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The Deadelus Class Starship

lostshaker

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POSTS: 2293

Report this May. 25 2011, 8:48 am

Ah, but TOS DID give out dates. Take for example Tomorrow is Yesterday were Kirk is being interrogated by the Air Force MP. Kirk gets threatened that he will be locked up for 200 years if he doesn't cooperate, to which Kirk replis "That sounds about right." There's little bits here and there that let one know when the show was taking place. And after 2 to 3 years, while Roddenberry, and then his succesor, continue to challange the perseptions of the viewers with new ideas, certain things such as basic character interactions and settings are expected to be set up.


We never got any specific dates from TOS, as it was intentionally vague, sometimes mentioning 200, 300 and even 800 years. It was the reason for the invention of stardates. It took the movies and other series to truly pin a year down. If memory serves, the viewer couldn't identify the specific year of Kirk's mission by simply watching TOS. You'd have to go to other sources, and that's what I was originally referring to.


I look at the NX Enterprise and I think that, with the exception of the Bridge officers, the crew is already sharing quarters. And regardless of if the crew is okay with it or not, there comes a point where you can't get much work done with everyone having to share such limited resources. Roddenberry himself saif after Balance of Terror aired that he didn't like seeing the corridors so full all the time.


I don't know strictly about the Bridge Officers, but I imagine at least 2/3's of the crew paired up. And we were even shown bunkbeds. But ENT seemed to pair two crewmen per room, whereas the Excelsior via Tuvok's memories and Star Trek: TUC showed many bunkbeds in a single room. As to work being done, space confinement should be alleviated with 1/2 or 1/3 or the crew sleeping nearly all the time. And I certainly won't disagree with Roddenberry's note of packed corridors, but unfortunately numbers were given. It's up to us die hard fans to reconcile the numbers. Believe me, I'm all for personal space and Starfleet not packing in crewman... as I believe smaller numbers generally boost efficiency through personal committment. I'd like to believe that the Daedalus Class Starships started off with fewer crewmen and eventually expanded to include higher numbers by its decommissioning date or the reverse. Maybe the higher crew count is Starfleet's solution to red shirt losses.


And I don't really think Jeffires Tube design really has much impact on overall design of the rest of the ship. Yes the 24th Century Jeffries Tubes were small, but the crew quarters were just plain big.


My bad. I was being dry with my mentioning of the Jefferies Tubes. Did not intend for the comment to be taken with any seriousness.

guillermo.mejía

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Report this May. 25 2011, 5:56 pm

I submit on the dating issue, as both you and Matt said (i'm calling him matt from now on), the dates on the TOS era before the movies was sketchy at best. As yous aid, Roddenberry made up stardates to avoid the topic in the first place.


Again changing gears to the crew numbers issue, I have to remind myself that the point I'm trying to get at is that I believe the Deadalus is a larger class; if not I'd start rambling about interior configurations, which is a Pandora's box all its own. You bring up a logical perspective on crew accomodations on the NX class. But, as you stated: "I imagine at least 2/3's of the crew paired up. And we were even shown bunkbeds." I imagine the NX class indeed working like this. And if that is the case, and we know for a fact that the crew of the ship is aprox. 80 crew members, how can you assume the Deadalus class, with its canon standard compliment of 220+ crewmembers could fit in a ship roughly the same size as Archer's Enterprise. It's over 3 times the crew.


So say you have three bunk beds per room. It makes sense to have three duty shifts, or more. At any given moment, you have around 150 active crewmembers.


And before I forget, another argument for a bigger ship size is the 'neck' of the Deadalus.  If the ship were around the size of the NX, that would only be about one deck. That's a rather expossed and weak point. Even if it was a ship of exploration rather than a general purpose cruiser, Starfleet is aware of dangers out there, but from natural phenomena and hostile aliens alike. From a functionality standpoint, it could get crowded pretty fast with crew going both ways, even more so in emergencies.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

lostshaker

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POSTS: 2293

Report this May. 25 2011, 9:41 pm

Again changing gears to the crew numbers issue, I have to remind myself that the point I'm trying to get at is that I believe the Deadalus is a larger class...


Actually, thanks for rereminding me too!


And if that is the case, and we know for a fact that the crew of the ship is aprox. 80 crew members, how can you assume the Deadalus class, with its canon standard compliment of 220+ crewmembers could fit in a ship roughly the same size as Archer's Enterprise. It's over 3 times the crew.


You're right in that any size estimate is an assumption, and I'm open so long as the Daedalus doesn't surpass the size of the Constitution Class. My interpretation is based largely on the given sizes of the vessels and cross references, which can be found here: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/daedalus/daedalus-enterprise-comparison.jpg (I for one prefer the 140m Daedalus, as opposed to the 105m). Star Trek's various tech advisors, including Mike Okuda himself (who we both agree is a definitive source), offers the NX's length to be 225m with a crew of 83 and the Constitution Class to be 289m with a crew of ~200-400. The NX and the Constituion Class are roughly equal when comparing their saucers. Even with a secondary hull, it's a big jump to go to a crew of 430, which is an established number. It's one of the reasons why I'm quick to accept Pike's earlier crew compliment of 200 from "The Cage". But I think that the Daedalus has to be considered with respect to the NX and the Constitution Classes, which are more thoroughly definitive. But even if the Daedalus exceeds the NX's length of 225m, scale and proportion issues arise. For example, the internal volume quickly begins to surpass that of the Constitution; window sizes begin to greatly exceed those of the NX and the Constitution... And then of course it becomes difficult to imagine 430 people aboard a Constitution Class Ship when comparing it to the Daedalus. (I don't know how to post a picture, otherwise I'd submit it to illustrate the points above.)


I try to reconcile the size issue with intergalactic events. The NX has a low crew compliment, because the ship is focused on exploration. But then the Romulan Wars kick up and Starfleet shifts towards defense and higher crew compliments. Eventually, Starfleet shifts back to exploration with the original crew compliment for Constitution Class vessels. But then another shift in policy ups the red shirt duty roster... they really went through a lot of red shirts in the 2260's.


And before I forget, another argument for a bigger ship size is the 'neck' of the Deadalus.  If the ship were around the size of the NX, that would only be about one deck. That's a rather expossed and weak point. Even if it was a ship of exploration rather than a general purpose cruiser, Starfleet is aware of dangers out there, but from natural phenomena and hostile aliens alike. From a functionality standpoint, it could get crowded pretty fast with crew going both ways, even more so in emergencies.


You make a good point here. Interestingly, I believe the neck weakness also makes an effective argument for a ship that predates the NX Class.

Matthias Russell

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Report this May. 26 2011, 8:18 am

Well, I'd like those questions answered myself.


 


And there are videos on youtube of me dancing to dueling banjos at the space center.  Does that count?

guillermo.mejía

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Report this May. 26 2011, 3:02 pm

*wipes the sweat of my forehead* Phew....I think we had a good workout here lostshaker. All this time I thought you were defending the 105m estimate given by the original Fleet Manuals. Indeed, I also base my arguments on Ex Astris Scientia's arguments, with the exception that I would have perhaps extended the Deadalus Class a little more, but still smaller than the Constitution class of course. After all, there were only 12 like her in the fleet.


The real problem I'm still gonna be upset by is the way they chose to include the Deadalus in the relaunch novels. I will say however that still The Romulan War is great in how it tries to join TOS and ENT, even explaining the de-evolution of the look, and Captain Dunsel no less!!


And thanks for the sweet debate. between this and trying to defend the 2009 Kobyashi Maru test, I feel like I should have joined the debate team in college.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

guillermo.mejía

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Report this May. 26 2011, 3:04 pm

Quote: Matthias Russell @ May. 26 2011, 8:18 am

>

>Well, I'd like those questions answered myself.

>And there are videos on youtube of me dancing to dueling banjos at the space center.  Does that count?

>
...and do not think that remark would escape unnoticed.


First off, my money's on Section 31 controlling Trek. Is as good an explination as any.


And as to the dancing to banjos...Mirror Matt would be ashamed. lol


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

lostshaker

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POSTS: 2293

Report this May. 26 2011, 5:21 pm

All this time I thought you were defending the 105m estimate given by the original Fleet Manuals.


Got ya. I definitely concur that the Daedalus should be larger than 105m. I prefer the 140m estimate, particularly because it makes sense of the Daedalus' introduction in The Romulan Wars... though for official canon purposes I'll remain open to anything which doesn't exceed 264m. I think the Constitution Class should have more internal volume space than the Daedalus, and 264m looks like the breaking point.


The real problem I'm still gonna be upset by is the way they chose to include the Deadalus in the relaunch novels.


One of the reasons why I enjoyed the method of inclusion is that it took me by surprise. I assumed the Daedalus was built after the NX, but I enjoy the possibility of it being built prior to the NX Class. In ENT, Starfleet only had a small handful of ships in the early 2150's and the Romulan Wars were coming. I like the idea of Starfleet entering panic mode and ushering in older ships, possibly granting field commissions to cargo captains, etc... that would give Starfleet a strong lead for the cowboy diplomacy and what would become violations of the prime directive since so many captains wouldn't have received proper training.


And thanks for the sweet debate.


Thank you as well. I enjoy new angles of thought.



guillermo.mejía

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POSTS: 2852

Report this May. 27 2011, 6:35 pm

Oh, I was definately surprised by the idea that Deadalus older. Blame my acceptance of generalized fandom ideas. By the time the next book rolls out I'll be used to it I imagine, and it never really stopped me from enjoing The Romulan War.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

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