ATTENTION: The Boards will be closed permanently on May 28th, 2014. Posting will be disabled on April 28th, 2014. More Info

Insurrection: the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly (aka the Son'a)

2takesfrakes

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3683

Report this Jun. 12 2011, 8:25 am

In some ways, INSURRECTION was bigger than any TREK,
before STAR TREK 2009. This movie played it on many
levels, for fans of all ages, using popular characters.
And told a compelling story of high-stakes adventure.
Prime ingredients for a Classic! For me, this movie's
just about wanting to "be" with the TNG family. If the
goal of the picture was entertainment - they succeeded!



guillermo.mejía

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2852

Report this Jun. 12 2011, 9:37 am

In some ways, INSURRECTION was bigger than any TREK,
before STAR TREK 2009. This movie played it on many
levels, for fans of all ages, using popular characters.


I....don't agree with that comment at all. Maybe you are referring to bigger budget wise or in terms of sets, but I wouldn't say it was bigger than any other before Star Trek '09. If you're talking about feel or scope, I also disagree because Nemesis felt bigger to me. I think Nemesis got a bad rap, but that's a story for another day.


As for playing on on many levels, for fans of all ages, using popular characters, that's what Star Trek movies ALWAYS do. And I'm not sure how the popular characters comments applies, beyond the TNG crew, since I never once connected or cared for the Ba'ku. Not even Anij who kept up too much mysticism talk whic never really got explained or the boy with his space hamster. If anything, I preferred the Son'a with their plot twist connection to the Bak'u at the end.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

Matthias Russell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7705

Report this Jun. 13 2011, 4:38 am

Love that picture of Frakes.



As the movie got going, I was a little confused as to the humor and why they unfolded the story the way they did, but as the film got movie, I stayed entertained until the very end.  I'm with my boy, 2Takes.


2takesfrakes

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3683

Report this Jun. 13 2011, 6:36 am

Matthias Russell
Yes! Thank you, sir. Much appreciated.


guillermo.mejía
I enjoyed the themes of INSURRECTION very much. America's put such
tremendous emphasis on the value of youth, we're all afraid to age.
With Forced Relocation, you think of Israeli residents within Gaza.
And during World War II, Japanese Americans were deported to camps,
in the States. George Takei often tells a story about living at one
with his parents, when he was 4. The Native American's Trail of Tears
comes to mind & so on. INSURRECTION went down some interesting roads.
Admittedly however, not always in a completely seamless fashion ...


lostshaker

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2293

Report this Jun. 17 2011, 7:40 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>I appreciate that it was wrong to relocate people forcibly but Picatd did it to some group of Amercian Indians in some episode of TNG.

>


That's not quite accurate. The Indians were Federation citizens, who had settled on that former Cardassian world only decades earlier. In contrast, the Bak'u settlement predated the Federation. The Federation had no right to move them and Admiral Dougherty was in violation of the Prime Directive for attempting to do so.

Ghostmojo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1826

Report this Jun. 18 2011, 2:02 am

It really was a dull idea. I'm surprised this movie ever got past the basic scripting/storyboard stage. It is the epitome of what was going wrong with Trek. The vision thing had been completely lost by all concerned. Somehow nobody really seemed to know anymore just what they should be doing with Trek - just going through the motions ... let's make another movie then, what about? - who cares just get on with it ...

lostshaker

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2293

Report this Jun. 18 2011, 5:35 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>

>

>I appreciate that it was wrong to relocate people forcibly but Picatd did it to some group of Amercian Indians in some episode of TNG.

>

That's not quite accurate. The Indians were Federation citizens, who had settled on that former Cardassian world only decades earlier. In contrast, the Bak'u settlement predated the Federation. The Federation had no right to move them and Admiral Dougherty was in violation of the Prime Directive for attempting to do so.

But Picard really had no right to interfere with the relations between the Baku and Sona as per the PD. He only had the right to be involved because Dougherty had interfered and taken the side on the Sona as Picard was forced to take the side of the Baku.

Picard was willing to upsurp the American Indians because it was orders from Starfleet even though he thought in many ways it was the wrong thing to do. Just like the situation on the Baku's planet


Picard didn't really interfere in the relations between the Son'a and the Bak'u. All Picard did was work to restore the equilibrium that previously existed before Dougherty got the Federation involved.


As for point two, Picard was begrudgingly willing to follow orders in the instance of the Indians, but the Prime Directive wasn't being violated. The difference between the two situations is that the Indians were Federation citizens and the Bak'u weren't. The Federation has every right to manage its own affairs, but not the affairs of a people whose settlement predates the Federation. There are distinguishing circumstances between "Journey's End" and "Insurrection".

lostshaker

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2293

Report this Jun. 20 2011, 10:03 am

Agreed that Picard wasn't interfering with the PD but only because of Dougherty interference. Otherwise I thought he didn't have a right to interfere with the affairs of non-Federation worlds.


And Picard probably wouldn't have interfered had Dougherty not violated the Prime Directive. The issue at hand seems to be a lack of access to the Bak'u homeworld prevented the Son'a from previously harming the Bak'u, otherwise they probably would've done so a long time prior.


In both cases colonists were being forced from a planet when they didn't want to go. In one case Picard tried to force them to go. In another case he was willing to risk everything to help them stay. It wasn't the Federation citizens he tried to help keep their lands though.


But the real issue isn't the "inconsistency" between one colony being forcibly removed and another protected. The governing factor was the Prime Directive and it's what Picard risked everything to protect in INS. The Indian colonists were Federation citizens and were an internal political matter. Admiral Nacheyev stated the Indians had settled on the planet two decades earlier and were warned at the time it was a disputed planet. This is not to say I condone the Federation's political actions, but Picard was upfront with the Indians about relocation. Unfortunately, Wesley interrupted Worf from grouding the transporter enhancers, so it's impossible to know if Picard would've just beamed the Indians out or if he'd prepared them first.

Matthias Russell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7705

Report this Jun. 22 2011, 5:05 pm

Servalanfan, how can you not approve of Picard in INS but approve of Kirk in Omega Glory.  Kirk did the same thing!


 


And the PD does not apply because the Baku were warp capable and had the technology.  Picard said that as I have several times.


Matthias Russell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7705

Report this Jun. 22 2011, 8:03 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>

>Servalanfan, how can you not approve of Picard in INS but approve of Kirk in Omega Glory.  Kirk did the same thing!

>And the PD does not apply because the Baku were warp capable and had the technology.  Picard said that as I have several times.

>

Ahhh you get me wrong my friend. I 100% agree that Picard did the right thing here even if Admiral Dougherty wasn't involved.

I do not approve of someone sitting by while bullies (the Sona) attack a peaceful people. I'm old school with my interpretation of the PD. My only hesitancy is that this was an internal conflict. IMO Picard should have stopped the Sona here and helped a whole lot of other in the 7 seasons of TNG.

Why start here in INS Picard? He is quite willing to have entire pre-warp planet be destroyed without interfering because of the PD. But here he was willing to give up everything for 600 people with a cute leader. I'm not blaming Picard for this entirely though as its a Federation policy in the 24th century. I just get annoyed that Picard preaches what a good policy it is.

As to Kirk in Omega Glory. He came much closer to breaking the PD that Picard did in INS IMO. His big mistake was in bringing Spock down to a planet where the people looked human (sigh). The only suspicious thing he did was to read out the Declaration of Independence (sigh) but he didn't right it, only read it.


 


Perhaps events in Picard's life helped him to change his interpretation of the prime directive between the series and INS.  Maybe meeting Kirk and having Earth nearly retroactively assimilated along with other events helped him to take on a more kirk-like view.  The book Ship of the Line showed Picard realizing the need to be more Kirk-like.


Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Jun. 23 2011, 5:33 am

Quote: Matthias Russell @ Jun. 22 2011, 8:03 pm

>

>

>

>The book Ship of the Line showed Picard realizing the need to be more Kirk-like.

>


 


I'm going to by DammitJim a signed, hardcover, first edition of that book.


I AM KEE-ROCK!!

Matthias Russell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7705

Report this Jun. 23 2011, 4:57 pm

^ I know it isn't canon but there was some great moments in that book.  I do think Picard grew and changed through the course of the franchise.  He went from being mr stiff by-the-book to realizing the intent of the book was more important than the letter.  he realized people were more important than rules and protocol.  Kirk appreciated this from the beginning.


KelisThePoet

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 636

Report this Jun. 25 2011, 11:12 pm

For me, the problem is less with the Prime Directive than with Picard's tendency to preach about how wonderfully evolved every aspect of 24th century humanity and the Federation is, which always feels like an implicit sermon about his own wonderful-ness as a 24th century Federation human.  I think most of his crew shares this annoying tendency to preach.  I just watched "Time's Arrow" for the first time, and I quite enjoyed it, overall, but when Troi started extolling the progress of 24th century humanity to Samuel Clemens, I got the familiar sense of discomfort that always accompanies a Next Generation social homily.


I'm not sure why Picard's preaching irritates me.  For the most part, Picard's values are my values--and I think they're Kirk's values, for the most part, too.  Kirk was ready and able to explain humanity's moral progress to a skeptical Flint in "Requiem for Methuselah," for example.  But somehow, to me, Picard and his crew come across more arrogant, complacent and self-satisfied about their values.


Maybe there's just too much speech making and not enough drama and controversy about Federation values in The Next Generation.  My sister always jokes that in The Next Generation, any convoluted problem can be solved with a good speech.


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

Matthias Russell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7705

Report this Jun. 26 2011, 8:55 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>Say in INS that Dougherty hadn't been involved, should have Picard interfered? The Sona were determined to wipe out the Baku, Should the Federation sit around and allow this to happen? Maybe if they did then the fountain of youth would be available to everyone and just not the select 600 on the planet.

>


 


Now THIS is a good question.  Think about Bread and Circuses and Piece of the Action, Kirk got involved because his people were already involved.  I think Picard got involved mainly BECAUSE starfleet ws already in the middle and were causing harm.  i think if starfleet were not involved, he would not have jumped in, and I would tend to agree with that.  Starfleet should have shooed the Sona away when they entered their teritory.


 


BTW, Excellent points from kelis, as usual.


Forum Permissions

You cannot post new topics in this forum

You cannot reply to topics in this forum

You cannot delete posts in this forum