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The Magicks of Megas-tu

jesusismyadvocate

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POSTS: 248

Report this May. 19 2011, 12:28 am

Basically this episode is about how Lucifer or the Devil is actually a good guy and a long lost friend of humanity... I'm thinking this might be one of the worst episode idea of all time. What are your thoughts?


So this dyslexic walks into a bra...

Matthias Russell

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POSTS: 7705

Report this May. 19 2011, 4:21 am

I agree.  It really gauled me to have the Devil painted as a friend, helper, and lover of humanity.  I know Trek tries to help you view things from another perspective but I thought this was a little too close to home.  If this creature which has always been painted as the evilest of the evil is said to be a good guy, what does that say of the benevolent beings?

Lieutenant_Jedi

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Report this May. 19 2011, 11:07 am

This episode really showed the GR vision of humanities future - "evolving" beyond religious ideals and structures. 


Not my idea of a good future. 


 


"Can you detect midi - chlorians with a tricorder?"

Matthias Russell

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POSTS: 7705

Report this May. 19 2011, 12:05 pm

It was an interesting plot concept but Who Mourns for Adonis did it much better and in a much less offensive way.

Trekwolf164

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Report this May. 19 2011, 12:11 pm

Look at it this way we members of Star Trek.com must obey rules in order to continue to be a member.


So if the Devil is on Earth and he starts helping the humans,The other members of his race have a look but don't touch policy.


They go to Earth and excise their member and vilify him to the natives.


The look of the alien and the fact that others as strong or stronger removed him for being a criminal is passed down over camp fires Heaven and Hell are born in the human thought process.


 

Invader_Wishfire

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Report this May. 19 2011, 2:08 pm

Quote: Matthias Russell @ May. 19 2011, 4:21 am

>

>If this creature which has always been painted as the evilest of the evil is said to be a good guy, what does that say of the benevolent beings?

>


It's not supposed to say anything of the benevolent beings. It's supposed to say something about our own perceptions, especially when seen through the tainted filters of thousands of years.


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Matthias Russell

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Report this May. 19 2011, 3:51 pm

It isn't a perception from oral traditions, it is an individual many if us believe to be a real person who is right now causing bad things who is described in a document as being the source of all our problems.

The apollo story said something about perceptions and did it with a character no one believes in. That story explored this idea in a much more sensitive way.

I don't believe Mohammed was anyone holy, but I'm sensitive enough to people who believe he was to not portray him in a contrary light that muslims would find offensive.

guillermo.mejía

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Report this May. 19 2011, 5:09 pm

This episodes serves as a good way to show 'The Great Bird of the Galaxy's' one weakness, and that was his atheism. I don't think humanity can move forward succesfully but disregarding faith in all its forms. Faith and religious ideas have been with us from day way. They won't just disappear in just 2 centuries.


Disclaimer: My thoughts.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

toranaprem

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Report this May. 19 2011, 6:42 pm

I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. Than again, I am a Pagan and used to having my Gods called Devils.


I mean, look at the image of the Devil used in the episode, and in mainstream culture. The Devil is merely the image of satyr (sacred companion of the Great Gods Dionysos and Pan) whose holy images some Christians decided at one point to conflate with their own ideas of ultimate evil because it suited their purposes at the time to do so.


Abrahamic monotheists are welcome to their conception of the Devil. It's as far as I'm concerned their theological perogative, however, I do get pissed off when they start equating their concept of ultimate evil with OTHER PEOPLE'S GODS. You're offended that this episode made light of the Devil? I'm offended that Christians associate one of my GODS with your Devil! There's plenty to get offended about where religion is concerned, so seriously, cry me a river.


Frankly, I don't care if it offends someone to see the Devil portrayed as a good guy, especially if they think they have the right (by virtue of their numbers and ability to bully)l to perpetuate the idea that other people's Gods are the Devil in the first place.

Invader_Wishfire

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Report this May. 19 2011, 6:58 pm

Quote: Matthias Russell @ May. 19 2011, 3:51 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>It isn't a perception from oral traditions, it is an individual many if us believe to be a real person who is right now causing bad things who is described in a document as being the source of all our problems.

On the contrary, it is about perception. People who believe he exists believe he is evil solely because of those documents. That's their perception, based on one-sided arguments, about an entity that no one has actually seen. Who's to say that those one-sided arguments are correct?

The apollo story said something about perceptions and did it with a character no one believes in. That story explored this idea in a much more sensitive way.

That story also had twice as long to do it.

I don't believe Mohammed was anyone holy, but I'm sensitive enough to people who believe he was to not portray him in a contrary light that muslims would find offensive.


Taking the idea of a devil and saying "well, what if he was actually an alien?" isn't being insensitive. Besides, the same idea has been brought forth about Jesus, so why not Lucifer?


Besides, the idea of Lucifer being some sort of evil entity isn't even Biblical; the only time Lucifer is mentioned by name is in the book of Isaiah, in a passage that refers to a Babylonian king who has been defeated (fallen) in battle.


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Matthias Russell

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Report this May. 20 2011, 5:28 am

The Devil or Satan aren't even his original name, these were given him as labels meaning Slanderer and Accuser.  The Bible itself doesn't label that creature as Lucifer, though many have accepted this label to mean him.  So, yes, the concept of an evil Lucifer isn't biblical.

Lieutenant_Jedi

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Report this May. 20 2011, 7:28 am


The Hebrew word translated “Lucifer” means “shining one.” The Septuagint uses the Greek word that means “bringer of dawn.” Hence, some translations render the original Hebrew “morning star” or “Daystar.” But Jerome’s Latin Vulgate uses “Lucifer” (light bearer), and this accounts for the appearance of that term in various versions of the Bible.


Jerome's use of that word in Latin is why it is in the King James Version. The KJV got the majority of its translation cues from the Latin Vulgate.

As pointed out by Wishfire, that verse in Isaiah is referring to a King of Babylon, not to a mighty spirit creature. 

(Isaiah 14:16) 16 Those seeing you will gaze even at you; they will give close examination even to you, [saying,] ‘Is this the man that was agitating the earth, that was making kingdoms rock, 


In fact a King of Babylon was brought down for his arrogance, King Nebuchadnezzar. (Daniel 4:29-37)

The Bible does describe Satan, and lists his actions, but he is not the person referenced in Isaiah and is never given the name Lucifer. 

How is Satan described in the Bible? 



(John 8:44) 44 YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]. 


Is that true?


(Genesis 3:4-5) 4 At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be open and you bound to be like God, knowing good and bad"


Adam and Eve died as result of their disobedience, and Satan - the animating force moving the "serpent" - told the first lie. 

Satan also fit the legal definition of manslayer - a person who's actions lead to the death of another. 



(Revelation 12:9-10) 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 



Is Satan justly called an "accuser"?



(Job 1:6-11) 6 Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them. 7 Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where do you come from?” At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.” 8 And Jehovah went on to say to Satan: “Have you set your heart upon my servant Job, that there is no one like him in the earth, a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad?” 9 At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “Is it for nothing that Job has feared God? 10 Have not you yourself put up a hedge about him and about his house and about everything that he has all around? The work of his hands you have blessed, and his livestock itself has spread abroad in the earth. 11 But, for a change, thrust out your hand, please, and touch everything he has [and see] whether he will not curse you to your very face.” 



(Job 2:2-5) 2 Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Just where do you come from?” At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.” 3 And Jehovah went on to say to Satan: “Have you set your heart upon my servant Job, that there is no one like him in the earth, a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad? Even yet he is holding fast his integrity, although you incite me against him to swallow him up without cause.” 4 But Satan answered Jehovah and said: “Skin in behalf of skin, and everything that a man has he will give in behalf of his soul. 5 For a change, thrust out your hand, please, and touch as far as his bone and his flesh [and see] whether he will not curse you to your very face.”



As it known - Satan tried everything to break Job's integrity, and yet Job remained faithful.
Here we also get a cue on Satan's view of mankind. He views us as selfish beings that will stop serving God as soon as it is convenient. He also thinks that we will gladly give up anything to save our lives. How insulting!

Other verses describe Satan and those who serve him


(Ephesians 6:10-12) . . .. 11 Put on the complete suit of armor from God that YOU may be able to stand firm against the machinations of the Devil; 12 because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.



(2 Corinthians 11:14-15) 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works.



(1 John 5:19) 19 We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one. 


And there are many others. Satan is REAL, and actively tries to hide his presence. He controls many aspects of today's world, and is still attempting to mislead mankind. 
I feel sorry for anyone who worships him, as he will fail, and will fail them. 

So although "Lucifer" in Isaiah does not describe Satan, the Bible plainly identifies him as an enemy to those who want to serve God. 



"Can you detect midi - chlorians with a tricorder?"

marioffontes

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POSTS: 14

Report this Jul. 30 2011, 5:08 pm

Quote: Lieutenant_Jedi @ May. 19 2011, 11:07 am

>

>This episode really showed the GR vision of humanities future - "evolving" beyond religious ideals and structures. 

>Not my idea of a good future. 

>


I thought the concept was brilliant, but the way they executed it in this episode was ok. It would've made more sense as an hour long episode. Even if it was on a different series like TNG. A Half hour is too short to explain something like that.


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