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Did Sisko have a problem with race in "Badda -Bing, Badda-Bang" ?

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 01 2011, 5:13 pm

I hope this doesnt sound rude......but I hope your not that naive and ill-informed as that "imbalance of the racism"  statement came off.


The hatred and the bigotry of that segment of American society, in the 1960's, was just as focused on extermination as the Nazi party was...that kind of hate always is.The only difference is that they didnt have the power to go that far.But give them an inch and they will take a mile.Segregation was the best they could "legally" achive, but dont kidd yourself and think they didnt want or plan on exterminations.


And the entertainment industry , and its clientele,of the time and the one that preceded it, is as guilty of promoting that brand of hatred and injustice.


Sorry but the "imbalance of the racism " you speak of just didnt exsist.


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Broadstorm

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 828

Report this Dec. 02 2011, 5:12 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Dec. 01 2011, 5:13 pm

>

>I hope this doesnt sound rude......but I hope your not that naive and ill-informed as that "imbalance of the racism"  statement came off.

id="yui_3_2_0_15_1322787296962194">The hatred and the bigotry of that segment of American society, in the 1960's, was just as focused on extermination as the Nazi party was...that kind of hate always is.The only difference is that they didnt have the power to go that far.But give them an inch and they will take a mile.Segregation was the best they could "legally" achive, but dont kidd yourself and think they didnt want or plan on exterminations.

id="yui_3_2_0_15_1322787296962169">And the entertainment industry , and its clientele,of the time and the one that preceded it, is as guilty of promoting that brand of hatred and injustice.

id="yui_3_2_0_15_1322787296962169">Sorry but the "imbalance of the racism " you speak of just didnt exsist.

>


Perhaps I was unclear.  I was referring to the degree to which it was taken.  I agree that segregation is wrong  Yes, there were (and still are) some who wanted to exterminate all non-causasians, but fortunately not enough to pull it off..  BTW, you made my point for me... again.  "The hatred and the bigotry of that segment of American society" to use your exact words, implies that it was not everyone.  Your continued insistence that something that happened in a country when bad things were happening without going along with those bad things is equivalent to those who are doing the bad things in your persistent use of the Nazi comparison is a gross overgeneralization.  Again, just because bad things were happening in a country during a certain period in its history, doesn't mean that everyone in that country who had a choice was involved in it.  You want to keep using the Nazi reference to compare to something which even you admitted was not about hatred, so you are using an overgeneralization to justify Sisko's overgeneralization.  This things were bad in that country in that period so everything about it is bad is a dangerous mindset.  Do you consider everyone who was a citizen of an Axis country during WW2 evil?

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 02 2011, 1:28 pm

Quote: Broadstorm @ Dec. 02 2011, 5:12 am

>Perhaps I was unclear.  I was referring to the degree to which it was taken.  I agree that segregation is wrong  Yes, there were (and still are) some who wanted to exterminate all non-causasians, but fortunately not enough to pull it off..  BTW, you made my point for me... again.  "The hatred and the bigotry of that segment of American society" to use your exact words, implies that it was not everyone.  Your continued insistence that something that happened in a country when bad things were happening without going along with those bad things is equivalent to those who are doing the bad things in your persistent use of the Nazi comparison is a gross overgeneralization.  Again, just because bad things were happening in a country during a certain period in its history, doesn't mean that everyone in that country who had a choice was involved in it.  You want to keep using the Nazi reference to compare to something which even you admitted was not about hatred, so you are using an overgeneralization to justify Sisko's overgeneralization.  This things were bad in that country in that period so everything about it is bad is a dangerous mindset.  Do you consider everyone who was a citizen of an Axis country during WW2 evil?

>


I never made any statement that implies it was everyone in the 60's era, and you yourself pointed out that not every Germen in thar era was involved in the Nazi party and its actions .....so again, I dont see how you can say theres a big imblance here.

What I'm claiming is that what was done in the 60's, by some, was based on the same types of hate as what the Nazi party did..........So, when did I admit otherwise?/

Do I consider every citizen of the Axis bad????No, but I can understand if someone doesnt want to partake in a "THEAMED" party that Glorifies the place and time when the Axis was in power.

And that is all Sisko was doing, He didnt hate Vic, he simply disliked what the program represented, that program glorified all the aspects of that era, including idealised  depictions of some of those responceble for the injustices,with out any of the reality of it.


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Broadstorm

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POSTS: 828

Report this Dec. 03 2011, 3:49 am

But you continue to compare a type of club that existed when there was bigotry going on around it without participating in or glorifying it to Nazi stuff, a faction focused on hatred.  If the simulation that by your own admission did not promote hatred, then why do you insist on comparing it to something that is all about hatred?  That is the point I have been trying to get across.  If you had mentioned something about a German club rather than a Nazi club, and someone had a problem with it 400 years after Germany was a hostile force because they equate German with Nazi, then that is what Sisko was doing.


I'll give you some examples to try to get my point across.  They are not exactly the same situation, but they are true stories.


A woman who is African American flies to Europe, gets of a plane & goes to a store.  She is denied access to the store, argues & still is not allowed in.  She complains about racsim.  Her claim of racism fails to take into consideration that the store was closed, and that the emloyee handed her something listing the store hours & told her she could come back the next day to shop during business hours.  Who is the racist one in this example, the person who refused a customer access to a closed store, or the person who claimed racism even though the store was closed and she was invited to come back when the store was open?


A firefighter on the scene of an auto accident sees a paramedic with a patient.  The patient is in the car, and the paramedic needs more room to work so she is pushing on the door while 2 civilians are pulling on the door, but due to the damage to the car, they can't get it opened any further even with the 3 of them working together.  The paramedic had a patient & the civilians should have been cleared from the scene although I do acknowledge that they were trying to help.  The paramedic & the 2 civilians were all women.  The firefighter, a man, walked over & forced the door open further to allow the paramedic to get back to her patient.  One of the civilians made a comment about the firefighter needing to show off because he was a guy.  Who was the sexist one in that example, the firefighter who enabled a paramedic to get back to treating the patient, or the civilian who assumed that the firefighter's motivation must have been to show off based only on his gender?

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 03 2011, 7:16 pm

I dont see how your examples are on point.They are examples of those that refuse to see things have changedm, Siskos reaction was one of respect for what that change cost.His issue was of the depiction of a period in time, that in reality was full of race hate, as if it never happened.


I continue to compare it because its a fair comparison.In the 1960's such clubs did exsist, they did participate and to some extent, glorify such hatered.But the Fontain program omitted those factors.The simulation that I suggest in my example would do the same.


And I did in fact say it would be a Germany club, set in the WW2 era, and would undoubtaly feature a Nazi eliment, not that it would only focuse on the Nazi party.Again, the Vic program was a idealized reflectional of the times, removing all the negitive of the period, how is my example any different?


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Broadstorm

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POSTS: 828

Report this Dec. 04 2011, 4:11 am

My point is that Sisko was commenting about the entire country in that period because of the problems.  Your comparison using the Nazi element to explain Sisko's position by definition implies hatred even though you are comparing it to a type of club of which some, not all, were racist.  Given that there was nothing racist in this club, then your example of a German themed club would only be an appropriate comparison if it did not include any symbols of hatred.  If the simulation did include symbols of racism, then your comparison would be valid.  Based on that, you seem to be comparing the entire country of the U.S. in that period to the Nazi party.  If you were comparing the KKK to the Nazis as each was a racist faction intent on extermination, then I would agree with you as the biggest difference between them was how far they got, not how far they wanted to go.  If you were comparing 1940s Germany with 1960s U.S. as each was a country in which some, but not all, were intent on exterminations of anyone who was different, then I would find your comparison valid.  Some, not all, of these clubs were segregated so the type of club is not categorically racist.  To lump them all into the category of racism is an overgeneralization.  My examples were intended to point out that overgeneralizing just because of things that have happened in the past is still wrong.  Much of the change came at a high price.  The minority suffered casualties in the struggle.  By no means do I deny or downplay that, but  the fact that not all of the majority agreed with the things that were happening helped the process.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 04 2011, 5:34 am

I think the problem here is that you just don't see the reality of the issue in question.

as I already pointed out.....The simulation did INDEED include symbols of racism, that symbol was the era itself, the setting of a 1960's Las Vegas lounge itself was a symbol of the injustice because it was the type of establishment that Sisko wouldn't have been allowed into as a norm,on his own merits, at the time.

Just like today,all the good that can be found is going to be over shadowed by the bad, the mis-deed, the injustice,, whats going to be remembered and felt the most is the bad.Its a shame but its pretty much true.No matter how much good you will be able to find in 1960's America its going to be drowned out by the struggles in the civil right movement.

Bottom line, the America of the 1960's is a symbol of racism.

I'm sure some of these clubs weren't segregated, but I'm also pretty sure that came about because of the black performers that refused to work at these clubs, not because the club owners took a moral stance against hate.Likewise, I'm sure not all the majority agreed with what was going on, but it didnt stop the injustice of the time.

Broadstorm

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 828

Report this Dec. 04 2011, 2:15 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Dec. 04 2011, 5:34 am

>

>I think the problem here is that you just don't see the reality of the issue in question.

as I already pointed out.....The simulation did INDEED include symbols of racism, that symbol was the era itself, the setting of a 1960's Las Vegas lounge itself was a symbol of the injustice because it was the type of establishment that Sisko wouldn't have been allowed into as a norm,on his own merits, at the time.

Just like today,all the good that can be found is going to be over shadowed by the bad, the mis-deed, the injustice,, whats going to be remembered and felt the most is the bad.Its a shame but its pretty much true.No matter how much good you will be able to find in 1960's America its going to be drowned out by the struggles in the civil right movement.

Bottom line, the America of the 1960's is a symbol of racism.

I'm sure some of these clubs weren't segregated, but I'm also pretty sure that came about because of the black performers that refused to work at these clubs, not because the club owners took a moral stance against hate.Likewise, I'm sure not all the majority agreed with what was going on, but it didnt stop the injustice of the time.

>


I do see the reality of the issue.  I have repeatedly pointed out that I understand things that you keep saying I am too stupid to understand.  There was a large portion of the country that was racist, the portion that you referred to as "that segment" but not the entire country.  If you can't understand the difference between "that segment" and the entire country then it is you who fails to see the reality of the situation.  As I said, if you wanted to compare a hateful faction to a hateful faction such as the KKK to the Nazi party, then I would agree that would be a very valid comparison.  If you wanted to compare 2 different countries that at some point had a significant portion of its population that was racist, and becoming a powerful force, then you would have a valid point, but you keep comparing a faction within a country to an entire country.  Get someone to explain the diffference to you before you further insult me.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 04 2011, 5:51 pm

I NEVER said you were too stupid to understand ANYTHING , nor did I have any intention for anything I said to be taken that way, so if anything said gave you that impression I'm truly sorry.


But I still feel your just not understanding how the time would have felt to some.Small segment, large segment, how big the segment really was is pretty irreverent when you compare it to what that segment was able to institutionalize.All the injustice of the period was relatively supported, even if from behind close doors, by those in power, by the US government.


There really isint a "difference" between any segment and what would have been viewed as the  entire country because for a long time, the so called official body of the country condoned ,supported and in many cases, practiced the very same type of hate and discrimination.And the goverment did so well before the 1960's and it continued well after.


Just look at black wallstreet.


1960's America is as much a symbol of hate/injustice any hate group you can name.It may be unfair to make that claim in your eyes, and it might be unfair to the segment that didnt agree with the behavior............but like I said, the bad of a time is going to outweight the good.Its like a stain you just cant remove.Like it or not, but that era in America is irefutable linked with the struggles of the civil rights movement.


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