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When is fanfic not fanfic?

Treknoir

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1784

Report this Mar. 21 2011, 8:03 am

Quote: toranaprem @ Mar. 20 2011, 2:43 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

Exactly. And yet it is "Mary Sue" this "Mary Sue" that. Yes, you hear about "Gary Stus" now and then, but not seriously. Author avatars for men (James Bond, Luke Skywalker, Jim Kirk, action movie heroes ad naseum) are still more often then not taken seriously by the larger culture.

I mean, for goodness sake, Roddenberry has admitted that he envisioned Kirk and Spock as the twin parts of his own soul, and we all worship that vision even when those guys were often written into rather silly and unbelievable situations and feats of extraordinary valorism, yadayada.

I agree that there are poorly written stories out there that are purely author wish fulfillment. I mean...no duh! But given the way male wish fulfillment is glorified in mass media, and how quickly the term "Mary Sue" is bandied about and how female authored and oriented works are degraded in the majority culture in general (as OtakuJo) so rightly brings up in regard to the romance genre (much of which is crap and some of which is genuinely top notch just like anything else, as Sturgeon famously said 99% of EVERYTHING is crap, so no reason to go bashing on particular genres as if they're somehow more crappy then the mainstream domestic drama that is ALSO A GENRE) is what worries me. I mean, there is still this attitude that the science fiction written by women isn't REAL science fiction. It's almost impossible to get published as a female scifi author, and the genre is so much smaller than something say, like oh the fantasy genre, because it is such a elistist bastion of sexism half of the time, and frankly, women's writing is POPULAR, it always has been. With women AND men readers.

I majored in literature and one of the most earth-shattering things I learned is that women have been writing and publishing for a very long time. As a youth I was lied to, told women weren't allowed to write, that's why we didn't study their works.

That's BS.

They were writing. They were selling. Yes, under pennames and pseudonyms, but often under their real names too.

It's not that their writing wasn't there, is that historically academia has considered it "popular fiction" and thus not "literary".

Luckily my feminist lit professors broke the blinders of that lie we were told and that is still being sold to too many of our daughters.

Women's writing about extraordinary women characters is jumped all over at the slightest provocation in my experience, whereas the dominant extraordinary male characters of male authors are largely given an uncritical pass.


Pseudonyms or using initials rather than their full first and middle names. It all goes back to maleness, in particular white maleness, as being the default for humanity and its ideals. Anything outside that "norm" is perceived as different or less than.


And to be fair, as an avid comic reader ( I really don't like most current titles, I feel old), I readily admit that 100% of the storylines, plots, and tropes are ridiculous.


It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want. - Spock

captainharder

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 173

Report this Mar. 21 2011, 11:53 am

Quote: OtakuJo @ Mar. 17 2011, 8:33 pm

>

>Some people do consider the pocketbooks to be fanfiction... I am not sure that it makes that much difference to the stories what you happen to consider them.

>The original question however is on whether a fan-written piece of unauthorised (unpublished) fiction should go on a site for fanfic or for "original" stories,

>And the answer is clearly that it is fanfiction, since it is set in the Star Trek universe. Therefore it belongs on the fanfiction site.

>(If you have read the rules for fictionpress.com and fanfiction.net, they do state quite clearly that one is for fanfiction stories and the other for "original" work ~~ ie. not set in someone else's 'verse. Neither allows work that belongs on the other site.)

>ps Lizybet: My suggestion remains the same. fanfiction.net -- category, Star Trek: Other.

>


I musy wholly agree. Otherwise, there is no point in all the ST books I've read/collected.


I am neither important enough to hold for ransom, nor radical enough to be considered dangerous. I am a simple public servant.

toranaprem

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 621

Report this Mar. 21 2011, 1:26 pm

Quote: Treknoir @ Mar. 21 2011, 8:03 am

Quote: toranaprem @ Mar. 20 2011, 2:43 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>

Exactly. And yet it is "Mary Sue" this "Mary Sue" that. Yes, you hear about "Gary Stus" now and then, but not seriously. Author avatars for men (James Bond, Luke Skywalker, Jim Kirk, action movie heroes ad naseum) are still more often then not taken seriously by the larger culture.

I mean, for goodness sake, Roddenberry has admitted that he envisioned Kirk and Spock as the twin parts of his own soul, and we all worship that vision even when those guys were often written into rather silly and unbelievable situations and feats of extraordinary valorism, yadayada.

I agree that there are poorly written stories out there that are purely author wish fulfillment. I mean...no duh! But given the way male wish fulfillment is glorified in mass media, and how quickly the term "Mary Sue" is bandied about and how female authored and oriented works are degraded in the majority culture in general (as OtakuJo) so rightly brings up in regard to the romance genre (much of which is crap and some of which is genuinely top notch just like anything else, as Sturgeon famously said 99% of EVERYTHING is crap, so no reason to go bashing on particular genres as if they're somehow more crappy then the mainstream domestic drama that is ALSO A GENRE) is what worries me. I mean, there is still this attitude that the science fiction written by women isn't REAL science fiction. It's almost impossible to get published as a female scifi author, and the genre is so much smaller than something say, like oh the fantasy genre, because it is such a elistist bastion of sexism half of the time, and frankly, women's writing is POPULAR, it always has been. With women AND men readers.

I majored in literature and one of the most earth-shattering things I learned is that women have been writing and publishing for a very long time. As a youth I was lied to, told women weren't allowed to write, that's why we didn't study their works.

That's BS.

They were writing. They were selling. Yes, under pennames and pseudonyms, but often under their real names too.

It's not that their writing wasn't there, is that historically academia has considered it "popular fiction" and thus not "literary".

Luckily my feminist lit professors broke the blinders of that lie we were told and that is still being sold to too many of our daughters.

Women's writing about extraordinary women characters is jumped all over at the slightest provocation in my experience, whereas the dominant extraordinary male characters of male authors are largely given an uncritical pass.

Pseudonyms or using initials rather than their full first and middle names. It all goes back to maleness, in particular white maleness, as being the default for humanity and its ideals. Anything outside that "norm" is perceived as different or less than.

And to be fair, as an avid comic reader ( I really don't like most current titles, I feel old), I readily admit that 100% of the storylines, plots, and tropes are ridiculous.


Yes. Absolutely. What you said about white male normativity all the way.


"What will they find when I am ripped apart? 'I love you, captain' written on my heart."

Treknoir

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1784

Report this Mar. 21 2011, 1:28 pm

Quote: toranaprem @ Mar. 21 2011, 1:26 pm

Quote: Treknoir @ Mar. 21 2011, 8:03 am

Quote: toranaprem @ Mar. 20 2011, 2:43 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>

>

Exactly. And yet it is "Mary Sue" this "Mary Sue" that. Yes, you hear about "Gary Stus" now and then, but not seriously. Author avatars for men (James Bond, Luke Skywalker, Jim Kirk, action movie heroes ad naseum) are still more often then not taken seriously by the larger culture.

I mean, for goodness sake, Roddenberry has admitted that he envisioned Kirk and Spock as the twin parts of his own soul, and we all worship that vision even when those guys were often written into rather silly and unbelievable situations and feats of extraordinary valorism, yadayada.

I agree that there are poorly written stories out there that are purely author wish fulfillment. I mean...no duh! But given the way male wish fulfillment is glorified in mass media, and how quickly the term "Mary Sue" is bandied about and how female authored and oriented works are degraded in the majority culture in general (as OtakuJo) so rightly brings up in regard to the romance genre (much of which is crap and some of which is genuinely top notch just like anything else, as Sturgeon famously said 99% of EVERYTHING is crap, so no reason to go bashing on particular genres as if they're somehow more crappy then the mainstream domestic drama that is ALSO A GENRE) is what worries me. I mean, there is still this attitude that the science fiction written by women isn't REAL science fiction. It's almost impossible to get published as a female scifi author, and the genre is so much smaller than something say, like oh the fantasy genre, because it is such a elistist bastion of sexism half of the time, and frankly, women's writing is POPULAR, it always has been. With women AND men readers.

I majored in literature and one of the most earth-shattering things I learned is that women have been writing and publishing for a very long time. As a youth I was lied to, told women weren't allowed to write, that's why we didn't study their works.

That's BS.

They were writing. They were selling. Yes, under pennames and pseudonyms, but often under their real names too.

It's not that their writing wasn't there, is that historically academia has considered it "popular fiction" and thus not "literary".

Luckily my feminist lit professors broke the blinders of that lie we were told and that is still being sold to too many of our daughters.

Women's writing about extraordinary women characters is jumped all over at the slightest provocation in my experience, whereas the dominant extraordinary male characters of male authors are largely given an uncritical pass.

Pseudonyms or using initials rather than their full first and middle names. It all goes back to maleness, in particular white maleness, as being the default for humanity and its ideals. Anything outside that "norm" is perceived as different or less than.

And to be fair, as an avid comic reader ( I really don't like most current titles, I feel old), I readily admit that 100% of the storylines, plots, and tropes are ridiculous.

Yes. Absolutely. What you said about white male normativity all the way.


Torana, I don't always agree with your views, but I always leave your posts thinking. Darn you!


 


It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want. - Spock

toranaprem

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 621

Report this Mar. 21 2011, 3:46 pm

Quote: Treknoir @ Mar. 21 2011, 1:28 pm

Quote: toranaprem @ Mar. 21 2011, 1:26 pm

Quote: Treknoir @ Mar. 21 2011, 8:03 am

Quote: toranaprem @ Mar. 20 2011, 2:43 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>

>

>

Exactly. And yet it is "Mary Sue" this "Mary Sue" that. Yes, you hear about "Gary Stus" now and then, but not seriously. Author avatars for men (James Bond, Luke Skywalker, Jim Kirk, action movie heroes ad naseum) are still more often then not taken seriously by the larger culture.

I mean, for goodness sake, Roddenberry has admitted that he envisioned Kirk and Spock as the twin parts of his own soul, and we all worship that vision even when those guys were often written into rather silly and unbelievable situations and feats of extraordinary valorism, yadayada.

I agree that there are poorly written stories out there that are purely author wish fulfillment. I mean...no duh! But given the way male wish fulfillment is glorified in mass media, and how quickly the term "Mary Sue" is bandied about and how female authored and oriented works are degraded in the majority culture in general (as OtakuJo) so rightly brings up in regard to the romance genre (much of which is crap and some of which is genuinely top notch just like anything else, as Sturgeon famously said 99% of EVERYTHING is crap, so no reason to go bashing on particular genres as if they're somehow more crappy then the mainstream domestic drama that is ALSO A GENRE) is what worries me. I mean, there is still this attitude that the science fiction written by women isn't REAL science fiction. It's almost impossible to get published as a female scifi author, and the genre is so much smaller than something say, like oh the fantasy genre, because it is such a elistist bastion of sexism half of the time, and frankly, women's writing is POPULAR, it always has been. With women AND men readers.

I majored in literature and one of the most earth-shattering things I learned is that women have been writing and publishing for a very long time. As a youth I was lied to, told women weren't allowed to write, that's why we didn't study their works.

That's BS.

They were writing. They were selling. Yes, under pennames and pseudonyms, but often under their real names too.

It's not that their writing wasn't there, is that historically academia has considered it "popular fiction" and thus not "literary".

Luckily my feminist lit professors broke the blinders of that lie we were told and that is still being sold to too many of our daughters.

Women's writing about extraordinary women characters is jumped all over at the slightest provocation in my experience, whereas the dominant extraordinary male characters of male authors are largely given an uncritical pass.

Pseudonyms or using initials rather than their full first and middle names. It all goes back to maleness, in particular white maleness, as being the default for humanity and its ideals. Anything outside that "norm" is perceived as different or less than.

And to be fair, as an avid comic reader ( I really don't like most current titles, I feel old), I readily admit that 100% of the storylines, plots, and tropes are ridiculous.

Yes. Absolutely. What you said about white male normativity all the way.

Torana, I don't always agree with your views, but I always leave your posts thinking. Darn you!

 


Haha...wow, thank you! I think?


"What will they find when I am ripped apart? 'I love you, captain' written on my heart."

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