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strong alien women

toranaprem

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 621

Report this Apr. 22 2011, 12:32 pm

Quote: coastcityo @ Apr. 22 2011, 12:09 pm

>

>Treknour, I'm not trying to gloss over the obvious fact that Uhura and Chapel and Rand and the rest of the TOS women are presented as they are, which is weaker than most of the Trek females that came later, but comparing TOS to DS9's representation of women is like comparing TOS' FX to TNG or DS9 or the movies. Comparing Trek to other 60's shows is a much more fair comparison, and in that light it comes out much better for women and minorities both. 60's women played nurses and mothers and secretaries and lab assistants, while Trek also allowed them to be scientist and technicians, and that allowed young women in the 60's to think there was a future for them where they had more choices than juts the roles society would allow them at present. My only argument is that it isn't fair to expect Trek to be the equal of shows from the 80's and 90's, when it was doing all it could just to push the envelope of the 60's, and that was something that should be applauded and not condemned for not doing more.

>


But the think is, even though TOS is in some ways an artifact from the past, it hasn't stayed there. Like any good piece of classical literature it still has emotional resonance for people, and new, young fans are finding it every day. And bringing new meaning to it.


Young women are finding it, and the female characters just don't do it for them. Their strength isn't why TOS has survived.


So we critique it, we change it, and it lives on, and it becomes something new.


Stories have power, they're how we communicate things about ourselves and our world, and while a novel or a '60s tv show never changes textually, our perceptions of it do change and it is the sign of a living work of art if it endures in some form through all these changes.


And clearly it has, or there wouldn't have been any forward momentum on getting it reimagined on the big screen.


"What will they find when I am ripped apart? 'I love you, captain' written on my heart."

Treknoir

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1784

Report this Apr. 22 2011, 1:20 pm

Quote: toranaprem @ Apr. 22 2011, 12:32 pm

Quote: coastcityo @ Apr. 22 2011, 12:09 pm

>

But the think is, even though TOS is in some ways an artifact from the past, it hasn't stayed there. Like any good piece of classical literature it still has emotional resonance for people, and new, young fans are finding it every day. And bringing new meaning to it.

Young women are finding it, and the female characters just don't do it for them. Their strength isn't why TOS has survived.

So we critique it, we change it, and it lives on, and it becomes something new.

Stories have power, they're how we communicate things about ourselves and our world, and while a novel or a '60s tv show never changes textually, our perceptions of it do change and it is the sign of a living work of art if it endures in some form through all these changes.

And clearly it has, or there wouldn't have been any forward momentum on getting it reimagined on the big screen.


I can appreciate the historical significance of TOS and still make critical observations. History should be analyzed so that lessons can be learned and improvements made. Ideally, anyway.


It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want. - Spock

Treknoir

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POSTS: 1784

Report this Apr. 22 2011, 1:21 pm

By the way, great thread Kelis. I hope it stays positive.


 


It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want. - Spock

KelisThePoet

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 636

Report this Apr. 22 2011, 1:42 pm

I agree that there are things the original Star Trek did well with its depictions of gender issues, along with many other things the series could have done better, things which deserve and need our critique.


I'm not sure I agree that the reason for this mixed report card Star Trek gets on gender has to do (entirely) with its time in history, its status as a show from the 60s.  I'm not trying to deny the obvious, that any piece of entertainment has to be the product of its time, sort of, and I do see the influence of the 60s on the original series.  That said, for all its flaws, I think there are things about gender issues that the original series could teach people now.  In some ways, in some episodes and scenes, I think it did better at depicting women and gender issues than did some of the later Star Trek (I also think it sometimes did better than the later Star Trek on special effects, but that's way off topic).


Older just isn't always worse or more backward.


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

KelisThePoet

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 636

Report this Apr. 22 2011, 1:49 pm

Quote: toranaprem @ Apr. 22 2011, 12:18 pm

>But I wasn't comparing Janeway to other women or to other captains.


I know you weren't.  I think the point I was trying to make last night about this was that you seemed to be saying that you didn't like Janeway because she wasn't a flawed character, that she was more a paragon of leadership than a complex human being.  Well, I do think she's complex, but what I was trying to say is that I like the Star Trek captains to be paragons of leadership, and that's one of the reasons I liked Janeway (and conversely didn't care much for Archer).  Ever since I was a kid, I have imagined myself Captain Kirk, not because I've ever really felt like him, but because I've always wanted to be like him.  And in my later life, I've had a similar attitude toward Janeway.  When I was going through a difficult time, I taped a piece of paper to my wall with one word, "Compensate," Janeway's favorite answer whenever things look grim for Voyager.  So those larger-than-life hero characters do something positive for me.


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

KelisThePoet

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 636

Report this Apr. 22 2011, 1:53 pm

Quote: Treknoir @ Apr. 22 2011, 1:21 pm

>

>By the way, great thread Kelis. I hope it stays positive.

>


Thanks.  Me too.


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Apr. 23 2011, 12:20 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>- how do people trash Keiko?

>- my only complaint about her was that she was Asian.

>- why does the wife of the only main enlisted character HAVE to be Asian; can we enforce anymore stereotypes here?

>- i am not sure what would have been a better choice, but the stereotype of the career enlisted man marrying an Asian woman is a stereotype. 

>


Wuh??!!!?!??!!?!


I have never heard of that stereotype -- but I guess it proves my point that no matter what, someone will find something to complain about with characters. I tend to think of it like, well she didn't have to be Asian. She happened to be.


What surprises me about the future is that there are not more mixed-race kiddies running around. As for example a lot of the old racial boundaries that existed in the Dark Ages and Roman times have been significantly blurred since then -- as many of us are living proof. I would have assumed that this would continue with increasing globalisation and then the development of interplanetary alliances.


However, words I have heard (or read) to describe Keiko: Harpy, miserable miserable woman, shrew, killjoy, whiner, nag, never gonna be happy... I don't agree with any of these. I think that like every human in the galaxy she is imperfect, but much of what she and Miles face as a couple is not so different from what many couples face at one time or another. I think a lot of the hating is because Miles is a major character so people's sympathies so often go directly to him.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

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POSTS: 16362

Report this Apr. 23 2011, 12:26 am

Quote: KelisThePoet @ Apr. 22 2011, 1:49 pm

Quote: toranaprem @ Apr. 22 2011, 12:18 pm

>

>But I wasn't comparing Janeway to other women or to other captains.

I know you weren't.  I think the point I was trying to make last night about this was that you seemed to be saying that you didn't like Janeway because she wasn't a flawed character, that she was more a paragon of leadership than a complex human being. 


For some reason I am reminded of some lines from For the Cause (ds9)


Kassidy: "You are evil."
Sisko: "I am a Starfleet officer, a paragon of virtue."
Kassidy: "You're more like a parody of virtue, but we'll have to continue this discussion at another time."
Sisko: "I can't wait."


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Apr. 23 2011, 12:46 am

Quote: KelisThePoet @ Apr. 22 2011, 10:43 am

Quote: OtakuJo @ Apr. 21 2011, 9:07 pm

>

>I think a lot of Romulan women were strong characters too in their own right, although they were more representative of "Romulans" than "Women" if that makes sense?? Romulan culture seems to pervade its people's thinking in a very similar way regardless of gender.

That's interesting.  Do you think the Romulan commander in "The Enterprise Incident" was presented in a similar way to the later Romulan women, or was her gender a bigger issue?  Honestly, I could imagine arguments on both sides of that question.


*EEP*


You put me on the spot, and I don't think I can answer because I have not seen the Enterprise Incident. My impressions of Romulans has been very much gleaned from TNG The Neutral Zone, and beyond, although they do seem to be very much "Romulan first, everything else second" in their identities.


Who've we got?? Half Romulan: Sela and Ba'el (From Birthright).


Full Romulan: (Forgive me if I forget a few names...)


Commander who-zit in Face of the Enemy
Karenna in Visionary
Subcommander T'Rul in The Search pt1&2
Unnamed Romulan in In Purgatory's Shadow / By Inferno's Light (she was cool)
Senator Cretak in Image in the Sand / Shadows and Symbols / Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges... (two actresses same person methinks. Oh and she was cool too.)
Senator whats-er-handle in Star Trek: Nemesis.


And all of these are very strong characters in their own right. But it might speak to the nature of the Romulan state that many are very much Romulan before they are anything else. Not sure about any TOS Romulans but I am guessing they may be quite similar in this regard.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Apr. 23 2011, 5:27 pm

Why not go into it? I like her too.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

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