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If Insurrection had been an episode...

OtakuJo

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POSTS: 16362

Report this May. 24 2011, 6:36 am

I had the movie Insurrection playing on my ipod during work tonight (could only listen to it like an audioplay though...) and had an interesting thought.


Let's say perhaps that it was an episode of Star Trek instead of a movie, I'm wondering if it would be the kind of episode that TNG would make. I base this thought primarily on the behaviour of the Federation admiral and presumably Federation Council (who gave the order) in this.


It seems as though the behaviour of the Council especially is more morally ambiguous than the TNG (or TOS for that matter) Federation is likely to be. For this reason the plot of Insurrection feels very much like a DS9 or Enterprise episode, perhaps.


While not necessarily judging the quality of Insurrection or any of the aforementioned series, what are your thoughts on the matter? Would this plot have belonged as a Next Generation episode?


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

Trekker_Tokyo

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Report this May. 25 2011, 1:04 pm

Probably 2 episodes and they would have been good, but not great, thats why the movies was a let down.

Caalma

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Report this May. 25 2011, 1:55 pm

i love the part when picard knocks on the door and says, "How old are you?"


if it were a tv show it would probably have to be a DS9 episode. On TNG the enterprise crew very rarely stayed in one place long enough to make this work. and DATA would have made a great cameo(spelling?) on DS9.


"Do you think it's possible for two people to go back in time and correct a mistake that never should have happened?" ... "On this ship, anything is possible."

DammitJim6200

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Report this May. 27 2011, 1:33 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ May. 24 2011, 6:36 am

>

>I had the movie Insurrection playing on my ipod during work tonight (could only listen to it like an audioplay though...) and had an interesting thought.

>Let's say perhaps that it was an episode of Star Trek instead of a movie, I'm wondering if it would be the kind of episode that TNG would make. I base this thought primarily on the behaviour of the Federation admiral and presumably Federation Council (who gave the order) in this.

>It seems as though the behaviour of the Council especially is more morally ambiguous than the TNG (or TOS for that matter) Federation is likely to be. For this reason the plot of Insurrection feels very much like a DS9 or Enterprise episode, perhaps.

>While not necessarily judging the quality of Insurrection or any of the aforementioned series, what are your thoughts on the matter? Would this plot have belonged as a Next Generation episode?

>


Insurrection started out as a great idea then fizzeled, Patrick Stewart wanted it to be more of a love story the sudio didn't want that, Mike Piller had problems doing the movie with Voyager and DS9, so yes it probably would had been better as an episode, but where else can you see Picard being an action hero ?  

parrothead117

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POSTS: 299

Report this May. 31 2011, 5:31 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ May. 24 2011, 6:36 am

>

>It seems as though the behaviour of the Council especially is more morally ambiguous than the TNG (or TOS for that matter) Federation is likely to be.

>


I would actually question the premise here.  My last time through the series, I was struck by how often Starfleet (not perhaps the Federation per se) played sort of a bogeyman role.  Maybe not outright corrupt, but at least misguided.  "The Drumhead," "The Pegasus," and some other episodes flirted with that idea.


"We must strive to be more than we are, Lal. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." - Data, "The Offspring"

Sora

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Report this May. 31 2011, 7:24 pm

I think if Insurrection had been an episode, it probably would've been in the same category as Who Watches the Watchers from Season 3 of TNG. For some reason Insurrection always reminded me of that episode. Not really sure why.

Vger23

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Report this Jun. 01 2011, 12:22 pm

I hate to rub giant salt chunks into an open wound, but...


 


"What if Insurrection was an episode?"


It would have been in irrelevant, unengaging, undramatic episode as opposed to an irrelevant, unengaging, undramatic movie. Of course, in a TV series...this is much more forgivable than in films.

Ghostmojo

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Report this Jun. 01 2011, 12:33 pm

Quote: Vger23 @ Jun. 01 2011, 12:22 pm

>

>I hate to rub giant salt chunks into an open wound, but...

>"What if Insurrection was an episode?"

>It would have been in irrelevant, unengaging, undramatic episode as opposed to an irrelevant, unengaging, undramatic movie. Of course, in a TV series...this is much more forgivable than in films.

>


Exactly.


It would have been like Friends - the one with the dull story but Picard taps off (sort of) ...


to boldy go where no man has gone before

AtoZ2

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Report this Jun. 01 2011, 2:04 pm

Quote: DammitJim6200 @ May. 27 2011, 1:33 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ May. 24 2011, 6:36 am

>

 so yes it probably would had been better as an episode, but where else can you see Picard being an action hero ?  


 


You bedroom


Dipcard certainly was no action hero in the TV serie and barely made the grade as such in the movies.


"Thank Pitch Forks and Pointed Ears"

Vger23

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Report this Jun. 01 2011, 5:27 pm

Quote: AtoZ2 @ Jun. 01 2011, 2:04 pm

Quote: DammitJim6200 @ May. 27 2011, 1:33 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ May. 24 2011, 6:36 am

>

>

 so yes it probably would had been better as an episode, but where else can you see Picard being an action hero ?  

 

You bedroom


 


Well played, sir. Well played INDEED.


I AM KEE-ROCK!!

OtakuJo

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Report this Jun. 01 2011, 6:46 pm

Curious.


I have not intended for this to be a debate on the quality of Insurrection. Perhaps it would have made for a bad ep. ~~ Can't say for sure. But TNG is certainly not short on those.


I've heard some who believe that part of the problem was that the story was not "tight" enough for a movie. (Jury's still out on whether I believe them.)


And parrothead thanks for bringing up Drumhead and Pegasus. You make a good point. And it does seem to conform in some manner to the "Picard is always right" Rule, even while Starfleet Command is wrong.


(BOOK SPOILERS) In the novel Abyss, it is mentioned that Section 31 was involved with the construction and operation of the holo-ship. Although non-canon I find this also to be an interesting take on events.


And yeah I did hear that Piller had a lot of trouble getting his original ideas "approved", and that these may well have been better. It is not uncommon in Star Trek for a story to fail because of "too many cooks", or technical problems.


Here's some more things to ponder (strictly for fun!): If it were up to you, to make this a 42minute show, what would you cut? And do you see this story happening at the height of the Federation, when it has not been weakened by a major war?


Thoughts?


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

lostshaker

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Report this Jun. 01 2011, 9:54 pm

As I said on a similarly related post, I love Insurrection. I think it's the best of the TNG, and after watching it yesterday, I'm moving it to third place on my movie list... right behind TMP and TVH.


I will say Piller's original story, even if highly politial, is an interesting idea, and seemed like it could have had the sope many fans critize Trek Films for lacking. One key point of interest is how the story ended with Picard and crew arrested. This could have impacted Worf's presence on DS9. At the very least, DS9 would have to make one heavy acknowledgement to said event.

OtakuJo

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Report this Jun. 01 2011, 10:04 pm

Cool. If I'm not mistaken I think Insurrection was set a little bit after the events of DS9 (They reference "Dominion Negotiations" and the Son'a were allies of the Dominion during the war.) Which is a little inconsistent as Worf would have been Klingon Ambassador to Q'onos at that stage. Although it is possible that he hasn't gotten around to telling any TNG people yet.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

Vger23

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Report this Jun. 02 2011, 5:51 am

INS was released in 1998. DS9, and the Dominion War ended in 1999. So, DS9 was set in the same time roughly as S6 of DS9.

lostshaker

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Report this Jun. 02 2011, 7:39 am

I got the impression INS occurred before the end of DS9. It made more sense IMO that The Son'a were at first neutral during the war, went to Starfleet for the Duck Blind Mission, and then aligned themselves with the Dominion after the alliance with the Federation failed. The Dominion surely wouldn't have cared about 600 people. It's difficult for the relationship to work in reverse. How would the Son'a, previously aligned with the Dominion, suddenly build a relationship with the Federation and not attract attention? Any such alliance should warrant careful scrutiny.


At one point Ru'Afo also stated, "The Federation is old. In the past twenty four months, they've been challenged by every known power in the quadrant. The Borg, the Cardassians, the Dominion." First Contact (Stardate: 50893.5) occured sometime prior to DS9's fifth season episode, "In The Cards" (50929.4). So that should roughly place INS in DS9's 7th Season, IMO before "Penumbra" (52576.2) when they were established to be Dominion Allies.


Riker mentioned Dominon Negotiations, but I believe Sisko as well while the war was concurrent. I thought both sides had ongoing attempts while the war was in effect.


It is of course possible that the Son'a weren't entirely organized and existed in factions. Some aligned themselves with the Dominion while Ru'Afo attempted a solution with the Federation. Riker did mention they produced vast quantities of Ketracel White, so it remains a question if it had uses outside the Dominion. Although, the problem of attention would still seem to apply.

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