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the borg as symbolism

parrothead117

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Report this May. 14 2011, 11:19 pm

Unfortunately, the Borg represent Americans' ideological caricature of communism.  At least, I'm 99% positive that's what they are supposed to stand for.


"We must strive to be more than we are, Lal. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." - Data, "The Offspring"

Matthias Russell

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Report this May. 15 2011, 6:12 pm

Wow.  Not like Christianity AT ALL.  The Borg are definitely NOTHING like the first century Christians at all.  They even refused to ever take up arms.  They preached a message of peace, this didn't change until about the 3rd century when Christendom was more Roman than Christian.


 


You want to compare them to the Spanish Inquisition, okay.  But the concept of conquering under the guise of an ideology has happened among adherants of virtually all religions, races, and nationalities.


Trajan

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Report this May. 15 2011, 7:39 pm

I've lived in the People's "Republic" of China for nearly 4 years now, and for whoever said that the Borg represented an American's vision of communism, try living in a Communist country for a few months.  


It doesn't take much to demonize communism.  As a system of government, it is a proven failure.  Find one Communist regime that has ever possessed any of the positive aspects of socialism.  


There aren't any.  Communism is the most corrupt form of government in the world today, and I hope we don't have anyone here moronic enoug to actually put their faith in that sort of government.


 


As for the topic at hand, I don't think the Borg were representive of anything in particular, but if one were searching for a parallel, Communism may be the closest thing to it in real life.  


The idea of a social collective, without personal identity, working together for the common good of said collective is pure Marxism.

Matthias Russell

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Report this May. 16 2011, 4:17 am

Not that I'm communist but when you look at pure communist/Marxist ideals, they are quite good and could build a great society where everyone has equal opportunities to thrive. However, 20th century "communist" governments built upon the teachings of Lenin, Mao, and others weren't REALLY communist but totalitarianism or military oligarchies, and once again decidedly Roman.

Just like many calling themselves Christian show themselves not to be by their deeds, most Communists ignore the creed they claim to follow. The ideals this world is built upon are Roman.

Ezri Janeway

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Report this May. 16 2011, 5:02 am

I would say they are symbolic of those humans who hold a very narrow view of the world, believe they are 100% right and expect others to fall in line without question and by force of neccessary, be in politics religion or anywhere. The Borg are a perfect dictatorship.


But I dont think they specifically represented Communism as they were created after the whole 'commie panic' had been largly eradicated as something for society as a whole to fear.


If you want to see alien representatives of Communism go back to the alien invader films of the 50's.

Matthias Russell

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Report this May. 16 2011, 5:07 am

If I remember correctly, the TOS Klingons were meant to symbolize Russia and the Romulans China. There are many takes on totalitarianism in Trek.

Trajan

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Report this May. 16 2011, 6:21 am


"Not that I'm communist but when you look at pure communist/Marxist ideals, they are quite good and could build a great society where everyone has equal opportunities to thrive. However, 20th century "communist" governments built upon the teachings of Lenin, Mao, and others weren't REALLY communist but totalitarianism or military oligarchies, and once again decidedly Roman."



The "ideals" found in communism are ridiculously absurd for a plethora of reasons.


The simplest and most obvious reason was put by Frank Zappa. "Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff."


Additionally, Communism takes away individual thought, individual creativity, individual acheivement, and individual freedom.


Reducing humanity to one mass lump of "equality" is ridiculous on the face of it.


Humans are not equal, nor should anyone be striving to force it so.  We are all born different.  Some are bigger, some stronger, some faster, some are more intelligent, some are better looking, and so on.


The notion of equality is a joke.  What we must understand is this.


People should be protected equally under the law. 


Other than that, it is no one's place, most especially the government's, to step in and tell (or force) its citizens how they should think, feel, behave, etc...


 



"If I remember correctly, the TOS Klingons were meant to symbolize Russia and the Romulans China. There are many takes on totalitarianism in Trek."



The Romulans did not symobolize China.  They were obviously representative of the Romans.  The name Romulus itself should have made things apparent, as well as the rank names such as "proconsul" and "prateorius." 


 



parrothead117

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Report this May. 16 2011, 7:26 am

Quote: Trajan @ May. 15 2011, 7:39 pm

>

>I've lived in the People's "Republic" of China for nearly 4 years now, and for whoever said that the Borg represented an American's vision of communism, try living in a Communist country for a few months.

>


I don't understand why you directed this comment at my post.  I believe the Borg were intended to represent communism; why would conditions in a communist country have any bearing on my interpretation of the Trek screenwriters' intent?


"We must strive to be more than we are, Lal. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." - Data, "The Offspring"

wissa

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Report this May. 16 2011, 7:44 am

The borg represent our fear of technology and the loss of individuality.


We welcome st.com refugees! click on the image

Matthias Russell

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Report this May. 16 2011, 9:44 am

As I said, the ideals of communism are lofty but they would NOT get rid of individual creativity and limit personality. Its interpretation of it has, though. The problem with idealist political, religious, and social philosophy is that people have the natural inclination to oppress and control others. A perfect system of happy people cannot exist when operated by thoroughly flawed humans.

And, duh, the "roman" in romulan is obvious, but the comparison to communist china HAS been made by individuals within the franchise.

luvy4532

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Report this May. 16 2011, 10:34 am

Most Borg were forced to become one. They were regular people living their lives on their planets when the borg ( whoever was an origional borg besides the Queen? ) assimulated then.  That being true reminds me of countries during WWII that were invaded by the Germans, and later in Hungary by the Russians. Any form of government that takes over and tells people how to think and live are represented by the Borg.


live long and.....

Trajan

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Report this May. 16 2011, 6:45 pm

Quote: parrothead117 @ May. 16 2011, 7:26 am

>

>I don't understand why you directed this comment at my post.  I believe the Borg were intended to represent communism; why would conditions in a communist country have any bearing on my interpretation of the Trek screenwriters' intent?

>


Actually, you said the borg represented America's "ideological caricature of communism."


I used your post to make a broad and general point.  Anyone supporting the notion of Communism, or anyone who believes Americans have somehow demonized the stoic nature of the benevolent Communist system should actually try living in a Communist country before forming those opinions.


And I don't mean visiting one as a tourist either.  I mean actually try living in one.  See what you think.

Trajan

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Report this May. 16 2011, 6:50 pm

Quote: Matthias Russell @ May. 16 2011, 9:44 am

>As I said, the ideals of communism are lofty but they would NOT get rid of individual creativity and limit personality. Its interpretation of it has, though. The problem with idealist political, religious, and social philosophy is that people have the natural inclination to oppress and control others. A perfect system of happy people cannot exist when operated by thoroughly flawed humans. And, duh, the "roman" in romulan is obvious, but the comparison to communist china HAS been made by individuals within the franchise.


The ideals of Communism are not lofty.  They're stupid.


And anyone who HAS compared the Romulans to Red China have NO CLUE what they're talking about.  There is absolutely zero connection there.


In fact, I'd like a source or quotes from anyone "within the franchise" who have made this comparison.  It is probably one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard in relation to the Star Trek franchise.  Which is saying a lot.

ColPeg

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Report this May. 16 2011, 8:20 pm

I never saw the Borg as any political stand.


When I saw the Voyager episodes - Scorpion and The Gift - I made the connection of the Borg being like Gangs.


7 of 9 was in a gang and tried to assimulate the Voyager crew for her gang.  But through compassion and empathy Janeway saw the chance to bring 7 back to her human self.  Talk didn't work - 7 still resisted.  It wasn't til Janeway touched 7 (in the brig) that 7's guard started breaking down.  The human touch.


It's possible that gang members don't really have the human touch.  There are many ways to be touched - in fighting, medical needs, sexual - all that doesn't have the true love and relationship needed in a totaly fulfilled life.


Star Trek is more than a TV show.  It brings the lives current and closest to us - especially in the news and can give ideas of how to reach out.


 


"If Man is to survive, he will have learned to take delight in the essential difference between people and cultures" -Gene Roddenberry -=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Col. P. A. Stevens CO, USS Code Talker NCC-1195

parrothead117

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Report this May. 16 2011, 9:16 pm

Quote: Trajan @ May. 16 2011, 6:45 pm

>

>Actually, you said the borg represented America's "ideological caricature of communism."

>


Yes, I think they do.  And I think it's unfortunate, because it's a fairly shallow, predictable, and even anachronistic thing for them to have done, regardless of your feelings about communism.  Your personal views on the matter have been noted -- not that they are relevant to the issue of what ST writers intended the Borg to represent.


"We must strive to be more than we are, Lal. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." - Data, "The Offspring"

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