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"Star Trek II: The Wrath of ----------"

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Created by: Matthias Russell

Matthias Russell

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Report this Mar. 31 2011, 4:02 pm

Let's go back in time and you are on the pre-production board for Star Trek 2 and asked to decide who from TOS was the best match for Kirk, to pick his greatest revenge-driven nemesis/arch-enemy.


Joker for his Batman


Magneto for his Professor X


Who do you choose to be the most challenging adversary to return and face Kirk again?  Who holds the biggest grudge?  Who is Kirk's definitive arch-enemy?


 


 


I only listed 9, but there are several others you might consider.  I thought of Apollo, Charlie Evans, Finnegan, and the female Romulan Commander, for example.

parrothead117

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Report this Mar. 31 2011, 5:47 pm

Good question, and I can't say I have a good answer.  As somebody said in the other thread in which we've been discussing thus, the supernemesis thing just doesn't fit with Star Trek in my opinion.  It's not a particularly interesting concept, and I even thought "Balance of Terror" was overwrought and overly melodramatic.


After TMP, the new Klingon concept was already crying out for its day in the sun, so for that reason I'll vote Kor.


"We must strive to be more than we are, Lal. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." - Data, "The Offspring"

SpockNation

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Report this Mar. 31 2011, 7:06 pm

 


1).  Khan-dead.  So yeah, this is sci-fi, and they revive people all the time in Trek, but you can't do anything else with Khan since Ricardo Montalban is dead.  Plus, WOK was the sequel to TMP, and ST2 is a sequel.  Just looks like a copycat.


2). Finney is an interesting thought.  I think it could go either way.  Either it would work because he's not as well known of a TOS villian, or it will bust because of the same reason. 


3). Karidian is a great choice.  Maybe going back to how Kirk was on the planet where he was governer and slaughtered all those people.  Might be too dark of a plot to make a whole movie out of it.  But I'd love for Riley to be introduced back.


4). Kor, again, interesting choice, but like all the others, just not feeling the vibe of he and Kirk being archnemesis.  Plus, the whole reboot of TOS would mean that Klingons=evil to the Federation.  Since there's been peace between Klingons and the Federation in the Prime timeline, it would be hard to go back to the two's warring days.


5). Gary Mitchell was a close second for my vote.  I loved this show, but since he was brought back in Of Gods and Men, it may be hard to bring him back.  Plus, until "Where No Man Has Gone Before", Kirk and Gary were best friends.  


6). Harry Mudd.  I don't know why I love this guy so much, but I think he is the perfect nemesis for Kirk.  Since he seems to have an obsession with androids and other women, that would be the perfect start for an interesting plot.  


Okay, I'll stop there, but I think you've got some great ideas Matthias!  


 

Matthias Russell

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Report this Mar. 31 2011, 8:24 pm

Maybe I should clarify, I'm not talking about who should be the villain in the next Abrams movie. I'm asking who was the greatest Kirk nemesis from the 60s show and if Khan was the right choice for returning bad guy in the 80s Star Trek 2.

mdesjardins

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Report this Mar. 31 2011, 11:29 pm

I think I'd have gone with Khan. There was just something so sexual and scary about him.


(every time he takes Marla's hands and forces her to kneel before him and says in his deep voice "Open your... heart... to me" I feel so perved out)


 


He was biologically enhanced, he was epic, he was terrifying, and I will say he came really close to taking over the ship. And putting Kirk in that pressure chamber?! Scary stuff.


 


Besides, one of his men hit Uhura, which was a total violation of the Enterprise family for me. I always remember that being one of the moments that shocked me in the series- the crew got all defensive... and then how they all stood up to him and were willing to die for the ship and to stop him... I have always loved Space Seed (on it's own) and I have to say Khan is my favorite of Kirk's nemeses.


 


Although I do hold love for the Gorn... but they kind of came to terms at the end. Not a great villain, although completely and utterly a BOSS.


"I HEARD EVERYTHING YOU SAID"


And his sparkly orange dress? Oh yes.

Matthias Russell

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Report this Apr. 01 2011, 6:15 am

I forgot about the Gorn. That us an interesting choice but probably wouldn't have worked for the movie. Right now, I'm leaning on Tracey or the Kelvins but haven't voted yet. I found the Kelvin episode similar to the Khan episode and more interesting.

Vger23

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Report this Apr. 01 2011, 7:56 am

Ok...


Obviously they chose Khan and that worked out very well. BUT, that being said...I think the two options that have the most merit are:


1. Gary Mitchell: The potential for drama whereas this was Kirk's best friend for 15 years, and now this force has changed and corrupted him is fascinating. I think if you developed a scenario where Mitchell was severely weakened from the fight with Kirk, but because of his powers was never really dead...and he re-emerged looking to do something evil (you know, conquer the universe and get revenge on James R Kirk or whatever), it would be pretty epic.


 


2. Ron Tracey: Ok, ok...I know we've been joking around a lot about this one. But, hear me out. Tracey was a fellow starship captain. At the time of TOS, the Constitution-class ships were THE best assignments in the fleet, which means Tracey and Kirk were peers in a VERY distinguished group. Tracey murdered one of Kirk's men, almost killed Spock, and tried every possible way to kill Kirk himself, all in his own selfish, deluded quest for power. Not only that, but he was responsible for the deaths of his entire crew. I think the potential to have another trained and experienced Starfleet captain go against Kirk would be a cool premise. Kind of like having another "double-oh" agent go against Bond in "Goldeneye."


Yeah, very nice.

KelisThePoet

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Report this Apr. 01 2011, 10:57 am

I voted for Mudd.  I just love the idea of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Mudd.


Kor is my favorite Star Trek "villain" and one of my favorite (perhaps my absolute favorite) minor characters in the franchise.  The problem with plugging him into the nemesis plot is that he's not really that kind of villain.  He's ruthless and supports a way of governing that most people, including me, would consider evil, but he's not personally vindictive or the type to stupidly put his own ego and emotions ahead of the Klingon empire.  So he would have been great in a movie, but not in a "nemesis" movie.  It would have been more interesting to see Kor and Kirk have to work together.  That would nicely continue what the Organians said about the humans' and Klingons' future cooperation, and Kirk and Kor are really more alike than either would care to admit.


And I feel similarly about the Romulan commander from "Balance of Terror."  He was an interesting character precisely because he did not come across as the type who could become a revenge-driven nemesis of some individual.  In a different reality, he and Kirk would have been friends, as he said--I know this is not a thread about what would be good in the next Abrams' movie, but that's the plot I would love to see.  In the wake of Nero, have some conflict between the Federation and the Romulans that forces Kirk and that commander to work together in this other reality, giving us all the exact opposite of the revenge-driven nemesis stories that have dominated Star Trek movies of late.


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Apr. 01 2011, 3:09 pm

Can't forget Koloth and what Kirk did to him with the Tribbles...

SpockNation

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Report this Apr. 01 2011, 3:42 pm

Quote: Matthias Russell @ Mar. 31 2011, 8:24 pm

>Maybe I should clarify, I'm not talking about who should be the villain in the next Abrams movie. I'm asking who was the greatest Kirk nemesis from the 60s show and if Khan was the right choice for returning bad guy in the 80s Star Trek 2.


Well, in that case, hands down it is Khan!  Space Seed was an instant favorite of mine probably because having lived through the 1990s (as did everyone here LOL), I certainly don't remember any Eugenics Wars-fortunetly.  


Don't even get me started on WOK and how much of a love/hate relationship I have with that movie.  I could go on for hours! LOL


"Logic is little tweeting bird chirping in meadow. Logic is wreath of pretty flowers that smell bad."

Vger23

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Report this Apr. 01 2011, 3:55 pm

Quote: mdesjardins @ Mar. 31 2011, 11:29 pm

>

>I think I'd have gone with Khan. There was just something so sexual and scary about him.

>(every time he takes Marla's hands and forces her to kneel before him and says in his deep voice "Open your... heart... to me" I feel so perved out)

>


Nothing wrong with being "perved out." We are, after all, human.


 


I AM KEE-ROCK!!

mdesjardins

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Report this Apr. 01 2011, 7:26 pm

Quote: Vger23 @ Apr. 01 2011, 3:55 pm

Quote: mdesjardins @ Mar. 31 2011, 11:29 pm

>

>

>I think I'd have gone with Khan. There was just something so sexual and scary about him.

>(every time he takes Marla's hands and forces her to kneel before him and says in his deep voice "Open your... heart... to me" I feel so perved out)

>

Nothing wrong with being "perved out." We are, after all, human.

 


 


hahahaha good point.


 


I'm totally loving this discussion. Everyone brings up some pretty good points.


 


RON TRACEY?!?! hahahahaha 


Happy Birthday Leonard Nimoy!!! You are one of the most talented, inspirational, and respectable people to have ever garnered so much fame. llap, always.

Matthias Russell

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Report this Apr. 01 2011, 7:36 pm

Why do you laugh at Tracey?  He is an equal.  A perfect archenemy.


 


As to Khan, I think Rojan would have been a better pick.  Both were superior intellects.  I found the Kelvin episode to be far more memorable (not to mention isn't dependant on a 20th century Eugenics War).  Also consider motive.  Kirk should have arrested Khan and his followers.  He did a good thing for them, Khan had no REAL reason to have a vendetta.  I always found his misguided blame a bit out of character for a self made man.


But Rojan, Rojan was on his way to completing his mission, then Kirk convinced him he couldn't go home and that he was more human than Kelvin and tricked them into settling down.  If not for Kirk, rather than being on a forsaken planet, he could have been on his way home to Andromeda.


Then, the Trilogy could have involved a Kelvin invasion force in a later movie so the 3 movies relate to each other better.


Matthias Russell

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Report this Apr. 01 2011, 7:42 pm

Plus, this means more Kelinda



 


Who aged quite well I might add.



KelisThePoet

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Report this Apr. 01 2011, 7:51 pm

Well, the thing about Khan's motivations is that his story is based on Milton's Paradise Lost, which is also about a criminal whose punishment is forced "transportation" to a hostile new world he could have possibly colonized, but instead he escapes and "comes back" to pursue vengeance against the person who sent him there.


Milton>Shakespeare


therefore


"Space Seed">"By Any Other Name"


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

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