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Torture - is it ever justified in the 21st C

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Created by: xk9261s

OtakuJo

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Report this Apr. 17 2011, 5:24 am

Not justified. As an interrogation tool it is arcane, and as a means of extracting information it is ultimately self-defeating. Even in the early days of the Inquisition a confession under torture was non-admissable. (Of course verbatim repetition of a confession originally made under torture was another story...)


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caltrek2

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Report this Apr. 17 2011, 6:25 am

No. Torture is more often used to extract confessions. Whther the person being tortured is actually guilty of what they are beign tortured for is often made irrelevant by the process.

DS9TREK

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Report this Apr. 17 2011, 7:08 am

Yes torture can be justified. All recruits for the British SAS are stripped naked, denied food and water and tortured by SAS members non-stop for 36 hours for their sixth and final test.


It separates the men from the boys like nothing else can.

UNTRugby

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Report this Apr. 17 2011, 9:14 am

its it EVER justifiable the answer is yes, its YES for everyone


hypothetical: a terrorist has a bomb big enough to destroy the entire world, only he knows the location and how to stop it and any info about it. You know for sure the threat is real. Youre on a time constrant and you have exusated every conventional and moral means of interagation. Would you torture him to save to world? it doesnt matter what you say the answer is YES. Humans have a survival instinct that you just cant overwirte. So answering a hypothetical is far different from being in that situation.


Now that being said is there ever a PRACTICAL situation where torture is viable? probably not.


 

lligevets

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Report this Apr. 17 2011, 10:41 am

America asked these questions a few years ago and debated not just the torture question but what is considered torture. Pulling fingernails off then pouring salt on the wound is torture. Sleep deprivation or very load music this was considered by some to be torture. What is the defining line and when does the line cross over to torture?  We know from government unclassified documents that water boarding a certain few terrorist did help in stopping bombings and also helped in finding other terrorists.


 

Ezri Janeway

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Report this Apr. 17 2011, 3:03 pm

Quote: UNTRugby @ Apr. 17 2011, 9:14 am

>

>its it EVER justifiable the answer is yes, its YES for everyone

>hypothetical: a terrorist has a bomb big enough to destroy the entire world, only he knows the location and how to stop it and any info about it. You know for sure the threat is real. Youre on a time constrant and you have exusated every conventional and moral means of interagation. Would you torture him to save to world?  

>


No, it would be pointless to waste what limited time you have (which the the terrorist is fully aware of) on inflicting pain on someone who is probably prepared to endure all kinds of things in your hypothetical time limit.


What you would need to do in this case is bring in the mans mother, wife or, even better, children to be tortured in fron of him and even then you may not get the information you want and if you do may not have time to verify its authenticinty.


But my question is, would you justify the torture of innocents, even children if it was the only way to stop whatever other tragedy was going to happen? Most people would rather throw themselves on the bomb than torure a child (most, but alas not all) for just the possibility of the right information.


Torture isnt reliable enough to justify its widespread use. We need to go beyond these crude hit and miss experiments so we can gain the psychological and technological intelligence we need to gather this kind of information. Doing the same stuff we did in the dark ages under the banner of 'protecting our citizens' just isnt good enough, whatever your moral standing.


Personally I had no problem reading about the known pedophile who was tortured over some days. He'll recover from the physical scars and get used to the wheelchair, but not the mental ones, which you could argue is fitting, as is the wheelchair, a proper sentence that wont keep him off the streets but his days of being an abuser are over. I also dont have a problem with a known terrorist getting some abuse. I do have a big problem with those who enjoy inflicting the abuse and indulge in it for fun and entertainment and I also have a problem with torture for information due to said unreliability.


"Let me see if Ive got this straight. You're risking the ship, the crew, and the mission on the assumptions that Helkara and Leishman are engineering geniuses, Tharp is a piloting savant, our transporter chief can work miracles, and the Breen are unwilling to sacrifice themselves in a kamikaze attack?" "Yup." "Damn I LOVE this job."

Ezri Janeway

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Report this Apr. 17 2011, 3:08 pm

The best form of torture, yet seen more morally repugnant and unethical than electrodes et al?


Get someone addicted to a hard drug, then stop supplying it. Many addicts will do almost anything to get their fix. Then of course you put them through detox and lock em up for as long as the legal bods see fit.

BirthdayBalloons

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Report this Apr. 17 2011, 4:35 pm

No, I don't believe torture is ever justified. 

Corwin8

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Report this Apr. 17 2011, 4:50 pm

Only if the terrorist deserves it. 

OtakuJo

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Report this Apr. 17 2011, 5:10 pm

Quote: lligevets @ Apr. 17 2011, 10:41 am

>

class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">America asked these questions a few years ago and debated not just the torture question but what is considered torture. Pulling fingernails off then pouring salt on the wound is torture. Sleep deprivation or very load music this was considered by some to be torture. What is the defining line and when does the line cross over to torture?  We know from government unclassified documents that water boarding a certain few terrorist did help in stopping bombings and also helped in finding other terrorists.

> 

>


And it was also used in Guantanemo Bay against innocent people that the US had no legal right to incarcerate in the first place.


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Beccs_

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Report this Apr. 17 2011, 6:15 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>LOL Some people actually think innocent people were tortured at Guantanamo.

>


 


Well there was that innocent cat. 

UNTRugby

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Report this Apr. 17 2011, 8:00 pm

>>No, it would be pointless to waste what limited time you have (which the the terrorist is fully aware of) on inflicting pain on someone who is probably prepared to endure all kinds of things in your hypothetical time limit.


>>What you would need to do in this case is bring in the mans mother, wife or, even better, children to be tortured in fron of him and even then you may not get the information you want and if you do may not have time to verify its authenticinty.


whatever methods you chose wether him or his family youd still have to justify torture to save the world.`


and once you realize that you will justify torture or even worse the torture of innocents. the question is wehere you draw the line? If you justify it to save the whole world would you justify it to save 95% of the world? 80%? 50%?

OtakuJo

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Report this Apr. 17 2011, 9:13 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>LOL Some people actually think innocent people were tortured at Guantanamo.

>


Of course they were. I know of specific cases where people were held at Guantanamo, and later proven innocent. Their personal accounts speak of torture, and there is no reason in the world to disbelieve them.


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