated before this is based on one battle, at the begining of the war, as well as a surprise attack on one of thier planets. that evidence would really hold up agianst any scrutiny


They need rather more than basic knowledge; no pilot is going to be randomly memorising the precise frequencies for all Imperial beam weapons (and even then, that doesn't take into account projectile weapons like torpedoes and magnetic rail-guns that don't use frequencies).


Basic knowledge is all they had to stop the deflector weapon in BOBW. as far as i am concerned, and you already know this, that the tommygun scene from First Contact is overrated as hell as it has been proven that ity takes anywhere from 1-12 borg drones to adapt to a weapon. This has been seen and explained several times.


"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Jun. 11 2011, 9:03 am

Camorite:


and yet only one out of who knows how many who watched the movies actually went on to read any novels.


That's completely irrelevant; its canonicity isn't based on how many people have seen it.


again, novels are second rate canon...


The tiers of canon are only relevant in the case of contradictions; lower levels of canon are still canon.


...that even lucas himeself, reportedly, has stated are not connected to the movies.


Not connected to the narrative of his movies, not their continuity. The movies tell the story of Darth Vader; the EU doesn't make up a part of that narrative, it fills in the details and stories around and in-between it.


Umm, the only one whineing here is you because we don't want to accept your novels.


I didn't say you were whining, I asked you stop condescendly accusing people of "whining" whenever they reply to you in any way about the EU; it's insulting and, frankly, childish.


i will say this though, if we are talking about the trek universe as a whole, then i would accept the novels, but we are talking about one element of the trek universe, and therefore, in contrast to the amount of onscreen info on the DS, has an equal amount of onscreen time. therefore the novels are not needed or wanted in this discution.


But that doesn't make sense; we're only talking about one element of the Star Wars as well - the canon relavent to the Death Star. Who does an "analysis" of something by ignoring the majority of the available details about it?


hmm, not coordinated huh, as one or two drones were able to assimilate a research team and thier escorts, plus at least one freighter, and organize an attack on Enterprise, yeah, i guess that they were not all that coordinated


I said that wandering around assimilating nearby people was not the same as successfully co-ordinating a ship designed for a telepathic crew that can no longer communicate with each other; after they had assimilated people, they were in neural contact with these new drones, not isolated as individuals.


Conversely, a Borg Cube hit by subspace jamming will have every crewmember severed from neural connection with each other operating as individuals and unable to effectively communicate, unlike the crew of the Borgified vessels in Regeneration.


no, the sphear cut itself off after the queen gave it her fianl orders. the fact that it was able to resist all of those starships when it left the corridor is proof that they were not impared by the virus.


If Borg vessels cut themselves off from the Collective once they contract a virus, surely the uni-plex would have cut itself off and stopped the virus spreading beyond itself; why would the Sphere need to cut itself off from the Collective too if, as we know, it hadn't been infected?


so becuase of what they did in ONE battle at the begining of a war, as well as a SURPRISE attack, you are going to assume that the Borg didn't change thier battle stategy. I hope that you are never asked to lead a battle, as you would compleatly underestimate your enemy.


...


and as stated before this is based on one battle, at the begining of the war, as well as a surprise attack on one of thier planets. that evidence would really hold up agianst any scrutiny


*facepalm* Camorite... I can't believe you put unnecessary snide remarks at the end of posts that you made so many errors in:


- This wasn't a battle at the beginning of the war; the war had already gone on for 5 months and was projected by the Borg themselves to last only a few more weeks.


- Likewise, Species 8472 had blown up multiple planets in exactly the same way, and the Borg knew they were able to strike anywhere at will from Fluidic Space; I'm not sure that constitutes much of a "surprise" attack.


- You state that they didn't use different tactics because this was one battle at the beginning of a war and a surprise engagement - and yet the scenario in this thread is the first ever engagement between the Borg and the Empire, and completely unplanned; even by your own theory, there's no reason for the Borg to react any differently than in Scorpion.


actuyally vorta you did imply that 8472 was the only race that had this ability by stateing that 8472 were the only race that the Borg ever came up agianst with a planet destorying weapon.


Er... I didn't say that 8472 were the only race that the Borg ever came up against with a planet destroying weapon - you said that we don't usually see them engage planet destroyers, and I replied with "Actually, we have seen them go up against a planet destroying weapon, that of Species 8472...".


I make no mention of them being the only race with this ability, or even the only race that the Borg have ever gone up against with this ability.


and why couldn't they get that info from the computers on the ship that they assimilate.


Why would a fighter or corvette be randomly carrying around weapon specifications for the superlaser or any of the other Death Star weapons in their computers?


have you ever listened to the N.P.R. radio drama for A New Hope, in the first or second chapter there is an Imperial officer that visits Aalderain in the hope of winning Leah, and starts telling her and Bail about the Death Star. you seem to forget the arrogance of much of the higher ups in the Imperial navy, as they will brag about what they are working on.


That was a member of the Rebel alliance deliberately trying in an act of espionage to get classified information from someone using their romantic connection to influence them - he wasn't just blurting it out for no reason to random people in a pub. And despite this she didn't get from him the detailed technical specifications that the Borg would need.


Unless this hypothetical crewman who just happens to be a lover of Death Star engineer also just happens to be a Rebel saboteur, why would he be pumping his lover for detailed technical information illegally? I mean, weapon frequency specifications are not something that'll just randomly crop up in conversation, are they?


On top of that the person does NOT have to be a member of the design team, but simply an engineer on the project.


Though presumably one which actually worked on the superlaser/turbolasers/other weapons; each engineer does not have a complete knowledge of the entire station, they would only be assigned to work on the specific area they are specialists in.


That the random TIE pilot/crewman assimilated will just happen to be a family member/lover of one of them is still extremely unlikely.


Basic knowledge is all they had to stop the deflector weapon in BOBW.


No, they had the exact frequencies - the basic knowledge was only which of those frequencies they already had would be used.


After all, how can you prepare the sort of precise counters we see in adaptations against a weapon you only have the vagueist details about? The Borg aren't magic; they need to get details from somewhere, they can't just pull them out of thin air.


as far as i am concerned, and you already know this, that the tommygun scene from First Contact is overrated as hell as it has been proven that ity takes anywhere from 1-12 borg drones to adapt to a weapon. This has been seen and explained several times.


I didn't say anything about their ability to adapt to them in any situation (and that First Contact scene wouldn't have been the example which I would have used exclusively had I been); I was talking about how getting the frequencies - as we were talking about in the BoBW example - was useless against weapons that didn't have coherent frequencies.

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Jun. 11 2011, 9:40 am

Marshall:


I don't think that we can assume the Fortressa was completely stationery; it had already disgorged its fighters and we see capital ships in the movies and TCW disgorging them on the fly - remember that in Episdoe I, the Droid Control Ship was the one being attacked and was maintaining orbit to broadcast its droid control signal, which obviously isn't applicable in this battle.


The problem with the idea that the Death Star has to move into position like an X-Wing to target things is that the pilot would be the one who has to set up the targeting - and the order is not given to the pilots, but to the Superlaser Control gunnery crew. The targeting tech is in fire control with them, a member of the gunners; the superlaser power up process actually lists enabling the "targeting field" (presumably the central focusing field where the tributaries converge, which is the point where it would fire off-axis from) as one of the stages.


Additionally, there's the issue that if we were to assume that the superlaser can only fire forwards and the Fortressa was successfully hit by quickly lining it up manually with superlaser, why can they not do the same to the Borg Cube? They fly in a predictable straight line towards their targets without manoeuvring and then stop; it shouldn't be a more demanding target.

Camorite

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Report this Jun. 11 2011, 10:54 am

That's completely irrelevant; its canonicity isn't based on how many people have seen it.


even if that is the case it is still irrelevant to the topic at hand, which, and i did check on this, there is only a small handfull of actual books out there that does more then makes a passing reference to the DS (around half a dozen), and most of those don't go into much more detail about how the station works then that.


I didn't say you were whining, I asked you stop condescendly accusing people of "whining" whenever they reply to you in any way about the EU; it's insulting and, frankly, childish.


and if you had been around when i first started posting on these boards you would call it whining as well. you buddy chr33355 was one of the most vocal of them.


But that doesn't make sense; we're only talking about one element of the Star Wars as well - the canon relavent to the Death Star. Who does an "analysis" of something by ignoring the majority of the available details about it?


yes, and as i stated before out of all of the novels out there, there is very little information on the death star that you cannot get from simply watching the movies.


I said that wandering around assimilating nearby people was not the same as successfully co-ordinating a ship designed for a telepathic crew that can no longer communicate with each other; after they had assimilated people, they were in neural contact with these new drones, not isolated as individuals


the point is that they were still able to function without the queen being present. which clearly shows that those drones that died in First Contact died because of somesort of feedback due to the Queens destruction, not by the destruction itself.


Conversely, a Borg Cube hit by subspace jamming will have every crewmember severed from neural connection with each other operating as individuals and unable to effectively communicate, unlike the crew of the Borgified vessels in Regeneration.


you don't know that for sure. yes we have seen it done on single drones in I Borg and Decent, but at the same time, for all we know, the grouping of thousands of drones would be enough to break through any jamming.


If Borg vessels cut themselves off from the Collective once they contract a virus, surely the uni-plex would have cut itself off and stopped the virus spreading beyond itself; why would the Sphere need to cut itself off from the Collective too if, as we know, it hadn't been infected?


look Vorta, we have seen it before when the collective will cut off a ship becuase it was infected with some sort of virus. therefore it should work in reverse should the Uniplex be infected by a virus as well.


*facepalm* Camorite... I can't believe you put unnecessary snide remarks at the end of posts that you made so many errors in:


and what errors would those be? there was no time stamp on that first attack, nor was there any indication that borg were ready for the attack on the planet. as for the so-called snide remarks, well sorry if you were offended by them, but i am simply calling them as i se them.


- You state that they didn't use different tactics because this was one battle at the beginning of a war and a surprise engagement - and yet the scenario in this thread is the first ever engagement between the Borg and the Empire, and completely unplanned; even by your own theory, there's no reason for the Borg to react any differently than in Scorpion.


and you are neglecting one major difference between the two, the borg were unable to assimilate 8472 or their bio tech, while they can and will assimilate imperial officers and their tech.


Why would a fighter or corvette be randomly carrying around weapon specifications for the superlaser or any of the other Death Star weapons in their computers?


if there was some sort of link between the ship and the Death Star (more likely in a fighter then a corvette) then the borg would just use that connection to get all the info that they needed on their primary target.


That was a member of the Rebel alliance deliberately trying in an act of espionage to get classified information from someone using their romantic connection to influence them - he wasn't just blurting it out for no reason to random people in a pub. And despite this she didn't get from him the detailed technical specifications that the Borg would need.


and yet it clearly shows that all it takes is a little ego stroking and, depending on the officer, they will sing like a canary.


Unless this hypothetical crewman who just happens to be a lover of Death Star engineer also just happens to be a Rebel saboteur, why would he be pumping his lover for detailed technical information illegally? I mean, weapon frequency specifications are not something that'll just randomly crop up in conversation, are they?


well there is one possibility right there, the rebles had many spies in the empire, esepcially after Alderaan was destroyed. therefore this person could very well be a reble sympathiser that is trying to get a report off when he is captured and assimilated. either way, again, it has been proven that all it takes is a little ego strokeing witht he right officer for them to sing.


No, they had the exact frequencies - the basic knowledge was only which of those frequencies they already had would be used.


which picard would not have known about. Locutos as much as admitted that his knowledge HELPED THEM to prepare for the deflector attack


"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

Camorite

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Report this Jun. 11 2011, 10:56 am

I don't think that we can assume the Fortressa was completely stationery; it had already disgorged its fighters and we see capital ships in the movies and TCW disgorging them on the fly - remember that in Episdoe I, the Droid Control Ship was the one being attacked and was maintaining orbit to broadcast its droid control signal, which obviously isn't applicable in this battle


and you are forgetting one thing here vorta, that is that SW ships are large and bulky, not made for the type of manuvers that you see trek ships do.  


"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Jun. 11 2011, 1:47 pm

even if that is the case it is still irrelevant to the topic at hand, which, and i did check on this, there is only a small handfull of actual books out there that does more then makes a passing reference to the DS (around half a dozen), and most of those don't go into much more detail about how the station works then that.


...


yes, and as i stated before out of all of the novels out there, there is very little information on the death star that you cannot get from simply watching the movies.


Er... what? I'm not sure where you got your numbers from; Wookieepedia uses over 30 different sources just for its article on the Death Star. Indeed, there's an entire novel - called Death Star, no less - chock full of details not mentioned in the film.


These sources give significant details about the station's history, armament, power source, crew complements and other specifications not described in the film - indeed, this whole tangent was started by you over the fact that the information regarding jamming was not found in the films.


Again, who does an "analysis" of something by ignoring detailed information about it? Why should any relavent details in the canon be ignored in the first place?


and if you had been around when i first started posting on these boards you would call it whining as well. you buddy chr33355 was one of the most vocal of them.


No, I wouldn't - and what have previous topics and other posters got to do with how you reply to me in the here and now? Explain how my posts on this subject constitute "whining" or concede that you're simply labelling every rebuttal against you - accurate or not - that includes the EU as "whining" regardless of content. 


 the point is that they were still able to function without the queen being present. which clearly shows that those drones that died in First Contact died because of somesort of feedback due to the Queens destruction, not by the destruction itself.


Okay, this makes sense - I must therefore concede that being completely cut off from the Collective is not fatal.


However, the loss of communication still often impairs them - the drones in the previously mentioned examples - and I'm not sure how efficiently they will be able to fly a vessel designed around the crew being in telepathic contact with each other if they can't hear each other anymore and half the crew's cracking up.


you don't know that for sure. yes we have seen it done on single drones in I Borg and Decent, but at the same time, for all we know, the grouping of thousands of drones would be enough to break through any jamming.


Why would it break through the jamming? Each Borg's signal is exactly the same power as every other's.


look Vorta, we have seen it before when the collective will cut off a ship becuase it was infected with some sort of virus. therefore it should work in reverse should the Uniplex be infected by a virus as well.


Why would it work in reverse? If there's a protocol for Borg vessels to cut themselves off from the Collective if they're infected, then logically the uni-plex should cut itself off from the Collective when it gets infected, surely?


and what errors would those be? there was no time stamp on that first attack, nor was there any indication that borg were ready for the attack on the planet.


No, Voyager found a Borg tactical database saying the conflict had been going on for five months, and we see the planet being destroyed after this point; after that, Seven says that the Borg project their defeat to be imminent.


Additionally, I find it hard to believe that after five months of having multiple planets destroyed and being on the brink of defeat, the Borg were not on a state of permanent high alert against the possibility of attack, bearing in mind they knew their attackers could reach any of their planets apparently at will.


as for the so-called snide remarks, well sorry if you were offended by them, but i am simply calling them as i se them.


But you weren't - you were actually giving completely erroneous details in the posts you were using them in!


I'm sorry, but to be blunt, in past debates I've been in with you you've come up with some extremely strange ideas that would have seen you ridiculed in many other venues, even within this forum - I mean, the Borg Cube self-destructing in First Contact for no reason? PhD TIE pilots? Punches in the face being a type of exothermal chain reaction? "Interpreting" statements while ignoring their author and refusing to explain why your "interpretation" makes sense? First Contact scenes being non-canon? Can you imagine the reception that the first and last ones in that list would have had in the movie forum of this very board?


Despite this, I still tried to address these points in a relatively civilised manner with you, without having to resort to roll eyes smileys and snide remarks for as long as possible; I mean, instead I could have "called it like I saw it" and simply insulted you and made fun of your argument from the word go - is that really the sort of "debate" you want? Or can we lay off the unnecessary extra comments and at least attempt to debate in a relatively neutral tone?


and you are neglecting one major difference between the two, the borg were unable to assimilate 8472 or their bio tech, while they can and will assimilate imperial officers and their tech.


What has that got to do with it being 'one battle early in the war' or them being surprised? Those were the only reasons you gave for the Borg not manouevring against the planet destroyers in that battle.


if there was some sort of link between the ship and the Death Star (more likely in a fighter then a corvette) then the borg would just use that connection to get all the info that they needed on their primary target.


There isn't a link like that; they're not on wi-fi with the Death Star main computer. Otherwise all anyone would have to do get the Death Star plans (or anything else, for that matter) would be to steal a TIE Fighter and hire a slicer.


and yet it clearly shows that all it takes is a little ego stroking and, depending on the officer, they will sing like a canary.


It was more than a little ego stroking - he was trying to actually marry Princess Leia and convert her to his cause, and even then he only revealed the details after she deliberately pumped him for information. Plus, you can't really use the example of one man to assume that all Imperials will act exactly like this.


And again, the information she managed to get wasn't the sort of information - i.e. the frequencies - that the Borg would need to counter the weapons.


well there is one possibility right there, the rebles had many spies in the empire, esepcially after Alderaan was destroyed. therefore this person could very well be a reble sympathiser that is trying to get a report off when he is captured and assimilated. either way, again, it has been proven that all it takes is a little ego strokeing witht he right officer for them to sing.


But don't you see what a convoluted, improbable scenario you need to occur for this to work?


The Borg, in all of the quadrillions of cubic metres of space surrounding the Death Star, just happen to come out of transwarp near an Imperial patrol to assimilate a crew member who just happens to be a rebel saboteur who just happens to be having an affair with a Death Star engineer who just happens to have been working on the weapon systems and who just happens to be weak-willed enough to give away detailed classified information about turoblaser frequencies.


Not to mention the issue of quite why a Rebel saboteur would want to learn turoblaser frequencies in the first place or why the engineer in question never thought it was a bit odd for her lover to be randomly asking her about precise turbolaser frequencies...


It's just... not an even remotely probable scenario; it needs an astronomical amount of coincidences falling into the Borg's lap for them to pull it off.


which picard would not have known about.


This has already been explained multiple times - the Borg already had that information. They don't in this scenario.


Locutos as much as admitted that his knowledge HELPED THEM to prepare for the deflector attack


Indeed, it told them which of those frequencies - which the Borg already possessed - the deflector attack was going to use, i.e. the ones which damaged the Cube in the first attack, which he'd been told they were going to use.


Again, this isn't relevant to this scenario because the Borg don't already have those frequencies as they did in BOBW.


and you are forgetting one thing here vorta, that is that SW ships are large and bulky, not made for the type of manuvers that you see trek ships do.


Indeed (and for that matter, neither are Borg Cubes), but Marshall and I were simply talking about whether the Fortressa was stationery or not, we weren't assuming it was doing fancy evasive manouevres.


 

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Jun. 12 2011, 9:58 am

There were many Lucrehulk-class LH-3210 ships around Naboo and I don't think I seen any of them move once the entire movie, even during the space battles.


There was no reason for them to - they were forming a blockade around the planet. They don't really do anything in the movie other than launch troops and shoot a bit at the Queen's yacht; by the time the Droid Control Ship is attacked, they're not even at Naboo anymore.


The whole point orf that is that it's entirely possible that it was stationary in the novel as well and thus a prime target for the death star. If the ship was moving but in a predictable path it would still be possible to calculate where it will be and target the ship too without the ability to fire off-axis.


Indeed - but the Borg also fly their vessels in predictable paths; they would represent the same kind of prime target for the superlaser.


Sure a Death Star could try to target a Borg Cube with the super laser but it wouldn't.  This attack on the capital ship in the novel was for testing purposes only.  The original Death Star's superlaser was designed to fire at planets.  They said that hitting the capital ship was not an easy target.  The original did not have the advanced targetting system that the Death Star II had to fire at ships with more ease.  Like with the X-wings in Episode 4, the Death Star would just use its other weapons to attack the Cube.


I'd possibly disagree; the attack on the Fortressa was a test to see if the superlaser could handle hitting (comparatively) small targets; it was able to. It wasn't the formal test of the superlaser itself (that came later on Despayre) and wasn't planned; they were just using the opportunity that fell into their lap.


Since they proved that it was actually able to target ships in a combat situation, I don't see a reason why they wouldn't at least attempt to use the superlaser in a similar situation if they're able to - it's not like it will cost them anything if it misses, and if it hits they will have potentially saved Imperial lives and resources.


The only reasons that would prevent them from doing so would be if the Cube happens to approach the station from behind or if there is a planet behind the Cube which they don't want to risk hitting if they miss.

FltAdmlHyperViper

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Report this Jun. 12 2011, 10:13 am

Well I still say the Borg Cub and it spheres could win because they can adapt to any enemy fire including torpedoes. Plus contrary to popular belief the Borg Cubes don't usually travel alone. But Starfleet has defeated the Borg and could easily wide out the Empire and it's so called Death Stars especially now that we have more than our fare share of allies including the Klingons.


Fleet Admiral Hyper Viper

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Jun. 12 2011, 12:29 pm

Well I still say the Borg Cub and it spheres could win because they can adapt to any enemy fire including torpedoes.


Not any enemy fire; the Species 8472 weapons were too powerful for them, one-hit killing Borg Cubes, and the superlaser would similarly destroy the Cube in a single shot.


Similarly, the station has tens of thousands of anti-capital ship weapons; even bringing a small percentage of these to bear on the Cube would destroy it in a single salvo simply from sheer weight of fire, not giving them a second chance to adapt.


Additionally, even shields that have adapted to a weapon cannot hold out indefinitely; in First Contact, the Borg Cube's shields had failed and the vessel was being damaged after a prolonged battle with the Federation fleet despite having adapted to Federation weapons, and Malcolm Reed was able to blast through the shields of the drones they encountered in Regeneration simply by doubling the firepower output of the phase pistols, despite having adapted to those weapons earlier in the episode.


Plus contrary to popular belief the Borg Cubes don't usually travel alone.


Indeed, but the scenario of this thread did specify a single Cube verses the Death Star.


But Starfleet has defeated the Borg and could easily wide out the Empire and it's so called Death Stars especially now that we have more than our fare share of allies including the Klingons.


I'd have to disagree with you on that one - the Empire is spread over two thirds of a galaxy; conversely, the Alpha Quadrant powers have only part of one quadrant. Bearing in mind how long Voyager was projected to return home at maximum warp, it would take them centuries to actually reach all the various parts of the Empire, let alone mount a campagin to defeat them, and they would be severely outnumbered; they simply wouldn't have the manpower to hold planets, especially against an opponent that clones its own soldiers.

Khoufu_Khorushu

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Report this Jun. 13 2011, 9:01 pm

It's simple, really. The few TIE fighters taht get in take out the defences from teh inside, or something, communications are jammed between te Borg if that doesn't work, and the Death Star blasts the Borg cube out of the sky. It might even do it when the Borg cube's defences are up, after all it has destroyed a planet before.

chr33355

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Report this Jun. 13 2011, 9:18 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>If the cube knew of the thermal port weakness, do you think they could destroy the death star that way?

>
  no the borg have no way of getting close enough to target the port with out getting blown to peices by the Death Star's defenses.


Vorta_the_point

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Report this Jun. 15 2011, 2:00 pm

I could look up other examples with those ships later to see if they move around more but the point is, they had little reason to move being over 2000km away they thought they were out of range and could launch fighters at a safe distance.


They'd launched the fighters already, though; presumably the vessel would either move in to support the fighters or retreat and escape from the soon to be approaching Star Destroyers.


Vessels aren’t prime targets for the superlaser period.


Indeed, planets are - but that doesn't preclude them from being used against other targets if appropriate. For example, star fighter laser cannons are designed primarily to be used against other fighters in space - but that didn't stop Anakin from using them against Droidekas whilst the ship was on the ground in Episode I.


The reference books state that the second death star’s targeting system made it designed to attack capital ships.  Why would they need to put one in if it already had the ability?


The second was given advanced targeting systems to allow it to target capital ships more easily and with greater accuracy.


Yes they had the mindset of testing the superlaser so they tested it.  It’s not a weapon they would normally use against ships otherwise which is why its got all the torrents and ships onboard.


The superlaser can only target one ship at a time, and may have a certain recharge time; the other weapon systems are needed to engage multiple ships coming from different directions (especially if they close to a range too close for the superlaser to hit).


Shooting a ship that they didn’t even know was in range sounds more like an experiment than a combat situation to me.


I believe that they actually knew it was in range - Tenn confirmed that they'd got more than enough power to reach that far.


Perhaps they just got lucky with their shot and concluded later that they couldn’t target ships afterall.


That would seem to go against Tenn's assessment of their ability to target the vessel; despite it not being an easy target, he said that it would be "no problem" for his crew and that if they had sufficient power in the reactor to do so, he would hit it.


This would explain why they never did it again or felt the need to put in a targeting system in the second death star.


They never used it again because they never engaged a capital vessel again; similarly, it was quite likely that the weapon's performance at the Battle of Despayre showing how useful the superlaser could be as an anti-ship weapon encouraged the upgrade of its successor's targeting systems and rate of fire to give this role even greater prevalence.


The borg have the ability to react to fatal weapons.  Like how one backed off from Voyager before they would have been destroyed by a transphasic torpedo.  Or when one moved themselves into the path of one to protect voyager and other instances avoided blasts from bioships.  In these cases the bioships were more maneuverable and in point blank range.  Plus they had enough sense to try to escape from their exploding planet at the end of episode scorpion pt 1. 


Those aren't really examples of actual evasive manoeuvring though - they either ran away when overwhelmed or, rather than manoeuvring evasively, actually flew into the path of such weapons to protect more important vessels. I don't remember them actually actively dodging blasts from the bioships, though.


Remember also that they don't actually know that the superlaser is a threat at this point, and won't until it actually blows them up.


I’d say it’s a waste of power and rediculously inefficient to try.  Firing all the torrents at once then, you’re practically guaranteed to hit it at least plus use up far less energy that can be used elsewhere.


I'd disagree; against a single capital ship, the superlaser is able to end the engagement in 30 seconds and requires a tiny fraction of the station's power to do so (the 4% used against the Fortressa was considered overkill).


While the station's other defenses are obviously up to the job of destroying capital ships too, the superlaser is significantly quicker (potentially saving lives and resources that would be otherwise wasted) and gives no opportunity for escape to the targeted vessel.


For the sake of argument, I’m willing to concede that there’s a small possibility they would attempt to use the super laser against the cube and a small possibility they would hit it.  So in a hypothetical situation, the death star fires and misses.


Again, I'd disagree - the superlaser gunners indicated that they would have no problem hitting a target of that type despite it not being an easy target (after all, these were some of the most elite gunners in the Empire) and the scenario is almost identical - a single capital ship unexpectedly engages the station.


I don't see why they would react differently, especially now that they've actually shown in a combat situation that the superlaser can target vessels (and I suspect that Tarkin already knew that it was a possibility for the weapon to be used in this way before the Battle of Despayre, or else he wouldn't have even considered firing it as an option).


Alright I went ahead and looked up further examples of Lucrehulk-class LH-3210 cargo freighters.


...


I'd say this would be enough to prove that it's possible, if not a certainty, that the Fortressa was a stationary target.  Do you have examples of these ships moving around during a combat situation?


I was more trying to point out that we see other capital ships moving and launching/docking fighters (not specifically Lucrehulks) thus showing that fighters are able to launch from capital ships even when on the move; the Death Star itself, for example, launches TIE fighters to engage the X-Wings while moving towards Yavin IV.


I don't think we need specific examples of Lucrehulks fighting and moving to prove that they can - after, every other capital ship we've ever seen is able to move and shoot regular weaponry; why would Lucrehulks not be able to?


Additionally, the majority of the examples you give that we see Lucrehulks in are situations where the vessels were blockading or protecting the planet they were orbiting and thus were not supposed to abandon position;  in Episode II they were launching and forming up around Geonosis to escape, and in Episode III they were presumably trying to form a cordon to allow the Invisible Hand to escape.


Of the few references to the Death Star that do exist, I find the accuracy of questionable as well.  In the Death Star Technical Companion, they clearly state that the original Death Star is only capable of firing at full power.  This contradicts the events in that Death Star novel.


Those are ten year old books, though; retcons and additional information are bound to occur over time.


If the cube knew of the thermal port weakness, do you think they could destroy the death star that way?


I'd suggest not; the Cube's too large fit in the trench and we haven't seen torpedoes in Star Trek capable of performing the 90 degree snap turn needed (indeed, if their torpedoes are similar in size to those of the Federation, the torpedoes themselves might not actually physically fit in the exhaust port).


Firing a torpedo at the exhaust point straight "down" from range will glance off the shields (assuming the Borg would actually even be able to hit such a tiny target from that far away through shields and sensor jamming) and moving to a point within the shields would have them come under attack from the station's thousands of anti-capital ship weapons.


Get some drones aboard and sabotash their defenses at the right moment just like they did to enterprise in episode "regeneration"


The problem is actually getting the drones aboard in the first place - plus you'd also need rather a lot of drones, bearing in mind the numbers of secondary weapon systems the station has.


This is even simplier the borg thought of this before:  The borg launch multi-kinetic neutronic mines that assimilate ships and worlds within 5 light years.  Assuming this weapon fails to assimilate the Death Star, they could still use this to build a larger force. 


These weapons aren't something in the standard Cube's arsenal though (I would also suggest that they are extremely rare and potentially require a lot of resources to create, otherwise why do the Borg not utilise them regularly? They could have assimilated Earth without even having to engage Starfleet just by detonating one at Alpha Centuri).


Additionally, the nano-probes assimilate lifeforms, not vessels (which would obviously not be applicable to the Species 8472 vessels as they were actually lifeforms themselves).


I've been meaning to challenge this idea of the Death Star's "omni-jammers".  I think even if star wars jammers have the ability to jam into subspace, that still does not mean that it could disrupt a borg's connection to the hive.  We've seen in star trek that there are several layers of subspace.  These jammers may not have what it takes to break neural connections between borg.


The subspace jamming affects multiple "frequencies" (for want of a better word) of subspace - even the ship creating the jamming's own communications are affected.


Trek has access to technology that star wars does not, like transporters.  The borg do not need necessarily be limited to sending transmissions through space to reach borg.  An example of this is in episode "timeless" when they used a borg temporal transmitter to instantly communicate with seven in the delta quadrent from the alpha quadrent.  Who knows what other technology the borg have to counter these jamming devices.


Isn't this simply a method of sending subspace signals through time?

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