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The Deadelus Class Starship

guillermo.mejía

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Report this May. 22 2011, 7:55 pm

I have a special place for this forgotten little ship class, sitting alone on Sisko's desk. Since the first time I saw it there with its completely unique TOS era look I was just blown away that Starfleet had other ship that didn't look like the Contistution class (or Miranda class, for those who stillw ant to believe there was a TOS Miranda).


It's even more exciting to think that Enterprise considered using the Deadelus class as the tile ship, before the network forced them to use the now known Akira-prise.


These days the class has a prominent role in the Romulan War novels. I don't agree with their role here however. Basically, they are reintroduced as a class of Starship older than the Intrepid Type and the NX class, that was cjeaper than both so it was brought back to mass production to fight the war. Now, I have a problem with this for several reasons:


1. The ship has a distinct TOS look to it. I don't see how you can argue that these ships have a TOS look, the NX class looks much modern, but then we go back to the Deadelus class look for the 23rd Century?


2. Size. The NX and Intrepid types are small ships by Star Trek standards. For the Deadelus class design to work, it needs to be larger than the any other human ship of that time period. It seems illogical, pun intended, to say in the books that it was brought back because it was cheaper. Okay, maybe the NX had much more resource-heavy modern equipment, but if all Deadelus ships are refitted to fight the war, how can a bigger ship still be built 3 times faster?


3. Fleet design is out of sync with Starfleet practices. Starfleet's ships in ENT have a sleek look, that tells you these ships are from the same fleet. Also Starfleet is rather young here so I doubt they have an older ship that is such a radical departure from their current engineering idolegy for ship design.


I appreciate fully the Deadelus being brought back, but I wish it had been done as an evolution of Vulcans, Tellerites, Humans, and Andorians sharing technology, rather than this hard to fathom approach.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

Matthias Russell

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Report this May. 23 2011, 6:21 am

I loved it when the Pasteur appeared in AGT.  Though the Daedalus is a cool design, I'm glad it wasn't used for TOS.


Though I agree the way the Daedalus was introduced into the books made little sense, why they couldn't have just been post NX designs made to be assembled more quickly confuses me.  This canon/non-canon thing we could debate all day but basically, the franchise considers the relaunch books just as important as screen material as they have better editorial controls and trek is not planning anymore prime universe stuff.  The books are as real as anything on screen and probably have less mistakes and contradictions.


Chief Warrant Officer
Finn

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Report this May. 23 2011, 9:41 am

The USS Pasteur looks like a Excelsior refit on the older Daedalus class.

Matthias Russell

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Report this May. 23 2011, 11:53 am

I wish the Pasteur model had been used again some time.  I personally see no connection to the excelsior refit though.

Chief Warrant Officer
Finn

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Report this May. 23 2011, 2:01 pm

Quote: Matthias Russell @ May. 23 2011, 11:53 am

>

>I personally see no connection to the excelsior refit though.

>


Looking back at the pictures, you're right.  It's certainly an evolution of the Daedalus class, though.  I would say it's Excelsior era, though.  

guillermo.mejía

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Report this May. 23 2011, 4:25 pm

Forgive the wrong spelling guys.


And yes, the fact that it's a Matt Jeffries original is another reason I like the ship so much.


I remember thinking that when I saw the Pasteur's design, that maybe someday I'd get to see a canon appearence of the ship. Still waiting on taht one though.


On a side note, I was wondering cyber space not to long ago and came across an article in Ex Astris Scientia debating all things (or most) concerning the Deadalus and saw a conjectural design by M. Christopher Freeman that makes it so the ship has an ENT feel. It is an impresive design, better than anything Enterprise itself did in my opinion. If you haven't, I suggest you check it out.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

lostshaker

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Report this May. 23 2011, 8:02 pm

I love the explanation ENT: THE ROMULAN WARS: BENEATH THE RAPTOR'S WINGS offered, although I don't rememeber them going into too much detail in the design other than simple, outdated, and a step backwards.


1. The ship has a distinct TOS look to it. I don't see how you can argue that these ships have a TOS look, the NX class looks much modern, but then we go back to the Deadelus class look for the 23rd Century?


I agree the model in Sisko's office has a distinct TOS look to it. But M. Christopher Freeman's design, which can be found here http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/daedalus/daedalus-aethernaut.jpg, offers consistency with ENT's era. I'll return to second half of this question with point 3.


2. Size. The NX and Intrepid types are small ships by Star Trek standards. For the Deadelus class design to work, it needs to be larger than the any other human ship of that time period. It seems illogical, pun intended, to say in the books that it was brought back because it was cheaper. Okay, maybe the NX had much more resource-heavy modern equipment, but if all Deadelus ships are refitted to fight the war, how can a bigger ship still be built 3 times faster?


Why does the Daedalus have to be bigger than the NX in order to work? It would make more sense if Daedalus Class Ships were smaller, affording easier construction. Earth's going to war. Why build large ships that will probably be destroyed or at least severly damaged?


3. Fleet design is out of sync with Starfleet practices. Starfleet's ships in ENT have a sleek look, that tells you these ships are from the same fleet. Also Starfleet is rather young here so I doubt they have an older ship that is such a radical departure from their current engineering idolegy for ship design.


It's important to note the NX Class is representative of earth technology and the construction material of the time was a duranium alloy, as opposed to other casts like rodinium (TOS: Balance of Terror) or tritanium. It is possible that the original Daedalus Class vessels were constructed from duranium, and therefore similar in appearance to the NX and Freeman's design. The Daedalus had a lengthy commission span and it is reasonable to assume refits occurred. One such refit could have been an alternative alloy to duranium thereby shifting the Daedalus' appearance from an ENT look to a TOS look. Sisko's model could have been a reflection of a later refit, as opposed to the "original" design.

guillermo.mejía

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Report this May. 23 2011, 8:19 pm

I'm always happy to see big replies to whatever I post, so first off thanks lostshaker!


No issue with your # 1 and 3 comments since I too am a huge fan of Freeman's design, as I stated above. The only thing is that we have to be somewhat objective and remember that the actual canon ship is the model in Sisko's office, not the awesome Freeman design which would solve all problems.


As for your # 2 comments, if you read the Ex Astris Scientia article, you know what I mean by ship size. As I see in Memory Alpha to refresh my memory, the Deadalus class was mentioned in the TNG episode, 'Power Play' and stated as having a crew of 229. Now I know some will say "yeah, but it was never shown on screen so there's no connection between the Sisko model and the Essex" but if you read Michael Okuda's comments on the model, it was always intended to be the Essex/Horizon, and since Okuda is a big player in Trek, I'm willing to say his word is as close as it can get to canon without being canon.


Anyways, with a crew of 229, there's no way the ship can be the size of the NX class, with it's crew of around 80. It's just not going to happen by numbers alone, no matter how you slice it.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

lostshaker

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Report this May. 23 2011, 8:42 pm

I'm always happy to see big replies to whatever I post, so first off thanks lostshaker!


You're welcome. I myself enjoy engaging point/counterpoint, and our discussion at hand.


No issue with your # 1 and 3 comments since I too am a huge fan of Freeman's design, as I stated above. The only thing is that we have to be somewhat objective and remember that the actual canon ship is the model in Sisko's office, not the awesome Freeman design which would solve all problems.


I agree the ship is canon, but it is unknown if it is truly a Daedalus Class Ship. I myself concur with you, guillermo.mejia, as to the design's intentions and Michael Okuda's belief. I'm perfectly happy accepting it as the Daedalus, but complete objectivity also states an acknowledgement of the lack of direct evidence.


Anyways, with a crew of 229, there's no way the ship can be the size of the NX class, with it's crew of around 80. It's just not going to happen by numbers alone, no matter how you slice it.


I'm not convinced yet. The Enterprise 1701, under the command of Captain Pike, hosted a crew of ~203, but under Kirk 430. Crew capacity doubled. It is conceivable technological upgrades would reduce space of component parts and permit habitation. In "Trials and Tribble-ations", Dax noted how Starfleet packed the officers aboard the older ships. The size of the Daedalus isn't technically canan either, so I believe there's some wiggle room.

guillermo.mejía

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Report this May. 23 2011, 9:01 pm

Quote: lostshaker @ May. 23 2011, 8:42 pm

>

>I'm always happy to see big replies to whatever I post, so first off thanks lostshaker!

>You're welcome. I myself enjoy engaging point/counterpoint, and our discussion at hand.

>No issue with your # 1 and 3 comments since I too am a huge fan of Freeman's design, as I stated above. The only thing is that we have to be somewhat objective and remember that the actual canon ship is the model in Sisko's office, not the awesome Freeman design which would solve all problems.

>I agree the ship is canon, but it is unknown if it is truly a Daedalus Class Ship. I myself concur with you, guillermo.mejia, as to the design's intentions and Michael Okuda's belief. I'm perfectly happy accepting it as the Daedalus, but complete objectivity also states an acknowledgement of the lack of direct evidence.

>Anyways, with a crew of 229, there's no way the ship can be the size of the NX class, with it's crew of around 80. It's just not going to happen by numbers alone, no matter how you slice it.

>I'm not convinced yet. The Enterprise 1701, under the command of Captain Pike, hosted a crew of ~203, but under Kirk 430. Crew capacity doubled. It is conceivable technological upgrades would reduce space of component parts and permit habitation. In "Trials and Tribble-ations", Dax noted how Starfleet packed the officers aboard the older ships. The size of the Daedalus isn't technically canan either, so I believe there's some wiggle room.

>
I know, nothing is set in stone about this ship class, but if you need another nudge, I happily welcome the challenge.


The Cage is as experimantal as you can get. Nothing is set in stone here. No date as to when this is happening, Spock's character or nature of the UESPA that the Enterprise crew is part of. On the flip side, Kirk's TOS crew numbers, plus those given by Picard of the Essex crew come froma  more stable running show where, at least some more ground work has been laid out. So you can't really take a lot of what is said in the Cage as canon, only what appeared in The Menagerie I and II, and I don't believe the crew size was given in the playback in the court room, though i may be wrong. So really, I see the stronger more reliable figure as those of Kirk's ship.


On a side note, I cringe when I read people tring to explain things from The Cage such as the laser pistols or that the Warp barrier was broken just 18 years ago.


Almost lost myself in a rant there.....Regarding Dax's comment, yeah, that's true, but really, could you pack 200+ in a ship the size of the NX class? and if so, would it be functional anymore?


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

lostshaker

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Report this May. 23 2011, 9:40 pm

The Cage is as experimantal as you can get. Nothing is set in stone here. No date as to when this is happening, Spock's character or nature of the UESPA that the Enterprise crew is part of. On the flip side, Kirk's TOS crew numbers, plus those given by Picard of the Essex crew come froma  more stable running show where, at least some more ground work has been laid out. So you can't really take a lot of what is said in the Cage as canon, only what appeared in The Menagerie I and II...


While "The Cage" is experimental, and technically so was TOS, I do give them all leeway, including the other series. TOS never gave any real dates either, but was dated due to other series, particularly VGR. Pike's crew compliment is given in "The Menagerie", so I lean towards valid.


On a side note, I cringe when I read people tring to explain things from The Cage such as the laser pistols or that the Warp barrier was broken just 18 years ago.


One does have to let certain mistakes pass, though I don't necessarily cringe. I enjoy comparing different explanations.


...but really, could you pack 200+ in a ship the size of the NX class? and if so, would it be functional anymore?


I guess it really depends on the ship's mission. In VGR's "Flashback", we saw sleeping quarters aboard The Excelsior with multiple bunkbeds. It would be tight and claustrophoebic, but Starfleet engineers don't seem to have a problem with that aspect of ship design based on 24th Century Jefferies Tubes. All that being said, I'd much rather be a member of the NX and be permitted personal space.

Matthias Russell

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Report this May. 24 2011, 5:31 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>Thanks to the model on Sisko's desk, the Daedalus design IS canon.

>


I have models of fictional spaceships on my desk at a real spaceport, does that make them real?  I hope so, that means the Enterprise IS real!

Matthias Russell

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Report this May. 24 2011, 5:36 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>

>This canon/non-canon thing we could debate all day but basically, the franchise considers the relaunch books just as important as screen material as they have better editorial controls and trek is not planning anymore prime universe stuff.  The books are as real as anything on screen and probably have less mistakes and contradictions.

>

But who is "the franchise" now as far as CBS goes, Mr. Russell, following the end of the responsibilities of B&B and Manny Coto? The editor who oversees the Trek books for Pocket/Simon & Shuster? Or the person he/she no doubt answers to, the head of CBS Consumer Products? Should we consider the person who is charge of selling things with the Star Trek name on them the person now in charge of the Star Trek franchise?

As I see it, there is no one at the helm right now steering the ship, but there's a flea market set up on the hangar deck.


I've spoken with quite a few of the authors, all of whom are also fans.  Though they miss their former editors, those still writing for the franchise have great respect for the works of their fellow writers and are very causious to make sure they do not contradict each other.  And they don't just get to write a book and have it published.  They have to pitch ideas and have their final product reviewed just as scripts are.  Many of them have had concepts and drafts rejected so the world of Trek publishing is not a free for all.


 


If you don't believe me, go to the literature board at trekbbs.com where the authors frequent.  They will let you know who Trek publishing works if you maybe want to reinforce your feelings or be open to accepting them.


guillermo.mejía

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Report this May. 24 2011, 2:21 pm

I wish that were true Captain Sato! But canonically, we know there is a ship on Sisko's desk. That's it. The name Deadalus and that ship have never been related, canon-wise. This is were my frustration stems from!


I'm still not done with lostshaker by the way!


While "The Cage" is experimental, and technically so was TOS, I do give them all leeway, including the other series. TOS never gave any real dates either, but was dated due to other series, particularly VGR. Pike's crew compliment is given in "The Menagerie", so I lean towards valid.


Ah, but TOS DID give out dates. Take for example Tomorrow is Yesterday were Kirk is being interrogated by the Air Force MP. Kirk gets threatened that he will be locked up for 200 years if he doesn't cooperate, to which Kirk replis "That sounds about right." There's little bits here and there that let one know when the show was taking place. And after 2 to 3 years, while Roddenberry, and then his succesor, continue to challange the perseptions of the viewers with new ideas, certain things such as basic character interactions and settings are expected to be set up.


I guess it really depends on the ship's mission. In VGR's "Flashback", we saw sleeping quarters aboard The Excelsior with multiple bunkbeds. It would be tight and claustrophoebic, but Starfleet engineers don't seem to have a problem with that aspect of ship design based on 24th Century Jefferies Tubes. All that being said, I'd much rather be a member of the NX and be permitted personal space.


I look at the NX Enterprise and I think that, with the exception of the Bridge officers, the crew is already sharing quarters. And regardless of if the crew is okay with it or not, there comes a point where you can't get much work done with everyone having to share such limited resources. Roddenberry himself saif after Balance of Terror aired that he didn't like seeing the corridors so full all the time.


And I don't really think Jeffires Tube design really has much impact on overall design of the rest of the ship. Yes the 24th Century Jeffries Tubes were small, but the crew quarters were just plain big. I leave Scotty to help me here:


"Laddy, in my day, not even an Admiral had such quarters!"


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

Matthias Russell

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Report this May. 25 2011, 4:37 am

I wouldn't take too much care to make logical sense of some of the TOS technology and date references, even in TAS their technology timeline was screwy.


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