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The United States enters a time of great change

starfleet_officer1

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POSTS: 171

Report this Apr. 14 2011, 8:20 pm

We are being hit from all fronts.  Our societal norms are being challenged by both democrats and republicans.  Our economy is in shambles, our job market is rapidly crumbling, the world food market is decreasing, fuel is at an all-time high cost in our country, and we have for the first time in the country's history a population of young people (18-30) who are more likely to NOT go to church than they are to go to church.


We are going through growing pains.  We will decide what we are about to become in these years.  These are the years where we will put our principles to the test, and the majority will decide in which direction we move.  




Something amazing is going on in the nation when there are multiple political threads active on the Star Trek message board.  Trek fandom transcends politics--Trek fans are both conservative and liberal.


Do we want to be a socialist nation, with a larger government whose job it is to take care of the people, protect their rights, and determine what rights they have?  In this nation, the creators envision a utopia where the government regulates the big businesses, who they say are encroaching on people's freedom by keeping all the money in the upper class.  The government will also regulate our daily lives.  There will be more stringent requirements for doing everything.  They say this will lead to a safer, better-running country, but it will inevitably lead to more government jobs and less private sector jobs.  Is this a good thing?  Can a country successfully run this way?


The other option is that we become the republic we once were, that our Founders set up.  Critics say that this form of government is outdated.  It consists of a smaller government whose job it is to protect the people's rights, but not to take care of them or determine what rights they have.  In fact, one of the chief principles of this kind of government is that government works for the people, not the other way around, and only in extreme cases do they get to put regulations on what we do.  It definitely gives the people more power and eliminates government jobs, creating more private sector jobs (allowing the private sector to regulate itself).  However, critics say that this will lead to poor safety and lifestyles.  Is this form of government a good thing?  Our country was most successful while under it, but as our Founders admitted, this kind of government only works if people are willing to do the work of holding the government accountable, and take personal responsibility for themselves.  Is this possible?



lligevets

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 777

Report this Apr. 15 2011, 5:22 am

The overview of this post asks some very good questions many questions that I have ask for years. I truly don’t believe any of our current politicians will answer this Honestly. We’ll hear softened versions of the American dream, prosperity, cutting waste and fraud, we’ll hear each party blame each other, Once in a great while we’ll hear an average American stand up and ask these types of questions only to have the media, the far left or the far right bowl them over. It’s sad but it’s also true. The parties have deliberately split our county for there own agenda we bark back and forth at each other never solving any issues. Then we end up voting on the politics rather than issues. 


 

caltrek2

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POSTS: 2654

Report this Apr. 15 2011, 5:50 am

I simply don't think that the socialism that so many of you fear is even in the cards. It is not so much a choice between a republic and socialism as it is between the old welfare state and and a new stage where the federal government becomes so small that you can drown it in a bath tub.


To me, this fixation on the size of government missess a more improtant question - the size and influence that our modern corporations are starting to wield. There was a time in this country where anti-monopoly laws were enforced and/or where there were extremely high rates of taxation on the very wealthy. Sometimes those rates were avoided by a series of tax dodges, but the high rates were at least theoretically in place. That time is passed.


Now we have corporations on steroids that increasingly dominate both political parties and the media. So the choice has been boiled down to a Keynesian style of welfare capitalism that understands the need to sustain aggregate demand, and an opposition obsessed with reducing taxes at all costs and allowing corporations free reign to do as they please.


Now some folks may support lower taxes while agreeing to the need for some restaint on corporations, or want to see corporations proceed without restraints but are willing to see higher taxes on the rich, so there is a mixture of views on the right and in the broader society in that sense. There is also a set of social issues - homosexual marriage, recreational drug use, abortion etc. that are separate and distinct from economic issues - more mixtures of views. Still, the underlying tension in economic philosophies is the important one to keep ones eyes on. The other issues usually get subordinated in the political process - utilized to mobilize the troops come election time, but other wise of more peripheral importance.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46315

Report this Apr. 15 2011, 8:00 am

Quote: starfleet_officer1 @ Apr. 14 2011, 8:20 pm

>Something amazing is going on in the nation when there are multiple political threads active on the Star Trek message board.
The good thing is that people are now starting to take an interest nowadays - more than in the recent past.  A long time again, political discussion was the norm, but Americans got lazy and left everything to the elitists in government - which has taken us down this destructive path.  Now, people are starting to wake up and want to hold the government accountable.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46315

Report this Apr. 15 2011, 8:00 am

Quote: caltrek2 @ Apr. 15 2011, 5:50 am

>I simply don't think that the socialism that so many of you fear is even in the cards.
It's already here - the question is, how can we reverse it?


What amazes me is that even though the government can't figure out very easy things like how to create a balanced (zero deficit) budget, pay off the national debt, create a simple tax system, etc., but they are arrogant enough to assume that they can run every aspect of the lives of the citizens of this country.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46315

Report this Apr. 15 2011, 8:06 am

Quote: caltrek2 @ Apr. 15 2011, 5:50 am

>...there were extremely high rates of taxation on the very wealthy. Sometimes those rates were avoided by a series of tax dodges, but the high rates were at least theoretically in place.
The only thing high taxation does is steal from the rich, harming them and everyone else.



This is easily explained by the Laffer Curve:



High taxation is NOT meant to drive in more revenue, it's meant to control people.  The demand is that the rich create jobs, but the government makes it almost impossible for them to do so, thereby creating a demand for more government and entitlements and control.


lligevets

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 777

Report this Apr. 15 2011, 9:02 am

[quote]




The United States enters a time of great change.


 



 


 For some reason I can’t see any pics you post. Seems everyone else’s works?


 

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46315

Report this Apr. 15 2011, 9:47 am

Quote: lligevets @ Apr. 15 2011, 9:02 am

For some reason I can’t see any pics you post. Seems everyone else’s works? 
I can see it fine.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46315

Report this Apr. 15 2011, 10:58 am

And even more information on the "success" of progressivisim....  



 



 


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46315

Report this Apr. 15 2011, 11:01 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>

>...there were extremely high rates of taxation on the very wealthy. Sometimes those rates were avoided by a series of tax dodges, but the high rates were at least theoretically in place.
The only thing high taxation does is steal from the rich, harming them and everyone else.

This is easily explained by the Laffer Curve:

High taxation is NOT meant to drive in more revenue, it's meant to control people.  The demand is that the rich create jobs, but the government makes it almost impossible for them to do so, thereby creating a demand for more government and entitlements and control.

All those curves and diagrams REALLY show is that that those on the top marginal rate of personal income tax are able to avoid paying the tax they should be paying (heard of bottom of the harbour tax avoidance schemes, neg gearing, just 2 examples).

 

Yes - it's the top marginal (not average) tax rates, but it's the rate paid, not "avoided" or the the tax "they should be paying" - they actually should be paying a lot less:



Lieutenant_Jedi

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POSTS: 1728

Report this Apr. 15 2011, 11:18 am

Two facts to consider. 


 


One - a great deal of the wealthiest American ACTUAL income is disguised in various ways, through capital gains, various land use loopholes, etc. So even though the tax rate on top earners is often discussed, the wealthy can protect their income from such rates with a great deal more skill (thanks to hired help) than the higher earning middle class. 


Two - the food stamp curve is laughable. The curve only shows the last two years of a bona fide RECESSION. To place the blame on "progressivism" is Glenn Beck worthy. The curve also shows a growth of only Five percent, which is not good, but the visuals are deceptive. 


"Can you detect midi - chlorians with a tricorder?"

Lieutenant_Jedi

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POSTS: 1728

Report this Apr. 15 2011, 11:19 am

And despite BamBam's fervent defense of the wealthy as "job creators" the fact that millions of jobs have been sent out of country in the last two decades by those same benevolent rich people. 


"Can you detect midi - chlorians with a tricorder?"

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46315

Report this Apr. 15 2011, 11:43 am

Quote: Lieutenant_Jedi @ Apr. 15 2011, 11:19 am

>

>And despite BamBam's fervent defense of the wealthy as "job creators" the fact that millions of jobs have been sent out of country in the last two decades by those same benevolent rich people. 

>
You make my point - they are creating jobs - just not in the USA.  If the government would be less anti-business, those same companies would keep more business here.  The point is - they're there to make money - and if the environment won't let them do it here, they'll go somewhere else.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46315

Report this Apr. 15 2011, 11:44 am

Quote: Lieutenant_Jedi @ Apr. 15 2011, 11:18 am

>One - a great deal of the wealthiest American ACTUAL income is disguised in various ways, through capital gains, various land use loopholes, etc. So even though the tax rate on top earners is often discussed, the wealthy can protect their income from such rates with a great deal more skill (thanks to hired help) than the higher earning middle class. 
True, but they're still paying more than their "fair share."


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46315

Report this Apr. 15 2011, 11:47 am

Quote: Lieutenant_Jedi @ Apr. 15 2011, 11:18 am

>Two - the food stamp curve is laughable. The curve only shows the last two years of a bona fide RECESSION. To place the blame on "progressivism" is Glenn Beck worthy. The curve also shows a growth of only Five percent, which is not good, but the visuals are deceptive. 
I think Jedi just tried to compliment me! 


 


Normal markets have peaks and valleys - only the government is arrogant enough to think that they can remove the valleys, thereby making them a whole lot bigger (see their deficit & debt spending....)


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